Diesel SD33T NV4500 SX4

[carnuck]

I worry about the rear axle because my family has broken three of them. They break from putting the car on two wheels, which bends the super thin axle tube and stresses the shaft and the C clip in ways it can't handle. The torque itself does not break them. On a front axle the shafts are inherently "full floating" design, so they are actually much stronger than they look. I do plan on trying to find an upgrade and fabbing up a standard differential mount at the crossmember for a generic engine swap option, but I also doubt I'll ever see a broken front axle from even my 401 V8. I'm not too worried about it.

What diff are you running? Non-C-clip D35s don't seem to do that. Of course switching to a D44 is a nice upgrade, but since you're doing diesel, I'd try to find a Mopar D60 from a B body (although they were more popular from the factory in Canada than down here)

[carnuck]

I'm pretty sure that means its 2.8L. SD33 means 3.3L diesel. I also have a complete 6.2L GM Diesel from a low mileage military truck I'm seriously considering to use with an Iron Duke bellhousing and NV3550 in an Eagle. Right now I'm still planning to use that with my CJ8 Scrambler.

It is indeed a 2.8L which should be fine for powering an MJ or Spirit commuter but it won't be speedy (no turbo option). Not mine but here's how they look/run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwHocrYt4_k
90 hp and 125 ft/lbs or torque

[captspillane]

I have not updated this thread since November because my computer refuses to open photobucket. Its an internet explorer issue where it downloads the whole thing, then sends a error message and says the site must be aborted. It does it to facebook about half the time and every time to photobucket. I downloaded firefox and it works fine, but once I hover over the area to copy paste the photo links it won't select it properly. There is no point in updating this if I can't post the pictures I have. At this point I have over 100 pictures I intended to post here just piling up. Its bothersome.

The SD33T International Scout is my current daily driver. I've also recently purchased a Scout Terra, which is the same long wheelbase body as my Scout Traveler but it has a different fiberglass top. The Terra is a halfcab truck style similar to the Jeep Scrambler while the Traveler is a full length fiberglass top. I plan on installing the GM 6.2L diesel engine into the Terra frame while leaving the SD33T alone. Once the swap is completed by stealing the custom 40 gallon diesel fuel cell from the Traveler, I'll remove the SD33T from my current daily driver and install that in an Eagle. I'll convert my beautiful Traveler into an AMC 401 TF727. International used the AMC 401 in several of their vehicles, so its an appropriate swap for several reasons. I'm a huge fan of the AMC V8s and I have a large collection of spare parts accumulating, especially with available transmissions. International made good motors and I have one in the Terra, but they have their own bellhousing pattern and are alien to me.

The SD33T is under powered for the heavy Scout. Its great for an Eagle because it has the exhaust outlet on one side and will be much easier to shoehorn under the Eagle hood than the 6.2L. I would never consider a smaller diesel engine than the 3.3L SD33T and I would never install a non turbo SD33. The SD33T is barely enough power for non-towing applications like an offroad rig, but it is terrible for towing or truck applications. For towing ability and a more appropriate match to the intended use, I'll need the larger 6.2L in the Scout.

[captspillane]

Here is a message I recieved here on the Nest. I'll post my reply in a seperate posting:



Ahoy Captain!

Thanks for the input on the Diesel SX4.  Sounds like you are well on the way to getting it on the road (or off the road, as the case may be).

I just located a SD33 and a 240D (w/manual tranny attached) both non-turbo on CL here in Oregon. 

I've been reviewing your diesel posts so far, and I'm trying to put together a partslist for my own conversion.  I want to get the order of operations written out before I start buying stuff, and well, you seem to be the mentor for this swap.

You responded to an earlier post of mine, and I appreciate the stance you have for the SD33.  What are the points of concern I should be looking at to mate the power to the transmission?  I currently have the 151 duke with an '80 4speed full-time 4WD tranny in the SX4. 

And... can you sell me on the reasons for not using the Benz 240D?  There are scads of them here in the NW, parts are readily available and I'd rather spend my time in the SX4 than waiting for parts to arrive.  Maybe this is just my ignorance of the scope of the swap. 

