I think I might have put this in the wrong place so I am recopying here. recently the front transfer case went out on my 1984 AMC Eagle Sedan. I was driving down the highway and heard this sudden grinding. Would not accelerate faster then what I was going and when I turned into a gas station and had to go up hill I slowed to barely moving. Took into summit transmission thinking that was the problem as when I put it into park it made a horrible sound and I could still push it and it would roll.
They said the transfer case was empty of fluid and most likely shot. Now they are trying to find the parts to rebuild it. Are there any places that still sell parts for the NP 129 or would it be easier to put in another like the NP 119? What advice could you offer. Thanks for your time.
I wouldn't bother with the stock Eagle equipment if you can help it. I have a replacement NP129 on standby in my junk bin but it's probably not going anywhere anyway. Look in the picking yards for another AMC Eagle if you can. Otherwise it's back to the picking lists:
Jeep Wagonner
Jeep Cherokee
Jeep Pioneer
Jeep CJ-5
Jeep CJ-7
The NP229 is the only upgrade I have in mind for the Eagle. There is no other acceptable substitute. If you find a NP242 or something that everyone else here praises so well you could just get by with that. It will keep you moving on the roads. I can't guarantee much else.
Quote from: DaemonForce on June 04, 2012, 08:50:57 PM
I wouldn't bother with the stock Eagle equipment if you can help it. I have a replacement NP129 on standby in my junk bin but it's probably not going anywhere anyway. Look in the picking yards for another AMC Eagle if you can. Otherwise it's back to the picking lists:
Jeep Wagonner
Jeep Cherokee
Jeep Pioneer
Jeep CJ-5
Jeep CJ-7
The NP229 is the only upgrade I have in mind for the Eagle. There is no other acceptable substitute. If you find a NP242 or something that everyone else here praises so well you could just get by with that. It will keep you moving on the roads. I can't guarantee much else.
If I did want to stick with it are there any places that sell replacements. How hard is it to modify, install a NP 229, would I have to change the back?
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 08:59:34 PM
If I did want to stick with it are there any places that sell replacements. How hard is it to modify, install a NP 229, would I have to change the back?
That's exactly the problem here. The stock replacement is too rare to consider. In many cases for every other part of this vehicle the upgrades have become the new stock replacement. Without them, you'll struggle to retain functionality.
Anyway, why do you think I'm holding onto the NP129? I have found ONE NP229 from a Jeep Cherokee that I wasn't able to pull since the crossmember was frozen but the ends look different and I'm sure it will need reclocking. Found it last season in the picking yards, it's gone now along with any chance of finding another one. I'll just have to wait. Oh but what's this? I found an AMC Eagle with one of the full time non-selectable transfercases at St. Johns last night. There's other Eagles with similar cases in Stockton, Rancho Cordova and I believe there were two in Chico. I'd have to look them up again.
would replacing it with the full time transfer case work better in the long run?
It's probably easiest to swap in a different 119 or 129, but if the viscus coupling in your old one is still good (and it may be from your story) I'd pull it and keep it. There are probably several people here who have a whole transfer case you could use.
Alternatively just about any modern Jeep case can be adapted. Look for a fixed rear yoke on the case or grab the drive shaft as well when you pull it so you can have it adjusted for length. There's a few writeups here, but there is a little bit of work is needed to make everything fit.
Make sure you check the fluid in it every year! My original case has nearly 200,000 on it with all original parts, it outlasted two transmissions, an engine, and a rear axle shaft; so they can be pretty reliable.
Quote from: BenM on June 04, 2012, 09:16:03 PM
It's probably easiest to swap in a different 119 or 129, but if the viscus coupling in your old one is still good (and it may be from your story) I'd pull it and keep it. There are probably several people here who have a whole transfer case you could use.
Alternatively just about any modern Jeep case can be adapted. Look for a fixed rear yoke on the case or grab the drive shaft as well when you pull it so you can have it adjusted for length. There's a few writeups here, but there is a little bit of work is needed to make everything fit.
Make sure you check the fluid in it every year! My original case has nearly 200,000 on it with all original parts, it outlasted two transmissions, an engine, and a rear axle shaft; so they can be pretty reliable.
Okay, stupid question but what list and what fluid?
What do you guys think of this site. They mentioned they sell trans rebuilds.
http://www.midwesttrans.com/prodlk.html
Sorry, edited that, here on the 'Nest. Use generic Dextron compatable ATF, up to the bottom of the filler bolt.
