I started a head swap and internal refresh project a while ago and got side tracked before I got too far. I've started again, and inevitably am being side tracked by two more projects. Needless to say, the car's been sitting for a while, and will likely remain that way for at least a couple more months.
I'm worried about the engine seizing up while it's sitting. Right now, the valve cover and manifolds are off, so the ar isn't in running order (cant cycle fluids). That shouldn't expose the system to much more moisture than before, but it'll only get worse as I pull the head, get the machine work done, etc.
Can any of you more experienced builders lend me some tips that can help keep the engine from freezing up during this process?
Thanks!
for intake/exhaust it's common to stuff clean rags/towels into the ports. Make sure you count in and count out so you don't leave one behind. I wouldn't worry too much about the valve covers being off, just make sure you cover things well so you don't drop something in that doesn't belong and dust doesn't settle. Once the heads are off you can stuff some rags into the coolant channels. For the cylinders, spray lightly with WD40 or wipe a light coat of oil and stuff a rag or cover.
That should be sufficient, but others probably have better suggestions.
When I go to pull a motor apart, first I trickle water down the carb while low revving to clean out as much carbon as possible. Then you can trickle ATF or get engine fogging spray (boat shops and NAPA) to spray in till it stalls.
When you get it apart lube down all the internal and mating surfaces with oil.
Sta-Bil brand Fogging Oil. This stuff is great. http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SBL0/22001/N1737.oap?ck=Search_N1737_-1_-1&pt=N1737&ppt=C0139 (http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/SBL0/22001/N1737.oap?ck=Search_N1737_-1_-1&pt=N1737&ppt=C0139) Perfect preservative ingredients.
I also use this stuff on my tools. Drill chucks, mill & lathe surfaces, hammers, anything steel that rusts from humidity while not in use. Anything. Not too greasy, doesn't attract tons of dust. Perfect.
I'll stuff mildly doused clean red rags in intake and exhaust ports of an engine or openings in a transfer case, trans, etc. Douse the cheap red rags with ATF and stuff into opening after fogging with Sta-Bil. I'll wrap the whole thing with a construction-grade trash bag if I plan on storing it for a longer time and even duct-tape the bag closed(Gorilla tape is awesome)
Is there any easy way to rotate the crank while the head is still on? I sprayed a bit of wd40 in the manifold ports and plugged up the holes, but I'd really like to get everything to move once in a while :) Or is this a bad idea?
Quote from: blk-majik on February 19, 2013, 10:59:41 AM
Is there any easy way to rotate the crank while the head is still on? I sprayed a bit of wd40 in the manifold ports and plugged up the holes, but I'd really like to get everything to move once in a while :) Or is this a bad idea?
You should be able to put a large socket and ratchet or strong arm onto the bolt holding in the harmonic balancer and turn the engine that way. I'd say it would be a good idea to do that. Remove the spark plugs to make it easier to turn and then re-insert finger tight afterwards.
You gotta take the main drive pulley off to get to the harmonic balance, right? Figured I'd ask before I make more of a mess :)
Nope. It's in the middle of the belt pulleys and can be access from under the Eagle, even with the fan shroud in place.
I think I know which one it is. Does is have two pulleys with two belts on it? AKA crankshaft pulley. If that'st he one, trying to turn it, the bolt came out without the crank moving. I torqued to tighten, but was worried about a couple things. First, over-torquing. is that an issue here? Second, am I sure this is the right bolt? not really... hence why I'm asking :)
The one in the middle. If the motor doesn't turn and trans is in park (neutral with ebrake if stick) when turning forwards (tightening) then the motor is probably seized.
Remove the spark plugs and then try it.
Quote from: priya on February 20, 2013, 06:36:28 PM
Remove the spark plugs and then try it.
with no sparkys i bet it could be turned by hand if good.
Ok, i pulled 5 of the plugs... too lazy to pull the AC compressor today to get the 6th. Should that matter? Still not budging and I feel like I'll strip the bolt if I try any harder.
Just to make sure I'm doing it right, here's a pic taken from under the car, looking up. Am I working the right pulley? I can't imaging it being anything other than this. I loosened the belt that goes tot he PS pump. Do I need to loosen the other belt, too?
