Howdy,
I'm going to use this thread to describe the diesel SX4 I've already begun to build. A few days ago I purchased a perfectly restored and maintained show winning 1980 International Scout Traveler. As soon as I drove it I fell in love with the drivetrain. It fits my driving style perfectly and gets incredible fuel mileage. Its power compares to a 304 and its low RPM torque compares to a 360 V8, but it would go further on our little SX4 fuel tanks than my 151 four cylinder could. In my opinion it's the best overall engine an Eagle could have.
The Turbodiesel engine has oiling holes that the nonturbos don't and they were only available in 1980. All the earlier scouts were non-turbo, so finding a turbo engine is quite difficult. I started looking just to find one to drive since I didn't know how much I would actually like it. The Scout I just bought is the first one I've ever seen and it is too nice for me to have the heart to take the engine out, but after I agreed to buy it I told the previous owner that I wanted it to have as a running example as I collect parts to build a diesel AMC Eagle. He then took me behind his garage and sitting there was a complete Scout Turbodiesel engine identical to the one running in my Traveler. He had a completely spare SD33T drivetrain with everything except the bellhousing and transmission that I now have along with a pristine example I can drive, measure, and refer to for help as I build my Eagle. Since I already own the car and the engine, this project has officially started.
The turbo is readily available from Mercedes vehicles and everything else except the block itself is the same as the more common non-turbos. The bell-housing is the same and it won't be hard to find one through the Scout community. A Scout enthusiast also offers a kit to install a longer driveshaft on an NV4500 transmission to fit behind the SD33T. Those are very strong transmissions that are very similar to the NV3550 installed in 2004 Jeeps. Putting the drivetrain together and ready to install is actually the easy part.
I'm starting with a 1982 AMC Spirit GT. I will be end up with the exterior of an Eagle and the interior of a Spirit AMX. The only difference in the body is the floor pan. The front frame has the holes for both the Spirit and the Eagle crossmembers. The Spirit floorpan is about a half inch lower and straighter without any humps on the side. I absolutely love the Spirit AMX armrest and gauge cluster but it only works with that lower floorpan. Even if you cut and raise the dash, the Eagle floorpan is curved too much and the armrest still doesn't work. For a few months the Spirit was my main car and I removed the bolt under the armrest and it wedges neatly into place, but still lifts out easily. To be honest that was very important to facilitate kissing the girl next to me. The shape is perfect for a secret cup holder, even tho I maintain that a true sports car doesn't have cupholders. I will cut the pan on either side of the center section and make new floors all around it but retain that half inch lower strip in the middle. Even if I had to make a slight modification to the firewall, it could be done while most of the floorpan is already removed. Making and supporting a new floor will be the hardest part of the build but it's a reasonable amount of work.
The shifter location on a 2WD T5 is about 4 inches further from the engine than a 4WD T5, but thats actually a good thing. The SD33T turbodiesel has a bellhousing 4 inches longer. I expect to have the shifter come perfectly through the stock spirit armrest.
Another reason I bought the Spirit was for the louvers it came with. The rear hatch on an SX4 is tilted perfectly for sun glare, so if you've driven one you know that the rearview mirror is often rendered useless. Besides looking cool the louvers have a drastic impact on being able to see out the rear window. I have an original set and I am going to copy the dimensions and bend my own for all of my SX4s. Once I do I'll post the dimensions on this site for other people to copy.
I've only posted on this forum once before but I've been building these cars for over ten years now. I will be building a 4.5 MPI NSG370 SX4, a 401 NV3550 SX4, a 304 T5 Station Wagon, and this diesel SD33T NV4500 SX4. I work as a merchant mariner and am home for exactly half the year and at sea for the other half. It gives me alot of time and money to spend on my AMC Eagles. I'm taking pictures of everything along the way and will eventually post everything for each vehicle in its own thread.
-Dave Spillane-
Perkiomenville PA
wow
Quote from: captspillane on August 24, 2011, 05:24:22 PM
... behind his garage and sitting there was a complete Scout Turbodiesel engine identical to the one running in my Traveler. He had a completely spare SD33T drivetrain with everything except the bellhousing and transmission ...
Darn. Like I need another project I want to do.
Sounds like a great project. Can't wait to see the end result.
I am a Diesel guy, so I will be watching this thread with interest. Please post LOTS of photos, as we like photos here. Is the SD33T an International built engine? It sounds pretty rare and could be hard to find parts for. It sounds like you have the skills to do the build right, and we can't wait to see the progress!
Quote from: rollguy on August 24, 2011, 09:48:05 PM
I am a Diesel guy, so I will be watching this thread with interest. Please post LOTS of photos, as we like photos here. Is the SD33T an International built engine? It sounds pretty rare and could be hard to find parts for. It sounds like you have the skills to do the build right, and we can't wait to see the progress!
It's a Nissan engine.
Very unique 8).
Nice project idea(s), can't wait to see pics and details of it(them) coming together.
One minor beef - the NV4500 and NV3550 are not related - they are completely different animals. The Aisin AX-15 and the NV3500/3550 are cousins of the same design, basically really stout Toyota truck transmissions(R-150f design), while the NV4500 is a top-shifter granny-low true heavy duty truck transmission. The NV4500 is huge, short(in length), and heavy.
Either would be a great choice for your project(s), depending on what will bolt to the bellhousing you have available, and what transmissions you can find to stuff in there.