Quote from: BenM on June 04, 2012, 09:24:37 PM
Sorry, edited that, here on the 'Nest. Use generic Dextron compatable ATF, up to the bottom of the filler bolt.
how about dextron II, Know the places around here sell oil that is made for all makes of Dextron II and III
Where would I even fill it?
Quote from: DaemonForce on June 04, 2012, 09:05:58 PM
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 08:59:34 PM
If I did want to stick with it are there any places that sell replacements. How hard is it to modify, install a NP 229, would I have to change the back?
That's exactly the problem here. The stock replacement is too rare to consider. In many cases for every other part of this vehicle the upgrades have become the new stock replacement. Without them, you'll struggle to retain functionality.
Anyway, why do you think I'm holding onto the NP129? I have found ONE NP229 from a Jeep Cherokee that I wasn't able to pull since the crossmember was frozen but the ends look different and I'm sure it will need reclocking. Found it last season in the picking yards, it's gone now along with any chance of finding another one. I'll just have to wait. Oh but what's this? I found an AMC Eagle with one of the full time non-selectable transfercases at St. Johns last night. There's other Eagles with similar cases in Stockton, Rancho Cordova and I believe there were two in Chico. I'd have to look them up again.
Would be appreciated.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 09:30:33 PM
Would be appreciated.
Either way you're screwed. All the stuff I know is along the I-5. You'd have to find some related system on your own. Basically there's a bluebird Eagle sitting in St. Johns with either the 119 or 128. In Rancho Cordova there's a white bird with the NP129. A yellow one in Rocklin but I can't remember what it had. There's now only ONE in Chico but I didn't get to see it myself. These things magically pop in and out every few weeks. I try to jump on the opportunity as fast as I can. I'm trying my best to disregard the Hornets and Concords. It just hurts too much when I see them.
Quote from: DaemonForce on June 04, 2012, 09:59:45 PM
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 09:30:33 PM
Would be appreciated.
Either way you're screwed. All the stuff I know is along the I-5. You'd have to find some related system on your own. Basically there's a bluebird Eagle sitting in St. Johns with either the 119 or 128. In Rancho Cordova there's a white bird with the NP129. A yellow one in Rocklin but I can't remember what it had. There's now only ONE in Chico but I didn't get to see it myself. These things magically pop in and out every few weeks. I try to jump on the opportunity as fast as I can. I'm trying my best to disregard the Hornets and Concords. It just hurts too much when I see them.
In what state do you live if you do not mind me asking? Also found a place that sells rebuild kits, what do you guys think? http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/transfer_case_replacements_and_parts/np219.html
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 10:04:05 PM
In what state do you live
I live all over the I-5. I pass out in Washington State.
I will not bother with the rebuild kits. They're a waste of time when I can get the upgraded unit for less than a quarter the price of a soft rebuild.
Quote from: DaemonForce on June 05, 2012, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 10:04:05 PM
In what state do you live
I live all over the I-5. I pass out in Washington State.
I will not bother with the rebuild kits. They're a waste of time when I can get the upgraded unit for less than a quarter the price of a soft rebuild.
Okay, but do the rebuild kits actually work. Also my parents are thinking of having your local mechanic do it for cheaper and are going to get a dolly to bring the car back the 1.5 hours journey to him. As summit transmission wanted at least 1400 to rebuild the transfer case.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 05, 2012, 02:13:55 PM
Okay, but do the rebuild kits actually work. Also my parents are thinking of having your local mechanic do it for cheaper and are going to get a dolly to bring the car back the 1.5 hours journey to him. As summit transmission wanted at least 1400 to rebuild the transfer case.
They want $1400 because that viscous clutch is going to be replaced. You are better off with another used transfercase. Also, I'm against bringing these cars to transmission places. I waited 3 months on a shop to do a rebuild that would have taken me 2 days. I would have done it myself except for the fact that my family is insane and turns ownership of this car into a daily battle whenever something starts to go wrong. I don't have a shop anymore either.
If you wanted to do this yourself you would probably be facing the same scenario. Just remember that $120 for junk that lasts another few years is a better alternative than letting some experienced idiot hijack your entire life during work season just because they can't figure out what's wrong. As the owner and driver, you are more in tune with the flaws of this vehicle than anyone and in consequence, the only likely candidate to genuinely fix anything. Remember that.
Quote from: DaemonForce on June 05, 2012, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 05, 2012, 02:13:55 PM
Okay, but do the rebuild kits actually work. Also my parents are thinking of having your local mechanic do it for cheaper and are going to get a dolly to bring the car back the 1.5 hours journey to him. As summit transmission wanted at least 1400 to rebuild the transfer case.
