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Author Topic: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.  (Read 21973 times)

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Offline eaglefreek

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Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« on: October 26, 2011, 05:13:33 PM »
Due to another thread regarding viscous coupling availability,  I made a couple phone calls. Both were to companies who supply rebuilt transfer cases to Autozone. This was to see how they handle the viscous coupling issue. If others want to grab the torch and call other rebuilders and pick their brain and add that info here, it would be great.

First call went to Midwest Transmissions. After a getting transferred a few times and making a couple more calls to them, I finally received an answer. They say they have a supplier who rebuilds the VC's for them.

Second call went to Rockland Standard Gear. I called and had to leave a voice mail. I got a call back the next day. The gentleman was quite knowledgeable about the AMC Eagle. He said he had owned several over the years and his dream car was an AWD Pacer using Eagle drivetrain components. I felt bad misleading him into thinking I was looking to purchase a rebuilt transfer case. If he reads this I hope he understands. He first tried talking me into swapping to a different case. He said all his Eagles got a NP231 and he modified the linkage of the NP229 range lever to work with the 231. I told him I wanted to know what they do about the VC. He stated they haven't been available for 20 years and before going to work for RSG he had a tranfer case company where he was the only one in the country who rebuilt VC's. He developed an apparatus to test them. He says they have to be heated up by turning them and that you can think you have a bad VC but once the fluid is warmed up the VC will work properly. He had to abandon the VC rebuilding business because the the fluid was considered toxic and was getting alot of heat from the EPA. He stated that Rockland Standard Gear tests used couplers and reuses ones that pass their test and they do not rebuild the coupler or use rebuilt ones.

Please only add technical info to this thread.
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon 4.2L/4.0L head, AW4,NP242, Chrysler 8.25" rear.
1981 AMC Eagle Wagon As Seen On TV  Lost In Transmission


 

"I know he'd be a poorer man, if he never saw an eagle fly,
Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
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A-A EAGLE

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2011, 03:46:25 PM »
Thanks for the info, egg for you.

Although not very technical, I rebuilt my VC by bolting the friction plates that are inside the VC together. Not an option for full time 4x4 and those who don't want to loose the pro's of the working of the VC. But for those who use 4x4 only for off road and snow and ice conditions, its a solution which will cost 3.00 USD.... Beware, in this case you can't use 4x4 on normal road conditions as the transmission will wind up and will cause damage.

Anjo

Offline Jurjen

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2011, 05:22:34 PM »
Here are four videos of a VC rebuild (for a VW T3-synchro).
It is in German, but still self explanatory.
It also lists the sort of silicone oil used.

http://www.2wd-goes-syncro.de/
"sparrows fly in flocks, eagles fly alone"

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rohnk

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2011, 08:09:43 PM »
Very cool Jurjen! Do they say why the reason for the rebuild?

Offline captspillane

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 03:59:45 AM »
I would be excited if their testing procedure could give a tangible rating on a used coupler, like several torque factors in in-lbs or even just a performance rating from one to ten. Just knowing it still works doesn't pass judgement on how long it will continue to work. Mileage doesn't say much about a VC's status with some Eagles left in all wheel drive and others driven routinely in 2wd.

Specifically I wouldn't trust their testing procedure without a description of how they compensated for a lower initial viscosity. That would effect how long it would take for the fluid to reach operating temperature. Worn fluid may still reach a necessary torque value when actively spun, but would not be as responsive as new fluid. In normal operation the two differential outputs are usually married together without VC assistance, so it would not have the relative motion to build up heat with.

I'm imagining a device that clamps the housing still and measures the applied torque necessary to keep it still while the center turns a known RPM. I would expect an initial torque value for the fluid cold, a normalized torque value for the fluid after a standardized number of applied rotations, and a concluding torque value once the fluid reaches an optimal temperature. All three are necessary to quantify how worn a unit is and how responsive it will be relative to a new unit. 

I would love to be able to strip all my VCs out and send them to a testing location if I can get a formal report for each one that indicates exactly how worn it really is. The new old stock units are expensive enough to make that worthwhile.
Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline captspillane

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 04:36:48 AM »
His statement that Viscous Couplings haven't been produced in 20 years is exaggerated by a few years. They were last installed by New Venture in a production Jeep in the 1998 NP249. The 247 took over in 1999 using a limited slip differential. The switch was performance driven and other makes still produce viscous couplers. 

Here are some quotes I found at this website regarding the 247 limited slip versus the 249s viscous coupling:

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/NVG-history.html

"It's all in response time. The new unit essentially works in two-wheel drive until wheel-slippage is detected; then reaction time (to send drive to the other axle) is about 40 milliseconds. A viscous coupling can take two or three seconds to do the same thing."  It also “integrates seamlessly with antilock braking; viscous-coupled diffs have to allow 'freewheeling' under braking to avoid potential conflict between trying to drive all four wheels and trying to brake wheels that may be working with difference coefficients of friction. ... the interplay between the geroter pump and the progression of clutch lockup allows the unit to more easily tailor performance characteristics to a wide range of applications.”


Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 07:29:22 AM »
I have no idea the procedures they use. I don't know if it's scientific or a a drill and a vice is used. I don't think it has been confirmed the 249 VC is the same as the Eagle's VC and that is the one he was referring to when saying they weren't produced for 20 years. He seemed to be a really friendly guy. Unfortunately I was driving when he called and didn't catch his name. If you call RSG  and tell them you have a technical question regarding transfer cases you will get transfered to him.
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon 4.2L/4.0L head, AW4,NP242, Chrysler 8.25" rear.
1981 AMC Eagle Wagon As Seen On TV  Lost In Transmission


 

"I know he'd be a poorer man, if he never saw an eagle fly,
Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
Click for Fayetteville,TN Forecast" border="0" height="100" width="150

Offline Jurjen

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 01:43:37 PM »
Here  i found some interesting torque curves for the VC.
Note that this curve is for the VW synchro again, but this website has lots of interesting information.

http://www.syncronauts.org.uk/syncro-technical/syncro-transmission/viscous-couplings/refurb-vcs-torque-curves

Use the tab "synchro technical" to find out more.
"sparrows fly in flocks, eagles fly alone"

Eagle Wagon Limited 1983, Citroen C-Crosser 2010, Triumph Bonneville 1969, Yamaha XJR1300 1999, Yamaha TX750 1973

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf0jpiW6tRI

Click for Leeuwarden, Netherlands Forecast" height="90" width="160

Offline Jurjen

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2011, 05:39:08 AM »
I also found some information from GKN:
http://shufti.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/viscous-engl.pdf

GKN is the company in the UK that Roy Lunn approached for the viscous biasing differential.
The viscous unit was developed by FF Devolpments Ltd in Coventry UK, but they had sold the manufacturing rights to GKN.

For production Roy Lunn used  a 15,000 centistoke silicone oil at a fill rate of 70%.
I guess that Roy Lunn wanted to prevent the Eagle going in "Hump" mode (viscous  coupling lock-up) to compensate for normal variation of the rolling radiuses between front and rear tires.

I sometimes wonder, if broken half shafts are the result of a locked up viscous coupler?
The VW guys say that the "Hump" can be recognized on a dry pavement going through a corner feels like it doesn't want to go and one of the tires will be slipping.
"sparrows fly in flocks, eagles fly alone"

Eagle Wagon Limited 1983, Citroen C-Crosser 2010, Triumph Bonneville 1969, Yamaha XJR1300 1999, Yamaha TX750 1973

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf0jpiW6tRI

Click for Leeuwarden, Netherlands Forecast" height="90" width="160

68AMXGOPAC

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2011, 04:53:56 PM »
I also found some information from GKN:
http://shufti.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/viscous-engl.pdf

GKN is the company in the UK that Roy Lunn approached for the viscous biasing differential.
The viscous unit was developed by FF Devolpments Ltd in Coventry UK, but they had sold the manufacturing rights to GKN.

For production Roy Lunn used  a 15,000 centistoke silicone oil at a fill rate of 70%.
I guess that Roy Lunn wanted to prevent the Eagle going in "Hump" mode (viscous  coupling lock-up) to compensate for normal variation of the rolling radiuses between front and rear tires.

I sometimes wonder, if broken half shafts are the result of a locked up viscous coupler?
The VW guys say that the "Hump" can be recognized on a dry pavement going through a corner feels like it doesn't want to go and one of the tires will be slipping.

I have felt the hump on the VW setup.Have a 91 ( ermmm oh yeah it says a 72 ) here in states to make it legal,lol. It is a Transporter with the 4wd synchro, sold a convereted to synchro Vanagon a couple years ago.Both are great vehicles, never knew the AMC and VW had something in common.

Offline carnuck

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2011, 10:45:28 PM »
Did you know the 2.0L in Gremlins and '79/80 Postal Jeeps was Audi/VW? SX-4 would have had the 2.0L if it wasn't for the complaints of Grem owners due to it being "gutless", yet Porsche liked the motor enough to stick it in their 924s and some got turbos!
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

68AMXGOPAC

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2011, 10:48:01 AM »
Now that's interesting, so find an old postal jeep, pull the engine and add a Porsche turbo !! Sweet.

Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2011, 12:08:52 PM »
Getting a little sidetracked, let's stay on the original subject. Thanks
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon 4.2L/4.0L head, AW4,NP242, Chrysler 8.25" rear.
1981 AMC Eagle Wagon As Seen On TV  Lost In Transmission


 

"I know he'd be a poorer man, if he never saw an eagle fly,
Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
Click for Fayetteville,TN Forecast" border="0" height="100" width="150

Offline Draekon

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2011, 01:41:36 PM »
So when in comes to rebuilding the viscous coupling, does anyone know how much fluid is supposed to go in it?

I assume the seals and such are out there, although it may take quite of bit of work measuring, and tracking them down.

Offline Hawk258

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Re: Rebuilt transfer case options with viscous coupling discussion.
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2011, 03:43:20 PM »
I believe the Eaglepaedia has something in there about fluid levels and volumes. But you could google NP128/np129 for that info. But someone here may know as well, I will update this if I find it first.

ok here is the link for the TM, scroll down to the NP 128 is says 3.3 liters (7 pints)

http://www.amceaglenest.com/~iowaeagl/guide/index.php?title=July_1985_-_IS_7E_-_General_Information_and_TSM_Pages_for_the_NP_128_Transfer_Case
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 03:46:41 PM by Hawk258 »


Ingenuity through stupidity, Do something stupid and through Ingenuity you will find a way out of it.

1981 AMC Eagle (Currently in need of a bellhousing OR the project to iron it's self out)

1982 Subaru Brat White (Daily driver inheritence from mom ((Don't worry mom I won't break it))
other prior vehicles include:
1985 Dodge (OMNI) charger
1979 Dodge Ram Charger
1985 Dodge Diplomate
1982 Subaru wagon
1980 AMC Spirit
1982 AMC Eagle wagon (Was going to be parts car)

 

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