Probably gonna start this in a month, after I remodel the airstream trailer, but I'd like to get started collecting the parts.

Thanks for the in-depth and well informed sharing of information.  It is greately appreciated!

[captspillane]

Here is my reply to the message I just posted:



That’s awesome that you have an Iron Duke Eagle. They are the best to swap because you have the least emissions requirements, so the end product will be 50 state legal. First off your transmission is an SR4, which needs to be scrapped immediately. Don't trust your car to complete any trip until you have replaced it. I've broken 6 of those shift levers.

The transmission is the real bugger. I make it a personal requirement that the transfer case back stay stock. That’s why I only recommend an SD33T or GM 6.2L. For a transfer case I suggest the NP242, you'll want a low range and the 219 sucks even though it has a viscous coupler and is a better bolt in. I use the 242's open diff "Full-time 4WD" and it’s great for all wheel drive. The viscous coupler has very little impact in most conditions and isn't worth the maintenance issues. With the 242 you also have a "Part-time 4WD" where the front and rear outputs are locked, which is perfect for severe conditions or if you break a driveshaft.

I have never considered the Mercedes engines because I don't want to deal with transmission adaptation. It’s just not worth it. I personally suggest you look into finding a military 6.2L diesel.  That’s the easiest to install because you already have the Iron Duke bellhousing. It will bolt to the GM diesel if you switch to a slightly smaller 156 tooth flywheel from a gas GM engine and if you use a fresh Iron Duke starter. All bellhousing and motor mounts are the same as a small block Chevy gas engine, which is a great advantage of those diesels over any other truck diesels. They are also very easy to find because so many military trucks had them. You'll need a strong transmission, so a T18 to NV3550 adaptor from Advanced Adaptors will let you install an AX15 or NV3550 behind the SR4 bellhousing. The NV3550 is much stronger than an AX15, so look for one of those first. You'll retain your entirely stock clutch system, which is a huge advantage.

It’s shameful, but your old Iron Duke accelerates and feels more powerful than an SD33T. It is literally as powerful as an SD33. Keep that in mind before you start your conversion. Your Iron Duke with a T5 swapped in will reach 30 mpg highway, and with a low range it will do just fine on the trails. Generally the diesel conversion isn’t worth it. If you want towing ability the 4.0 conversion will have twice the power and three times the acceleration, with 25+ mpg and considerably less cost and effort to install. Do not expect to be able to tow with the SD33, it just can’t handle it. My SD33T Scout is my daily driver and I often yearn for the larger 6.2L. That’s also true of the Mercedes engines, they aren’t powerful enough for an extreme machine and there is no point in doing the conversion if you aren’t looking for an extreme machine.

I am still sticking with the SD33T because it’s perfect for what I want to make. I have a 4.0 6 speed SX4 for a daily driver and a 401 V8 for towing, so this one will never see those applications. The other advantages to using an SD33 include the transmission output. I’ll be using an NV4500 so it will mate up to all Jeep transfer cases. There is no other transmission option except the original T18 4 speed because the input shaft is so long. The NV4500 is only an option because the Scout community has someone who makes the conversion kit. The other huge advantage is it’s externally the same size as a 258 and it has the exhaust on one side. Putting a 6.2L in will suck because it has exhaust on both sides and you will have considerably more clearance issues all over the place.

Don’t forget that a diesel doesn’t start instantly. Jumping in the car, turning the key, and kicking up a rooster tail is not going to happen. Don’t expect to ever have a diesel vehicle as your only vehicle. You’ll eventually resent it and replace it.

Of course you should have a Cherokee Dana 44 axle with disc brake conversion in the rear, so you’ll have to plan on replacing and rebuilding the entire vehicle and restoring it along the way. The conversion itself is cheap and easy compared to the restoration of everything else. If you decide to go for the GM diesel, which is cheaper in several ways, you should still expect to spend at least 8 months and about 8 grand in the diesel conversion. A 4.0 conversion done very well should take about 4 months and three grand. The difference in fuel costs will never bridge that gap and the 4.0 is more practical.

Hope that helps. Once you have pulled the trigger and decided what engine and niche the vehicle will have, I can help discuss how to fit it in too. Enjoy!