They want $1400 because that viscous clutch is going to be replaced. You are better off with another used transfercase. Also, I'm against bringing these cars to transmission places. I waited 3 months on a shop to do a rebuild that would have taken me 2 days. I would have done it myself except for the fact that my family is insane and turns ownership of this car into a daily battle whenever something starts to go wrong. I don't have a shop anymore either.
If you wanted to do this yourself you would probably be facing the same scenario. Just remember that $120 for junk that lasts another few years is a better alternative than letting some experienced idiot hijack your entire life during work season just because they can't figure out what's wrong. As the owner and driver, you are more in tune with the flaws of this vehicle than anyone and in consequence, the only likely candidate to genuinely fix anything. Remember that.
Good point. carnuck mentioned he has a PN 129 good used for sale for $100. Just need to get a hold of him to ask some questions. When is he usually on? Have you done business with him? Can't remember if I put in a NP 119 that would make it constant 4 wheel correct? are there any modifications I would need to make.
Also if mine has vac pumps to the front axle to engage 4-wheel drive then is it shift on the fly?
Shift on the fly is non-vacuum.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 09:27:29 PM
Quote from: BenM on June 04, 2012, 09:24:37 PM
Sorry, edited that, here on the 'Nest. Use generic Dextron compatable ATF, up to the bottom of the filler bolt.
how about dextron II, Know the places around here sell oil that is made for all makes of Dextron II and III
Where would I even fill it?
Anything Dextron II or III compatible.
(http://jeep.zerok.ru/images/TJ2004i/2004_TJ_Wrangler238_258_html_m377293.jpg)
I agree about finding a used one from someone. Put a wanted ad up, someone should be able to send you one. They're going to want to replace the coupling on a rebuild, and that's the most expensive part, it could or could not be bad, and a place shouldn't be guessing on that until it's torn down.
A 119 is a full time case, and stop to shift (Vacuum front axle) was 1981 1/2 to 1983.
Was not really able to check for false neutral as summit transmission has taken he transfer case completely apart. Though when I looked through the parts I did find a round silver piece with 4 screw holes that got slightly smaller by steps as it got near the center that was broken in 3 pieces. Two small ones and the big one. Looks like it cracked then broke. defiantly will need a new one.
Also mine was made august 1983 and has the front end where there are vac um lines going to part of the front end that is one the passengers side, next to the c-joint for the passenger side front tire. Is it shift on the fly?
I will have to double check but I am pretty sure it also had a round pump like thing next to it, like in this picture. It did have the square part with the cover on it though and vacuum lines.
http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0846.jpg
August '83 SHOULD have been a 1984 car, but AMC may have been using up some old stock or someone ordered it that way. But you have a stop-and-shift if that's on the front axle.
I would pull the cover on the front axle shift cover while the car is apart and check for the front axle to see if it's locked. If not, you can do it now, or you can leave it stop-and-shift. It's your choice. The stop and shift may get slightly better fuel economy, but the shift-on-the-fly is more reliable and more convenient.
If you're not sure and you want to wait before you do a permanent change, then you can use some vacuum hose to provide a constant engaged front axle until you decide. You can always reconnect the stock vacuum lines if you change your mind.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 09:23:36 PM
What do you guys think of this site. They mentioned they sell trans rebuilds.
http://www.midwesttrans.com/prodlk.html
I contacted midwesttrans.com and they responded within 20 minutes. They told me they can sell me a rebuilt NP119 viscous coupler for $345. Very polite and helpful people. I had previously contacted drivetrain.com but they couldn't be bothered to respond to my inquiries.
Quote from: BenM on June 08, 2012, 01:39:38 PM
August '83 SHOULD have been a 1984 car, but AMC may have been using up some old stock or someone ordered it that way. But you have a stop-and-shift if that's on the front axle.
I would pull the cover on the front axle shift cover while the car is apart and check for the front axle to see if it's locked. If not, you can do it now, or you can leave it stop-and-shift. It's your choice. The stop and shift may get slightly better fuel economy, but the shift-on-the-fly is more reliable and more convenient.
If you're not sure and you want to wait before you do a permanent change, then you can use some vacuum hose to provide a constant engaged front axle until you decide. You can always reconnect the stock vacuum lines if you change your mind.
September is the start of the next model year, not August (at least not back then)
Quote from: carnuck on June 10, 2012, 01:18:58 PM
Quote from: BenM on June 08, 2012, 01:39:38 PM
August '83 SHOULD have been a 1984 car, but AMC may have been using up some old stock or someone ordered it that way. But you have a stop-and-shift if that's on the front axle.
