Diesel SD33T NV4500 SX4

[Alcology]

This thread has some really cool information!  Thanks!  Good luck with everything, I'm looking forward to how it turns out.  Also, I expected some harsher words on the diesel choice conversation honestly, since this is an internet forum.  BUT, way to be super classy guys, that's what this place is all about!  C3: cool, calm, and collected.  You fellas got egged.   

[carnuck]

Dang! The Peugeot with XD3T 2.5L turbo diesel I was going to buy got pulled from CL just before I got the cash to buy it. It was already 5 speed, so I only had to swap the input shaft and bell to a Jeep BA 10/5 trans and make it work. Far better motor than the Renault 2.1TD POS Jeep used in XJs.

[captspillane]

The Peugot diesel compares directly to the Iron Duke. The Jeep transmission you plan on using with it has a terrible reputation. I would never entertain that as a possibility for conversion

Here are some updates to the stock comparison numbers I gave earlier. I added the Peugot, Renault, Cummins 6BT and 4BT, XJ V6, XJ MPI 2.5L and 81 VW Rabbit 1.6L. I also added the whopping number of XJ's produced. There were more Jeep Cherokees made each individual year than the grand total of AMC Eagles made over nearly a decade. Obviously horsepower and torque does not tell the whole story since a diesel motor makes much more torque at lower RPMs, but it takes longer to spin up and accelerate. It’s a different driving experience and ideal for different uses.

I do consider horsepower and torque a parameter to restrict the available options. Considering the time and expense of a conversion, I would not install a motor with less power than a 258. Even if the VW Rabbit wasn’t front wheel drive I would never consider an engine with only 52 HP for an AMC Eagle. Most cars make our Eagles look like indestructible tanks. We need more power to go down the road comfortably. I consider the stock 258 the bare minimum power to make the Eagle worth driving. I consider the Iron Duke power to be the bare minimum to even get the Eagle down the road, since it isn’t enough power to get a tiny SX4 up a tall hill at speeds faster than 40 MPH. That's pathetic.

-AMC-
AMC 258: 115 HP and 210 ftlbs
1971 VAM 282: 200 HP and 280 ftlbs
1995 4.0: 190 HP and 230 ftlbs
Jeep Stroker 4.7L: 260 HP and 340 ftlbs
151 Iron Duke: 82 HP and 125 ftlbs
150 MPI 2.5L in 1990 XJ: 130 Hp and 139 ftlbs
1971 AMC 401: 330 HP and 430 ftlbs
1976 AMC 401: 215 HP and 320 ftlbs
Common 401 Maximum Potential: 420 HP and 470 ftlbs
1971 AMC 304: 210 HP and 300 ftlbs
1976 AMC 304: 120 HP and 220 ftlbs
1971 AMC 360: 295 HP and 395 ftlbs
1981 AMC 360: 125 HP and 220 ftlbs

-Chevy and Fords-
1982 SBC 305: 145 HP and 240 ftlbs
1987 SBC 350: 245 HP and 345 ftlbs
1997 SBC 350: 285 HP and 325 ftlbs
1993 Ford 302 GT: 205 HP and 275 ftlb
2004 Ford Mustang: 260 HP and 302 ftlb
GM 2.8L used in 84-86 XJs: 115 HP and 145 ftlbs

-Diesels-
Nonturbo SD33: 92 HP
Turbo SD33T 3.3L: 110 HP and 180 ftlbs
1982 GM 6.2L: 155 HP and 240 ftlbs
2000 GM 6.5L: 215 HP and 540 ftlbs
Mercedes 300D 5 cylinder 3.0L: 125 HP and 180 ftlbs
1989 5.9L Dodge Cummins 6BT: 160 HP and 400 ftlbs
Cummins 3.9L 4BT: 130HP and 355 ftlbs
2006 6.6L GMC 2500HD Duramax: 360 HP and 650 ftlbs
Peugot XDST 2.5L Turbodiesel: 95 HP and 133 ftlbs
Renault 2.1 Turbodiesel in U.S. XJs: 85 HP and 132 ftlbs
Italian VM 2.5L Turbodiesel in Overseas XJs: 140 HP and 236 ftlbs
1981 VW Rabbit 1.6L Diesel: 52 HP and 71.5 ftlbs

There were 30,044 Eagle SX4s and 6,123 Eagle Kammbacks produced. A total of 197,449 AMC Eagles were produced from 1980 to 1988. In comparison there were 211,225 Ford Mustangs produced in the single year of 1988, and 153,134 in 2003 alone. There was 2,884,172 Jeep XJs produced total, including 286,463 units in 1996 alone. There were 272,711 total Scout IIs produced from 1973 to 1980. 4,222 non-turbo SD33 Scouts were produced from 1976 to 1979, and 5,960 turbo SD33T Scouts produced in late 1979 and 1980.