[rollguy]

Although I have my own opinion about the best Diesel engine to use in an Eagle, I am anxious to see how your project works out.  It seems that you have been able to find the SD33T to use for your conversion, and even the very rarest of Scouts with one.  In all my years of working with Diesels and 4 wheel drives, I have never heard of an IH with a Diesel until you posted on this site.  It seems that with the rarity of this vehicle, it should be kept as stock as possible (just my opinion).  I can understand the feasibility of the SD33T, but I would have doubts about the benefit of putting a 6.2 in an Eagle.  It would seem that this engine is so much bigger and heavier than an Eagle can handle.   All the work involved in "shoehorning" that engine in there would not be worth the effort, even if they could be had cheap.  I am glad that not everyone that wants to do a Diesel swap in an Eagle, desires to use the same engine.  I have wanted to do an MB Diesel swap in an Eagle for a long time, but have not had the time to devote to the project.  That would be my engine of choice for many reasons, but mostly availability and cost.  The OM617 3.0L 5 cyl Turbodiesel will have plenty of power for an Eagle, and still get decent fuel mileage.  That engine in my 3,200 pound coupe propels it down the road very well.  I can imagine that an MB powered Eagle would feel about the same, since the size and weight of the two cars is similar....Rich

[carnuck]

I found a turbo Peugeot here for $1,000 that I considered doing the swap with (it had been in a front end accident that tore up it's sheet metal but not the motor.)

[captspillane]

Keep in mind that most people hear "AMC Eagle" and reply, "oh what a rare car I've never heard of it. Parts must be super expensive to come by and yours must be worth at least 30 grand at auction!" Of course those same people own brand new cars and pay three times the amount for any individual component in their car, wait longer for the parts to ship, and could buy a nice Eagle for the cost of one monthly payment. I've seen more Scouts on the road (one) than I have ever seen Eagle SX4s on the road (none my entire life). You sir have made that exact same assumption regarding the diesel Scouts. My Eagle SX4 is more rare, more capable, harder and more expensive to repair, and worth more. The Scout is cool and rare and all but it'll be even cooler, more capable, worth more, and more practical with the 6.2 installed.

The SD33T was a very common motor overseas and a very common industrial motor. There is multiple sources to purchase a fully rebuilt crate engine and have it delivered to your door. Parts are expensive and rare compared to the legendary 258, but they are more readily available and cheaper than a modern BMW. In all honesty one of the reasons I like the SD33T is that there are plenty of Scout owners on their forum who have tons of experience with these engines and because parts are so easy to come by. Of course I can rebuild my own motors, so I'm no more interested in paying 2 grand for an SD33T than I am paying that much for a crate 4.0 motor.

As far as whether a 6.2L is a good idea to put into an Eagle, consider that that a 4.0 puts out considerably more horsepower, spins up and accelerates considerably faster, and has considerably less cooling needs. The 6.2L benefits from being more rugged, a different torque curve with power at low RPMs which some people like myself prefer, and benefits from using fuel with more available potential energy. Actually the 6.2L is perfect for someone who wants to drive their diesel Eagle on a regular basis. At 150 hp its very slightly more powerful than the original 258, but still very humble and slow. It is easier to source an engine and easier to adapt to compatible transmissions. I would shift gears and install it in my Eagle if I intended to drive it every day. I would never consider a diesel with less horsepower than the 3.3L turbo SD33T at 115 hp. An Iron Duke Eagle is pitiful up hills and yet it still puts my Scout to shame. While driving the 6.2 you would crave a 4.0's power slightly less and have a car that can almost tow something. 

[captspillane]

The SD33T is externally the same as a 258 and has nearly the exact same torque and power output. The 6.2L GM diesel has nearly the exact same torque as a stock 4.0 and considerably less horsepower. The conversion is very hard to justify, if not impossible. A stroked MPI Jeep 4.7L is by far the best engine for the AMC Eagle.