I would pull the cover on the front axle shift cover while the car is apart and check for the front axle to see if it's locked. If not, you can do it now, or you can leave it stop-and-shift. It's your choice. The stop and shift may get slightly better fuel economy, but the shift-on-the-fly is more reliable and more convenient.
If you're not sure and you want to wait before you do a permanent change, then you can use some vacuum hose to provide a constant engaged front axle until you decide. You can always reconnect the stock vacuum lines if you change your mind.
September is the start of the next model year, not August (at least not back then)
It seems that they happen earlier now, (or I'm just older?). I wouldn't have figured they'd still be making the current year's cars that late in the model year anyway but that instead they would be building up inventory for the new year. I guess you never can tell.
Finally sort of back on my feet. If you still need the NP129 I have, I need a zip to ship. Guesstimate is $100 for cross country shipping otherwise.
Quote from: carnuck on June 11, 2012, 04:27:35 PM
Finally sort of back on my feet. If you still need the NP129 I have, I need a zip to ship. Guesstimate is $100 for cross country shipping otherwise.
zip code is 46563. Though it looks like my parents have just decided to get another car but they are letting me keep the eagle. Just need to get the money saved to do the repair work.
I would get it out of that shop. It sounds like they may plan to bill you $500 just for taking apart your old transfercase.
Quote from: carnuck on June 13, 2012, 03:33:35 AM
I would get it out of that shop. It sounds like they may plan to bill you $500 just for taking apart your old transfercase.
I already did charged me about 300 for work and tow. Still interested in your transfer case of course. Might be getting a Eagle Vision as my daily driver.
Oooooo! Talk about money pits! (Visions are notorious for auto trans dropping out every 50,000 miles unless you are gentle with them) I hope they gave you back all the bolts and parts? Get it ASAP if not!
Quote from: carnuck on June 14, 2012, 01:13:54 PM
Oooooo! Talk about money pits! (Visions are notorious for auto trans dropping out every 50,000 miles unless you are gentle with them) I hope they gave you back all the bolts and parts? Get it ASAP if not!
I believe they did. couple of boxes with bolts. Parents have decided to see if our mechanic can fix it. He is thinking of attaching a steel throttle cable and getting ride of the vacuum system all together. Still interested in buying your transfer case then. How much was shipping. Will need to see if he knows how to lock front axle.
heres how to lock the front axle http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=38856.0
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 14, 2012, 04:00:25 PM
Quote from: carnuck on June 14, 2012, 01:13:54 PM
Oooooo! Talk about money pits! (Visions are notorious for auto trans dropping out every 50,000 miles unless you are gentle with them) I hope they gave you back all the bolts and parts? Get it ASAP if not!
I believe they did. couple of boxes with bolts. Parents have decided to see if our mechanic can fix it. He is thinking of attaching a steel throttle cable and getting ride of the vacuum system all together. Still interested in buying your transfer case then. How much was shipping. Will need to see if he knows how to lock front axle.
The axle is simple to lock. Then all the transfercase/axle hoses can go away except two from the switch to the tcase and center one to the vacuum ball, which is attached to the intake. One fitting on the tcase shift motor gets plugged (closest to the linkage) and the lines will go to the other two ports. With the front axle locked, and the shift motor working correctly, you will have true shift on the fly!
I'll be doing this soon and taking pics as I go.
Tcase is still saved for you. I didn't get downtown (20 miles away) to double check shipping price, but about $100 should be right due to weight/size. It was working when I pulled it (the transmission's converter neck snapped, which is common and not related to the tcase) Slack in the chain appears to be minimum and when I find my bayonet torque wrench I can test the viscous coupler is functioning correctly. There was no black crud in the nice red ATF I drained from the tcase. Sealer around the center tells me it had work done at some point. Only thing missing is the speedo plug which I needed for the replacement tcase. The Grand Wagoneer one I put in had a screw thread on type which won't work with the Eagle's speedo cable.
Quote from: carnuck on June 15, 2012, 03:29:47 AM
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 14, 2012, 04:00:25 PM
Quote from: carnuck on June 14, 2012, 01:13:54 PM
Oooooo! Talk about money pits! (Visions are notorious for auto trans dropping out every 50,000 miles unless you are gentle with them) I hope they gave you back all the bolts and parts? Get it ASAP if not!
I believe they did. couple of boxes with bolts. Parents have decided to see if our mechanic can fix it. He is thinking of attaching a steel throttle cable and getting ride of the vacuum system all together. Still interested in buying your transfer case then. How much was shipping. Will need to see if he knows how to lock front axle.