(http://i.imgur.com/UFrSAMR.jpg)
That's the right one. Undo the belts and if it still doesn't move, it's seized or the starter is stuck. (I've had LOTS of AMCs and Fords do that!)
Doesn't sound promising. Once you've verified that the starter isn't holding it up if it still doesn't turn try setting the motor upright and putting ATF in the spark plug holes, let it sit for a week or so and try it again.
Yea, no dice with both belts removed. The starter is below and behind the oil filter, right? Just un-bolt it?
Quote from: blk-majik on February 21, 2013, 02:03:57 PM
Yea, no dice with both belts removed. The starter is below and behind the oil filter, right? Just un-bolt it?
Right, just unbolt it.
Unbolt the starter and the wires. 2 bolts plus the wires?
Haven't looked in a very long time.
The starter is somewhat heavy if you are lying on your back underneath. Work it out carefully
and try not to it drop on any valuable body parts (human).
Lol thanks for the tip, Jim! I just got it out, and without that warning, I'd likely be wearing a nice shiner to work tomorrow.
drum roll please....... it still wont turn.
I dont have a funnel long enough to get ATF into the spark plug holes safely.
I started the tear down with the intent to swap in a 4.0 head. Is there any reason not to just take the head off at this point? I can't imagine that making it any more difficult to un-stick the engine. Only risk I see is that exposing the internals more might bind things up even more. Worst case, I might just swap a full 4.0 engine in instead of just the head....
I guess this is worth mentioning too: The car is currently in my garage, where it has been for the past year and change. However, this weekend it's getting towed to a buddy's house for some short-term (a couple months, maybe) storage in the woods behind his house. We'll cover it, but yea... ain't no garage. Reason being, we need to do a head swap and some other minor engine work to a miata 1.8L motor that's in a suzuki x90. long story. either way, that might be reason enough to leave the head on.
Did you try to spin the motor with the starter before pulling it?
As in by turning the key, or directly powering the starter solenoid? Yes. Didn't do anything... no sound at all.
There is no harm in removing the head now if you want. It'll give you a better view of the cylinders and a chance to see what's sticking the motor and how much corrosion is in the cylinders which is the likely cause of the motor not turning.
For the hurrah before I start pulling more stuff apart, I picked up a few bottles of Marvel Mystery Oil and injected some into each of the sparkplug holes... except the one that's blocked by the AC compressor. I just injected that into the exhaust and intake ports instead.
I'll let it sit for a while and give it another shot.
While I have the starter out, can anyone recommend a procedure to test it? I'd assume just feeding it 12v and seeing if it spins is about all it should take. Is there any more to it than that?
By the way, I stumbled upon this wiki. It rocks! not just this one article, but their entire site. Great resource, I wish i found this years ago.
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Freeing_a_stuck_engine
Quote from: blk-majik on February 22, 2013, 02:47:03 PM
While I have the starter out, can anyone recommend a procedure to test it? I'd assume just feeding it 12v and seeing if it spins is about all it should take. Is there any more to it than that?
That's it. Negative to the body of the starter, positive to the starter cable post.
Welp... I just realized the transmission is also bone dry. It's an automatic. My buddy who had the car for a few months before me changed the fluid and gasket, but didn't seal the pan properly... apparantly all the fluid drained out and he forgot to mention it until I called him today.
Would it be possible that the problem might be with the transmission, and not the engine? Ie, if the trans gears are frozen, would the engine turn? It's currently in park. My better judgement suggests that this is unrelated, but I'm obviously clueless :D Grasping for straws here
Not sure myself, but I think because the torque converter links the trans to the motor via a liquid connection rather than a solid mechanical link the motor should turn even if the transmission is seized.
On second thought perhaps its possible for the torque converter to seize up and not allow each side to move independently. Hopefully someone more knowlegeable than me will chime in, lol.
You need to undo the torque converter bolts, which you can't because the motor won't turn. Catch 22!
Anyone ever use one of these on a 258? http://www.jegs.com/p/Proform/Proform-Crank-Rotator/748260/10002/-1
I'm worried about stripping the crank pulley bolt, but not sure if it'll fit.
I've made them before. Just make a plate to fit the 3 bolts for the pulley and weld a socket in the middle.
Spoke to hubby about it and he says its conceivable that the transmission could fail badly enough to prevent the engine from turning over but he says the trans would have to be very badly screwed up.