Here are some stock comparison numbers:

-AMC-
AMC 258: 115 HP and 210 ftlbs
1971 VAM 282: 200 HP and 280 ftlbs
1995 4.0: 190 HP and 230 ftlbs
Jeep Stroker 4.7L: 260 HP and 340 ftlbs
151 Iron Duke: 82 HP and 125 ftlbs
1971 AMC 401: 330 HP and 430 ftlbs
1976 AMC 401: 215 HP and 320 ftlbs
Common 401 Maximum Potential: 420 HP and 470 ftlbs
1971 AMC 304: 210 HP and 300 ftlbs
1976 AMC 304: 120 HP and 220 ftlbs
1971 AMC 360: 295 HP and 395 ftlbs
1981 AMC 360: 125 HP and 220 ftlbs

-Chevy and Fords-
1982 SBC 305: 145 HP and 240 ftlbs
1987 SBC 350: 245 HP and 345 ftlbs
1997 SBC 350: 285 HP and 325 ftlbs
1993 Ford 302 GT: 205 HP and 275 ftlb
2004 Ford Mustang: 260 HP and 302 ftlb

-Diesels-
Nonturbo SD33: 92 HP
Turbo SD33T 3.3L: 110 HP and 180 ftlbs
1982 GM 6.2L: 155 HP and 240 ftlbs
2000 GM 6.5L: 215 HP and 540 ftlbs
Mercedes 300D 5 cylinder 3.0L: 125 HP and 180 ftlbs
1989 5.9L Dodge Cummins 6BT: 160 HP and 400 ftlbs
Cummins 3.9L 4BT: 130HP and 355 ftlbs
2006 6.6L GMC 2500HD Duramax: 360 HP and 650 ftlbs

Here is some trivia. There were 272,711 total Scout IIs produced from 1973 to 1980. 4,222 non-turbo SD33 Scouts were produced from 1976 to 1979, and 5,960 turbo SD33T Scouts produced in late 1979 and 1980.

There were 30,044 Eagle SX4s and 6,123 Eagle Kammbacks produced. A total of 197,449 AMC Eagles were produced from 1980 to 1988. In comparison there were 211,225 Ford Mustangs produced in the single year of 1988, and 153,134 in 2003 alone.

The GM 6.2L was available in full size Chevy trucks and suburbans from 1982 to 1993. It was slightly modified to become the 6.5L used from 1993 to 2000. It was also used in the 70,000 CUCV military trucks produced from 1983 to 1986 as well as the 300,000 plus military humvees made.

[rollguy]

You sir have made that exact same assumption regarding the diesel Scouts. 

It was not an assumption.  If you asked 10 people on the street (over 40 years old) if they have ever heard of a Diesel powered Scout, and asked the same folks if they have heard of an AMC Eagle, most if not all would not have a clue about the Scout, but would know what an AMC Eagle was.  They probably would also know someone that owned one, or owned one themself. We all are into our own different kinds of cars, and each person has different needs from a car.  There are many choices for engine swaps, and I am glad you have chosen the SD33T and that it will fit your needs.  You also have access to these engines, whereas I have access to the 5 cyl 'Benz Diesels.  I agree about the availability of GM 6.2's, but they are not practical for use in an Eagle IMO, so they are quickly ruled out.

[j2sax]

I am anxious to see which one of these projects hits the streets first! 

I would like to do a 4BT in an Eagle!  So far, I have too many other projects undone to start dreaming about another! 

Have a great week!

Jesse

[rollguy]

I am anxious to see which one of these projects hits the streets first! 

I would like to do a 4BT in an Eagle!  So far, I have too many other projects undone to start dreaming about another! 

Have a great week!

Jesse

I would like to see it done as well.  I would also like to see the finished SD33T Eagle project that captspillane is planning.  Then there is the MB 5 cyl Turbodiesel project that I would like to do.   Unfortunately, I am in California, so titling an Eagle with a Diesel is not an easy job.  There are so many emissions related hoops that need to be jumped through that I probably will not get the chance to ever do it.  That is why I hope to see someone else that is in a non-emissions inspection state do an Eagle Diesel conversion.   So far I have only seen (and driven) one Eagle powered by a Diesel, and I used to own it. Although I have never personally seen it, I have heard about another one that is owned by Ken (amcconcord)& Paula(Baby Eagle) Proulx in Rhode Island.  We (amceaglenest) have not heard from them for over 3 months.
I think the 4BT would be a great conversion, and can be done with ALL stock available parts from donor vehicles.  There would be no adapters needed anywhere, but only a little fabbing done for motor and trans/TC mounts.  However, finding the donor vehicles is the problem.  This is such a popular swap with the Jeep crowd, the donor vehicles are getting slim and expensive.  I still would like to see someone do one of these.  I would throw a couple eggs to the first guy that does an Eagle Diesel swap!
 