The axle is simple to lock. Then all the transfercase/axle hoses can go away except two from the switch to the tcase and center one to the vacuum ball, which is attached to the intake. One fitting on the tcase shift motor gets plugged (closest to the linkage) and the lines will go to the other two ports. With the front axle locked, and the shift motor working correctly, you will have true shift on the fly!
I'll be doing this soon and taking pics as I go.
Tcase is still saved for you. I didn't get downtown (20 miles away) to double check shipping price, but about $100 should be right due to weight/size. It was working when I pulled it (the transmission's converter neck snapped, which is common and not related to the tcase) Slack in the chain appears to be minimum and when I find my bayonet torque wrench I can test the viscous coupler is functioning correctly. There was no black crud in the nice red ATF I drained from the tcase. Sealer around the center tells me it had work done at some point. Only thing missing is the speedo plug which I needed for the replacement tcase. The Grand Wagoneer one I put in had a screw thread on type which won't work with the Eagle's speedo cable.
Thanks for the update. Did you get the message I sent. Also would you except pay-pal?
Also how well does the front axle lock method listed on the wiki work? Also are there any diagrams that show how to hookup the vacuum system without the front axle. Tried looking at this on the wiki but got confused. Is there a step by step that shows which vacuum hose goes to pump, which is 2W and which hose on selector is 4W.
http://www.amceaglenest.com/~iowaeagl/guide/index.php?title=Select_Shift
http://www.amceaglenest.com/~iowaeagl/guide/index.php?title=Front_Axle_Lock
Would something like this help? What is it saying exactly?
http://www.amceaglenest.com/~iowaeagl/guide/index.php?title=Shift_on_the_Fly_Vacuum_Set_Up
Still hoping I did not do any damage to the front axle when that happened. Made a clunk going into park but probably trans case. How well does the cable operated transfer case shifter work? is it shift on the fly.
It usually won't hurt the axle unless you do it too often.
Quote from: max98059 on June 15, 2012, 12:25:02 AM
heres how to lock the front axle http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=38856.0
Thanks, just wondering after you have taken the cover off how do you add more fluid to it? Do you have to take that part/shaft of the front axle completely off? Also midwest transmission mentioned that the NP 119 does not have a coupler, is that correct?
The 119, 129, 229 all have the same coupler. It isn't worth repairing. The critical silicone fluid it needs to operate with is toxic and out of production. That is why its so hard to find a company willing and even able to offer a rebuilt coupler. I am also suspicious that this company is "rebuilding" it but not refilling it. That would be a glorious waste of money.
That fluid is contained in the coupler with one big O-ring. When the O-ring fails or seeps slightly the fluid drains into the case. It settles at the bottom and has been reputated to destroy bearings by displacing the ATF where it shouldn't be.
Even if you do repair it, how long do you think it will last? I plan on restoring my Eagles and driving them for another 30 years. The other options are more readily available and more likely to last my intended service life of the vehicle.
The 249 Couplers are still available as New-Old-Stock. The 247 replaced the 249 and it does the exact same traction improvements that the 249 did, except it does it better and with a limited slip differential that doesn't require toxic fluid. The 249 coupler lasts much longer because it is a robust, very well sealed unit. They accomplished this by eliminating the integrated open differential found in the 119/129/229 cases. That means it will last much longer but the vehicle will need to be towed once it fails.
Quote from: captspillane on June 20, 2012, 06:51:18 PM
The 119, 129, 229 all have the same coupler. It isn't worth repairing. The critical silicone fluid it needs to operate with is toxic and out of production. That is why its so hard to find a company willing and even able to offer a rebuilt coupler. I am also suspicious that this company is "rebuilding" it but not refilling it. That would be a glorious waste of money.
I got my rebuilt NP119 viscous coupler from Midwesttrans.com yesterday. The technical service manual says it can be bench tested but it needs the rear output shaft and yoke, assembled clutch gear and side gear (which I'm not sure is part of the VC or has to come from the disassembled transfer case) in order to test it. I'd give it a go and see what I find but my transfer case is still in the car and we don't intend to remove it and install the VC for at least a few months and possibly into winter.
Quote from: captspillane on June 20, 2012, 06:51:18 PM
Even if you do repair it, how long do you think it will last?
I think it will last as long as the original equipment VC lasted. Given that I probably will only drive mine 1000-1500 miles a year I think it quite unlikely that my VC won't last the lifetime of my Eagle.
I agree its worth doing for a thoroughly restored Eagle like your pristine SX4, Priya. Your Eagle is exceptional and is treated as such. My comments are intended for those who do not know what a VC is and may become fearful of its failure. It is an accessory. It is just as critical to the operation of the vehicle as the spoiler is.