[carnuck]

I actually had good luck with my BA 10/5 because it was rebuilt by a Renault/Peugeot tech here in Seattle ($1400 isn't cheap though!) and he noted the oil used by Jeep was too thick to lube the counter shaft (and Jeep cheaped out by using an end bushing rather than a needle bearing) and the end clearances on the bearings and shafts were too sloppy.
   I pounded harshly on mine for nearly 160,000 miles and sold it still working. I agree it's not good enough for a beefed up 4.0L and certainly not a stroker, but it was built for the peugeot diesel.

   The one I looked at was an '87 505 with 2,498 cc "XD3TE" turbocharged diesel engine fitted with an intercooler, developing 110-115 hp (79 kW), was introduced in 1987. (only year available in the US too)

[carnuck]

If anyone is interested in the Peugeot motor, here's a decent forum
http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1896-conversion-of-a-na-xd3p-into-a-xd3te-with-turbo-and-intercooler/

[shanebo]

Wow, you've done your homework captspillane! thats an impressive bit of info there!!

[captspillane]

Thanks much! Here is something I'm very interested in. Its a 1977 Scout Terra already converted to the axles, transmission, and 6BT Diesel Cummins 12V from a 1992 Dodge Pickup. Its for sale on the Scout forum for $7500 in Sussex NJ. I'm seriously considering buying it since this is exactly what I was planning on creating.

It proves that a 6BT fits into a Scout, which also means it will fit into my CJ8 Scrambler. The turbo unit may prevent it from fitting into an AMC Eagle, but its a possibility. I was mostly concerned about the overall length of the motor fitting behind the radiator.

[shanebo]

  ....I LIKE!! And a great price at that...I can guarentee if I had 7500, that would be in my garage quicker than my wife could raise her hand to slap me one.

[captspillane]

I came close to buying a NV4500 transmission recently for this project. That’s when I stumbled over something very confusing.

The best NV4500 to find for an AMC engine is one from a gasoline dodge truck, '93 to '01. Those have a 4WD adaptor that bolts to our Eagle transfer cases as well as a 23 spline output shaft. The input shaft is the exact same nose, 1-1/8" x 10 spline and .750" pilot nose, as our T5s. The shaft is an 1/8" longer than a T5 shaft, so a spacer is cheap and readily available to go between a stock AMC bellhousing and the new trans. The end of your transmission to the front of the bellhousing will be 26 1/8” long. (A T5 is 21 3/4" long, an AX15 is 24” long, and a TF727 is 22 1/2" long)

If you find a dodge diesel NV4500 the rear 4WD housing is correct but the spline count is wrong. You need a new output shaft installed for 23 spline. The input shaft also needs to be changed. The Dodge diesel's have a 1-1/4" x 10 spline and .750" nose x 7-5/8" long. You'll still need the bellhousing spacer. This is the next best option.

You can also find a '96 up GM NV4500. Those have an input shaft with a smaller pilot bearing nose and the whole shaft is also an inch shorter. You need to change that input shaft out for the gas dodge version. A bellhousing kit is available that keeps the GM input shaft, but discards the AMC shift linkages for a shorter unit. This is expensive but popular because it shaves an inch off the overrall length and makes the end product 25 1/8" long. The reason to avoid GM units is because the 4WD adaptor needs to be replaced with a Dodge unit to work, which is available in a kit for about $500.

What you can’t use is a ’93 or ’94 GM NV4500. That had a lower first gear than all the others. That was accomplished by a different number of teeth on the end of the input shaft. All the other input shafts are interchangeable except those, and you would need to swap in a longer dodge gas input shaft to work with the adaptor spacer.

What I still don’t understand is why you can’t use a 1995 and older NV4500 with the 1996 and up short bellhousing adaptor kit. It should have the same splines and length as the later GM NV4500. The best answer I found is that the 1995 and older GM units had an external slave cylinder that used a protrusion on the outside of the case to attach to. It also had a slightly different bolt pattern on the front. The protrusion from the casting is said to interfere with a driver side driveshaft. I bet you could grind off the protrusion from the casting and then drill and tap some holes to mate it to the available bellhousing, but that’s just a guess. I’m just going to keep looking for a Dodge unit instead of experimenting.

For my Scout, I can use any NV4500 with the higher first gear. The kit provides a new input  shaft that is long enough for International V8’s and turbodiesels.

[standup650]

your kinda my new hero!

[captspillane]

The reason I need an NV4500 is that no adaptor kit exists to install a smaller transmission behind a Scout. An NV4500 kit does exist. The Scout T19 has an odd very long input shaft.