Quote from: priya on February 22, 2013, 08:25:03 PM
Spoke to hubby about it and he says its conceivable that the transmission could fail badly enough to prevent the engine from turning over but he says the trans would have to be very badly screwed up.
I had an old Plymouth Road Runner that I screwed up on and mated the transmission to the motor wrong and it wouldn't turn over...
But along the same lines.. Bound up and nothing moving in it..
FWIW, starter seems dead. Direct power and it didn't do anything but smoke a bit. I put the car in neutral just for the heck of it... same result. Time to let the pentrating oil do it's magic! fingers crossed.
May as well unbolt the trans and see if that's the problem or not.
You would need a catch pan for the atf and the starter bolts to the trans. Wonder if it had a blown headgasket when parked?
No obvious indication of a blown head gasket, but it was low on coolant when we got it (and about all other fluids for that matter).
It rained the past few days and my buddy's yard where the other car is parked is super muddy, so I'll have the eagle for another week. I never disconnected a trans before. Any links to the general process? Or just some simple tips if it's not that difficult? Things I'm worried about: hidden bolts that are a pain to get to, how it's mounted (as in, will it fall), how to actually disengage it from the engine.
To be honest, if I'm going this far, I'm half tempted just to pull the motor and keep it in my garage while the rest of teh car gets stored. the mounts look easy enough to get to and the only stuff left to unhook would be some wiring, ac, and coolant hoses.
Let's put it this way... I've never done major work on a RWD vehicle before and I managed to remove the trans, swap the clutch and reassemble everything myself with no issues. If you have a transmission jack it makes things MUCH easier. Put the car up on jack stands on a level (preferably concrete) surface and it makes things alot easier. There are no mysteries with these cars.
Remove drive shafts, support trans, remove skid plate and cross member, lower trans a bit and support engine in front of the bell housing, remove shifter from inside the car, unbolt trans. and remove. That's basically it. It may be slightly different with an auto (I have the T4), but it's not *that* difficult. You can leave the bell housing on the engine for removal, there are 4 bolts holding the trans to the bell.
i have removed several automatics from eagles and unfortunately the bell and trans body are one piece not two. one thing to do is remove the transfer case (they are awkward and heavy so be careful) before you go after the trans. as for "hidden" bolts there are three at the top of the trans that can be a bit of a pain, but if you are flexible enough or have a really big extension you can get them easily enough.
can the motor and trans be removed together with an engine crain? If so, any idea what the weight? The trans is a TF3. I think both are going to have to come out of the car, anyway, and I wouldn't mind keeping them on hand while the acr gets stored so I can still work on them (and keep them out of the elements). Seems like just disconnecting the dirveshaft and motor mounts/hoses/wires would be easier, if its doable. And its an excuse to pick up an engine crane:)
Yes it can be done. i do it that way. you are also gong to have the front axle to deal with. either pull it off or hang it to the fenders. halfshafts also have to be dealt with
I thought you had the motor and trans out of the car already.
nope, been doing things the hard way. im a gluton for punishment... or at least i feel that way days like today. i think i managed to set some kind of record for over-complicating a rear brake pad change on my wife's 335i. Turned a 40 min job into a 6 hour job that resulted in rebuilding the entire rear suspension all because of a smallish dent in a trailing arm and since i couldn't find a socket extension. gotta love days like this :)
if i can pick up or borrow a crain this weekend, i'll try to yank everything. need someone to help haul it though... my truck was stolen a couple months back and hasn't been fixed yet after being recovered..
You have to remove the tcase to pull motor/trans. Try to get the motor spinning any way you can. PB'Laster in the cyls will help unstick it. If you can remove the converter bolts, then pulling the motor alone is easier and the ATF may not dump all over. I run a wire through the starter opening behind the flex-plate to the inspection cover and anchor it through one of the holes (to keep the converter from falling out) Then run a chain across under the bell of the trans from the frame (I think I used the strut rods but it's been awhile) to keep the trans up level.
Pull the bell bolts (don't forget there is one smack in the middle) I used a roto-wrench that has the offset to get to the bell bolts easier and it ratchets. Other than that, I've had to tip down the trans (after undoing the exhaust pipe) and use a LOOONG extension with a 9/16" impact socket from beside the trans.