Can you tell that the unit you received is sealed and filled with the proper amount of silicone fluid? Does anything in their documentation confirm the details of the fluid and how it was filled? It needs to have a certain percentage of fluid to empty space in order to allow thermal expansion. Too much fluid and it will lock up prematurely. Not enough and it won't lock up at all. Do they expect you to adjust the fluid level during bench testing?
It seems entirely possible to me that a company would be willing to clean up and rebuild a VC and send it back to you with no fluid in it and no means to purchase the fluid. Rebuilt does not mean refilled, ready to install. It obviously would not be worth the rebuild cost if it still doesn't function afterwards.
In my case I also intend to make one garage kept, low mileage, beautiful and stock SX4 with a NP229 because that is the original intent of the designers. A pampered low mileage Eagle VC should last another 30 years and is certainly worth $350 to me for that specific Eagle. All of my daily driven Eagles will have the NP242 because I typically drive at least 50K miles a year. I would not trust the VC to last 250K miles and am not willing to rebuild it every five years for those utility vehicles.
Quote from: priya on June 21, 2012, 12:55:15 PM
Quote from: captspillane on June 20, 2012, 06:51:18 PM
The 119, 129, 229 all have the same coupler. It isn't worth repairing. The critical silicone fluid it needs to operate with is toxic and out of production. That is why its so hard to find a company willing and even able to offer a rebuilt coupler. I am also suspicious that this company is "rebuilding" it but not refilling it. That would be a glorious waste of money.
I got my rebuilt NP119 viscous coupler from Midwesttrans.com yesterday. The technical service manual says it can be bench tested but it needs the rear output shaft and yoke, assembled clutch gear and side gear (which I'm not sure is part of the VC or has to come from the disassembled transfer case) in order to test it. I'd give it a go and see what I find but my transfer case is still in the car and we don't intend to remove it and install the VC for at least a few months and possibly into winter.
Quote from: captspillane on June 20, 2012, 06:51:18 PM
Even if you do repair it, how long do you think it will last?
I think it will last as long as the original equipment VC lasted. Given that I probably will only drive mine 1000-1500 miles a year I think it quite unlikely that my VC won't last the lifetime of my Eagle.
Thanks, though I find that odd as The tech I talked too swore up and down that the NP 119 does not have a coupler. for someone that is trying to get ride of any possible part not working is it worth getting the NP 119 over the 129, how well does the cable to transfer case idea work?
Quote from: captspillane on June 21, 2012, 08:53:54 PM
Can you tell that the unit you received is sealed and filled with the proper amount of silicone fluid? Does anything in their documentation confirm the details of the fluid and how it was filled? It needs to have a certain percentage of fluid to empty space in order to allow thermal expansion. Too much fluid and it will lock up prematurely. Not enough and it won't lock up at all. Do they expect you to adjust the fluid level during bench testing?
I can't tell anything by looking at the unit, the unit appears sealed, it and its visible components all appear as new. There was no documentation with the package. The Eagle technical service manual didn't say anything about adjusting the fluid level during bench testing.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 21, 2012, 09:27:35 PM
Thanks, though I find that odd as The tech I talked too swore up and down that the NP 119 does not have a coupler. for someone that is trying to get ride of any possible part not working is it worth getting the NP 119 over the 129, how well does the cable to transfer case idea work?
Yes, it does seem very odd that the tech would insist it doesn't have a viscous coupler. I don't know what the difference is between the NP119 and the NP129, perhaps captspillane will be on later to give you advice.
Here is a link posted on a similar discussion from a few months back. It discusses the VW version. The same concepts apply. Its possible that the VW fluid is still available someplace and that it could be used inside the Eagle VC if we could figure out the ideal percentage to fill it to.
Quote from: Jurjen on October 28, 2011, 01:43:37 PM
Here i found some interesting torque curves for the VC.
Note that this curve is for the VW synchro again, but this website has lots of interesting information.
http://www.syncronauts.org.uk/syncro-technical/syncro-transmission/viscous-couplings/refurb-vcs-torque-curves
Use the tab "synchro technical" to find out more.
Quote from: priya on June 21, 2012, 10:02:30 PM
Yes, it does seem very odd that the tech would insist it doesn't have a viscous coupler. I don't know what the difference is between the NP119 and the NP129, perhaps captspillane will be on later to give you advice.
The tech obviously doesn't have a clue. The "9" means viscous coupler. That is why a 119, 129, 229, and 249 all must have viscous couplers. Of those its only the 249 that isn't an identical interchangeable unit. The 249 viscous coupler is very different than the earlier transfer cases.