I wish I could use a T5, AX15, or NV3550 with the Scout engine. The SD33T is too weak to justify anything stronger. I will be looking at the possibility of making my own spacer to go from the back of the block to an AMC bellhousing and clutch linkage. The hard part will be installing an AMC pressure plate on the Scout flywheel. If that can be accomplished by drilling and tapping, without messing up the balance of the flywheel, I think a custom spacer is the way to go.

An NV4500 is absurd overkill for an AMC Eagle. It’s a true truck transmission that shifts better than most, but is still very clunky and slow in comparison to a T5. It is also over an inch longer than it should be. It will create floorpan issues. I already have an extra four inches because of the length of the Scout SD33T bellhousing. I sure hope my AMC to Scout custom adaptor works, because that could shorten my drivetrain by as much as 8 inches.

In my case I'm also considering an NV4500 and Dana 60 axle behind my 401 V8 instead of the NV3550 and Dana 44 axles I have for her now. Even a stock 401 is not enough power to justify an NV4500, but I might go further in the future. Another thing to consider is that a TF727 is exactly as strong as an NV4500. As much as I love stickshift, it makes more sense to use an automatic transmission in a truck or extremely powerful car.

It’s true that the CJ10a tow pigs used a special TF727 with integral bellhousing that was compatible with the SD33T. I won’t even consider that option because the previous owner of my Scout tried it and it was terrible. The available gear ratios didn’t match up with the diesel engine. The tow pigs were considered a tractor instead of a car, so it worked for them. They didn’t go faster than 20 MPH.

[captspillane]

your kinda my new hero!

Why thank you! It took me three days of boredom here at sea on the company computer to figure all that out. I hope it benefits you.

[standup650]

Yes great info! This is why i love this site!

[carnuck]

The reason I need an NV4500 is that no adaptor kit exists to install a smaller transmission behind a Scout. An NV4500 kit does exist. The Scout T19 has an odd very long input shaft.

I wish I could use a T5, AX15, or NV3550 with the Scout engine. The SD33T is too weak to justify anything stronger. I will be looking at the possibility of making my own spacer to go from the back of the block to an AMC bellhousing and clutch linkage. The hard part will be installing an AMC pressure plate on the Scout flywheel. If that can be accomplished by drilling and tapping, without messing up the balance of the flywheel, I think a custom spacer is the way to go.

An NV4500 is absurd overkill for an AMC Eagle. It’s a true truck transmission that shifts better than most, but is still very clunky and slow in comparison to a T5. It is also over an inch longer than it should be. It will create floorpan issues. I already have an extra four inches because of the length of the Scout SD33T bellhousing. I sure hope my AMC to Scout custom adaptor works, because that could shorten my drivetrain by as much as 8 inches.

In my case I'm also considering an NV4500 and Dana 60 axle behind my 401 V8 instead of the NV3550 and Dana 44 axles I have for her now. Even a stock 401 is not enough power to justify an NV4500, but I might go further in the future. Another thing to consider is that a TF727 is exactly as strong as an NV4500. As much as I love stickshift, it makes more sense to use an automatic transmission in a truck or extremely powerful car.

It’s true that the CJ10a tow pigs used a special TF727 with integral bellhousing that was compatible with the SD33T. I won’t even consider that option because the previous owner of my Scout tried it and it was terrible. The available gear ratios didn’t match up with the diesel engine. The tow pigs were considered a tractor instead of a car, so it worked for them. They didn’t go faster than 20 MPH.

There is a Nissan 5 speed bell that would bolt to your motor (I don't know the trans designators) that IIRC is also from the 280ZX turbos that will bolt to the T5. I may have this confused with the Supra Turbo stuff because it's been almost 20 years since I messed with it.
   The 727 in the CJ10A tugs is a Mopar big block trans with extra heavy duty planetaries and more clutches (same as used in Dodge powered Motorhomes till '77 when they stopped making dump trucks, etc due to frame cracks from too high carbon steel)
   Export J10s used the CJ10A (sadly not turbo) in Australia and South America. The motor was also widely used in Chrysler Marine till @'82.
   My '82 Honcho has the same really long input shaft as your T19 and I seriously thought about the turbo diesel swap in it. (the engine frame horns from the CJ10A bolt right into the J10 since it used the same frame and not a "real" CJ one)

If you had the SD33 to Mopar big block adapter ring, you should be able to run any Mopar big block trans bell to a trans. I have the SAE 3 (I think) Mopar big block bell in my collection o stuff.

[carnuck]

Forgot to add http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/0_best-of-CJ-10A.html

CJ10A turned road worthy. Now the turbo version of the drivetrain is going into a Honcho