[captspillane]

Whoa I've been reading about the Cummins 6BT and 4BT for the first time just now. I barely knew they existed until you guys mentioned them today. They are inline engines, which means it is much easier to offset to make room for the Eagle front axle. The stock 4BT is rated at 130 HP and 355 ftlbs. Most importantly its compatible with the NV4500, which is the exact same transmission I'm using with the SD33T except without the longer input shaft conversion. The transmission options are always the most important factor and this one is even simpler than the GM diesel. It has slightly more power than the SD33T but literally twice the torque. Its likely more common and supported with more plentiful parts. Wow.

I'm convinced. I agree the 3.9L 4BT is the ideal diesel for an AMC Eagle. I do still consider the SD33T the factory diesel engine of choice from AMC in the mid-80's because it was used in several FSJ's and the CJ10, so its well worth it for me to continue with my conversion. Besides, I already have the engine and am invested into the project. It will complement the stock Eagle components well because it has nearly identical performance to an AMC 258. Will I still get eggs if I go ahead and upgrade to a 4BT in a second diesel conversion after I finish the SD33T?

I don't know much about the Mercedes Benz motors except that they have a very good reputation in terms of longevity. The power and torque is lackluster, but slightly better than the SD33T and an advantage in availability. For me to rank it as a feasible swap I would need to see documentation of people who have adapted a 23 spline New Process transfer case to it. The dimensions of the transmission may also be a problem. The transmisson and transfer case always make or break a potential swap. Do you have any conversion specifics worked out?

Right now I rank the possible diesel engines for an AMC vehicle to 1) 3.9L 4BT 2) SD33T and 3) GM 6.2L. The last one would be best for a CJ because there are SBC motor mount kits and radiators readily available for them. The SD33T is best for an Eagle that will retain its otherwise stock drivetrain and road use. The 4BT would be the best option for someone wanting to see a considerable difference in performance and who was willing to upgrade the axles to match the increased engine torque.

[rollguy]

 Will I still get eggs if I go ahead and upgrade to a 4BT in a second diesel conversion after I finish the SD33T?

You will get a double portion if you do both!

Thanks for all the horsepower and torque numbers you have researched.  Seeing them all on the same page gives a "birds eye view" (pardon the pun) of the available options. 
As far as the trans/TC for a 'Benz engine, I only have a few thoughts, but nothing actually made.   I like the thought of using the MB manual trans because it is very short, and would lend itself to a divorced TC very well.   The automatic is a little longer, but still not ruled out.  Low gear on these transmissions is lower than most others, and that would make it better when using a low range case.   If a non-MB trans is used, an adapter would need to be made to mate it to the engine.  I have seen it done where a guy cut the bell from an MB trans (about the center line of the converter around the circumference), and the trans being used in the same place.  A fixture was made, and the two parts welded together creating a trans that fit the TC in the rear, and the MB engine in the front.   It might even be possible to modify the stock trans adapter that is on the MB Diesel engine.   It is aluminum, and could be fabbed to fit most any trans.   I still have more thinking to do, and maybe some experimenting.....Rich

[68AMXGOPAC]

I allways grin at the "Horsepower rateings" between early 70's 401's and the later - it is only because of some mandate that they are so much lower in the later 70's.I make this rermark not remembering the exact reason for it's change. I have a 72 401 sitting on my engine stand in the shop all most completed,  along with a 390 that needs a total rebuild from sitting uncared for in a barn for years.Though the 390 is stock for my AMX, I am working on the 401 to go in it.
Capt. , allways enjoy reading your posts , and learn from them allmost everytime.