The first digit is the number of speeds, in other words a "1" doesn't have low range and a "2" does. That has always been true.
The second digit changed in meaning, but in the newer generation of transfer cases it is an approximate strength rating. In other words a 241 is stronger than a 231 but not nearly as strong as a 271. The only expection to that is our transfer cases. In the early 119, 129, 128, 229, 228, 219 cases the second digit tells whether the transfer case has a 2WD function. In other words a 129 can be made into a 119 by eliminating the 2WD function and it can be made into a 229 by adding the low range components.
A "8" for the last digit means it has an open differential only. The 128 and 228 transfer cases were totally identical to the 119 and 129 except the Viscous Coupler was eliminated. All your 1986 Eagles and Jeep trucks had those. Your 129 transfer case will behave exactly like a 128 if your viscous coupler doesn't have any fluid in it, which isn't a bad thing. You won't notice the difference unless under extreme circumstances.
Other popular third digits are "1" to mean fully locked outputs in 4WD. They are often called "part time" cases because they can't be left in 4WD on dry roads without damaging the transfer case. This includes the XJ 231, Rubicon 241, and the beefy 271 found behind the Ford 7.3 diesels. "2" as a third digit, like the Jeep 242, means that it is a torque biased open diffential transfer case. It is called a "full time" case because it can be left in 4WD on dry pavement. It also has a fully locked "part time" mode. "7" as a third digit, like the Grand Cherokee 247, is a limited slip differential. This is the modern version of a viscous coupler. It lasts longer, responds faster, and doesn't use the toxic silicone fluid. The 247 replaced the 249 because viscous couplers are considered obsolete.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 21, 2012, 09:27:35 PM
For someone that is trying to get ride of any possible part not working is it worth getting the NP 119 over the 129, how well does the cable to transfer case idea work?
The idea of putting a cable actuator on the transfer case is a poor one. The shifter needs about a pound of pressure applied forward to keep in 4WD and rearward to keep in 2WD. It does not click into position and stay there on its own like a NP242 in a Cherokee would. The only only cable shifters I know of are meant to be used with a NP231 or NP242, they don't work for the 129. The vacuum diaphragm was designed to pull constant tension in order to keep the shifter from popping into "false neutral."
When the transfer case gets stuck between gears the car will lurch forward, but not actually drive. It will make severe whining noises. This is what I mean by false neutral. The shifter is stuck between 4WD and 2WD and must be put back into gear and held there. It is not "Neutral" like a Cherokee transfer case would have. It will damage the transfer case if you leave it there.
If you own an Eagle with a 129, make sure you keep a 9/16th wrench in the glove box. I've had to crawl under an Eagle to pop it back into gear about a dozen times. The car has to be towed if you don't have that wrench with you.
I posted a picture on here or on the other thread showing a piece of rope tied to the shifter. I use a three to one mechanical advantage "Z rig" pattern to pull about a pound of pressure onto the shifter to keep it fully engaged. I leave it tied like that permaneantly. That essentially makes the 129 behave exactly like a 119. I prefer the 129 over the 119 slightly because I've had to crawl under, untie the rope, and tie it rearward during mechanical failure in the past. That lets you tow it or remove the front axle.
With some looking I finally found the thread that discussed this last November. In that thread I posted alot of pictures from when I tore down several transfer cases for comparison purposes. The pictures are now a few pages back because of new discussion items.
http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36862.15
Quote from: captspillane on June 21, 2012, 10:18:42 PM
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 21, 2012, 09:27:35 PM
For someone that is trying to get ride of any possible part not working is it worth getting the NP 119 over the 129, how well does the cable to transfer case idea work?
The idea of putting a cable actuator on the transfer case is a poor one. The shifter needs about a pound of pressure applied forward to keep in 4WD and rearward to keep in 2WD. It does not click into position and stay there on its own like a NP242 in a Cherokee would. The only only cable shifters I know of are meant to be used with a NP231 or NP242, they don't work for the 129. The vacuum diaphragm was designed to pull constant tension in order to keep the shifter from popping into "false neutral."
When the transfer case gets stuck between gears the car will lurch forward, but not actually drive. It will make severe whining noises. This is what I mean by false neutral. The shifter is stuck between 4WD and 2WD and must be put back into gear and held there. It is not "Neutral" like a Cherokee transfer case would have. It will damage the transfer case if you leave it there.
If you own an Eagle with a 129, make sure you keep a 9/16th wrench in the glove box. I've had to crawl under an Eagle to pop it back into gear about a dozen times. The car has to be towed if you don't have that wrench with you.
I posted a picture on here or on the other thread showing a piece of rope tied to the shifter. I use a three to one mechanical advantage "Z rig" pattern to pull about a pound of pressure onto the shifter to keep it fully engaged. I leave it tied like that permaneantly. That essentially makes the 129 behave exactly like a 119. I prefer the 129 over the 119 slightly because I've had to crawl under, untie the rope, and tie it rearward during mechanical failure in the past. That lets you tow it or remove the front axle.
Okay then, does someone have a diagram or step by step directions of how to hook up the vacuum for just the transfer case for someone that has never done any type of that work before in there lives and has no idea of where any of the parts are on it? Not trying to sound rude or anything it is just that I have zero car experience when it comes to working or modifying cars.
my parents just picked up a parts car 1983 Eagle Sedan for 300 dollars. Owner said it ran fine until he lost the keys and the engine started acting up. Is that a good price for one. They are thinking of using the transfer case off of it.
Quote from: captspillane on June 20, 2012, 06:51:18 PM
The 119, 129, 229 all have the same coupler. It isn't worth repairing. The critical silicone fluid it needs to operate with is toxic and out of production. That is why its so hard to find a company willing and even able to offer a rebuilt coupler. I am also suspicious that this company is "rebuilding" it but not refilling it. That would be a glorious waste of money.
Quote from: captspillane on June 21, 2012, 08:53:54 PM
[Priya] Can you tell that the unit you received is sealed and filled with the proper amount of silicone fluid? Does anything in their documentation confirm the details of the fluid and how it was filled? It needs to have a certain percentage of fluid to empty space in order to allow thermal expansion. Too much fluid and it will lock up prematurely. Not enough and it won't lock up at all. Do they expect you to adjust the fluid level during bench testing?
It seems entirely possible to me that a company would be willing to clean up and rebuild a VC and send it back to you with no fluid in it and no means to purchase the fluid. Rebuilt does not mean refilled, ready to install. It obviously would not be worth the rebuild cost if it still doesn't function afterwards.
We removed my transfer case today and Ward dismantled it. Ward bench tested the old VC and there was very little resistance to turning. We put the new viscous coupler in the vice and put a torque wrench on it and it took 25 ft lbs to turn just as specified in the Eagle technical service manual for a good viscous coupling. So, if you want a rebuilt viscous coupling for your NP119 you can buy it from Midwesttrans.com and they do put in a suitable replacement viscous coupling fluid that works as it should.
Quote from: priya on December 28, 2012, 06:33:24 PM
So, if you want a rebuilt viscous coupling for your NP119 you can buy it from Midwesttrans.com and they do put in a suitable replacement viscous coupling fluid that works as it should.
That's great to hear. Thank you very much, Priya, for following up with that and checking the quality of the work. That's invaluable! Eggs!
Thanks Captspillane.
I'm surprised no-one has jumped on my NP129 for $100 in good shape yet.
Quote from: carnuck on January 13, 2013, 05:49:22 PM
I'm surprised no-one has jumped on my NP129 for $100 in good shape yet.
Someone will want it at some point, just repost your ad every so often.
I'm coming up for a major culling before I move this spring
Just wondering, why no mention of the np231 here?
I've heard that it's a very common case in junkyard jeeps, and is often in easily salvageable condition, because of the lack of viscous coupling...
Not willing to give up the viscous coupling and full time high in exchange for four wheel low?
I'm usually in 2wd anyways, I figured if I ever have transfer case issues I'd swap to either a 231 or a 242.
NP231, like the NP242 has a couple issues. #1, it comes in 21 or 23 spline input, #2 it has a deeper input than the Eagle or FSJ tcases (15/16") so if you just toss it on the Eagle trans, you'll have only about 1/2 the spline making contact. #3 is the slip yoke output (fixable with a slip yoke eliminator). You still need new driveshafts to get the right length AFAIK.
Jeep NP208 is another option, similar to NP231, but you only need a longer rear driveshaft (it's about 5" shorter overall than an Eagle's tcase but the front yoke is the same position)
Quote from: greymarooneightytwo on January 14, 2013, 03:24:06 PM
Just wondering, why no mention of the np231 here?
I've heard that it's a very common case in junkyard jeeps, and is often in easily salvageable condition, because of the lack of viscous coupling...
Not willing to give up the viscous coupling and full time high in exchange for four wheel low?
That's how I feel.
If you get an NP229 (or NP228) then you get a bolt in replacement with (or without) viscous coupler that has low range. That's why I have a 727 and NP229 in my wagon because I had planned on towing with it.