Hopefully you plan on doing a solid front axle/longarm suspension, or maybe you can find the space to stuff the IFS axle under that diesel. If you plan on keeping the IFS, and want to regear the axle to handle larger tires or off-roading, you'll need to find a 4 cylinder Eagle front axle. The common 2.35 Eagle front differential carrier can't be regeared any lower, and even the 3.08 axle didn't fit anything lower, so I had to use a 4-cyl 3.54 carrier for my lower gears while keeping the IFS. The Eagle front axle is a D30 low/long pinion, like the CJ front axles, so aftermarket gearing options are a bit limited.
Swapping an AX-15/NV3500/3550 into an Eagle will mean you will run into driver side floor pan clearance issues, since the AX/NV is longer than a factory T-5 or TF-auto. You'll pretty much have to fab up a transmission crossmember, although its been done with a stock eagle crossmember. My AX-15 swap project is still not finished, so hopefully you solve out the problems involved more quickly than I have.
I'll be watchin fer updates.
Perkiomenville?! You're practically down the road from me, I'm in Limerick/Schwenksville. Wanna help with some rust repair on my SX/4? ;)
Thanks for the interest in my projects! The SD33 engines are Nissan built for a vehicle called a Nissan Patrol. They look like land cruisers to me and I think they're mostly found overseas. Domestically the engine was used in many forklifts and of course the International Scout II. AMC also used the SD33 in the CJ10. CJ10s were trucks sold overseas and they were also sold to the U.S. military as "tow pigs." In high school I almost convinced my father to buy a CJ10 towpig. I did get to drive it and look it over well. The engine fit perfectly in the space normally occupied by a 258. Externally the motor looks extremely similar and has similar dimensions. I was very surprised actually to learn recently that the 1980 Turbodiesel Eagles use a different engine. I had always assumed that AMC used the SD33 like they did with the CJ10. In fact I'm sure they would have if AMC did make a diesel Eagle, but those 1980 conversions were done by an outside company in similar fashion to the Sundancer convertible.
In reply to "Baskinator": Another Eagle SX4 in Schwenksville?! Dang dude that's awesome. I would gladly help you keep it on the road. I've driven mine for many years without ever passing another SX4. I grew up in Perkiomenville but my current apartment is actually on Main Street in Schwenksville. Email me at
[email protected] so we can make arrangements for me to see your Eagle next time I'm home.
In reply to "txjeeptx": Even though the NV4500 shares nothing in common mechanically with the 3550, AX15, or T5 I do consider it related just because it's the biggest transmission I'm aware of that easily adapts to Jeep transfer cases. It completes the list of manual transmissions that may end up in our Eagles. I'll end up putting a NV3550 behind my 401, but realistically I will be severely limiting the potential of the engine. A 401 belongs in a one ton truck or bigger. For the size of the vehicle, suspension, axles, brakes and transmission a 360 would have been plenty. To actually benefit from the 401's potential performance I will eventually install a NV4500, hydraboosted caliper conversion on a custom built narrow Dana 60, with a pneumatic shock assist on the rear leaf springs. If my fabrication skills are up for it, I would also like to narrow and install the heavier front axle, control arms, and suspension from the front of a Chevy truck. I don't want to just put a "401" sticker on the side of my Eagle as empty bragging rights, I'd like to routinely tow some fairly large trailers and boats.
The NV4500 is literally twice as heavy as a T5 and rated at 460 ftlbs versus the 300 and 285 ratings for the NV3550 and AX15. Since the SD33T only puts out about 150 horsepower, which is less than a 4.0 but much more than a 258, I would much rather have the 3550 behind it. Unfortunately the SD33T bellhousing requires a very long input shaft and until recently only the International Harvester specific T19s would fit. In the Scout community there is one guy who has made a custom input shaft and adaptor kit to modify a NV4500, but that kit isn't available for an NV3550. I wish it was.
I am aware of the axle limitations. I own eight Eagles now and I have cut up six other Eagles so far. I have several front axles of each gear ratio. In the rear I'm using Cherokee Dana 44s. The rear calipers and axle shafts from Grand Cherokees with a Dana 44 can be adapted to replace the Cherokee drum brakes. In Pennsylvania there is no tailpipe test for vehicles 1985 and older, but a visual inspection is still required. To get the emissions sticker there must be a feedback system to the catalytic converter for all 6 cylinder vehicles. For this reason all of my project cars started life with an Iron Duke 151, SR4, and 3.54 gears in them. I will never need to worry about fabricating a Pulse-Air System or Air Pump system because the sticker on the firewall says it didn't have one from the factory.
I plan on using the original crossmember and extending it in a similar fashion as "tougeagle" did with his Caroline. There are pictures in this project section of the website. He did have a vibration problem with one of his bolts but I will try to use the original rubber support instead of poly spacers.
I use 235 size tires and 3.55 gears for all my Eagles except the six speed, which is better matched to 3.07 gears because of its lower first gear and overdrive. The NGS370 has a 4.46 first and 0.84 overdrive versus the 3.83 first and 0.79 overdrive in the AX15. The NV4500 actually has the lowest first gear and highest top gear of all at 5.61 and 0.74 so it also works well with both 3.55 and 3.73 gears.
For the record I will never, ever, consider putting a solid front axle under an Eagle. It's just wrong on so many levels. I will also never put my Eagles in two wheel drive. They were designed to be all wheel drive. Go buy a Spirit or Concord if you want to drive in two wheel drive. If you want a solid front axle buy a Cherokee. Honestly since adding the low range transfer case I've never gone anywhere with my stock Jeep Cherokee that my Eagle couldn't go and get there faster. Over the years I've spent so much time and money repairing my Eagles that I do take much better care of them now. For that reason I also own a CJ8, a Cherokee, and a 2006 Unlimited Rubicon. They are nice vehicles to blatantly abuse but when it snows or rains hard you're in for a terrible driving experience. They force you to drive slowly and to contend with steering feedback. The CV joints, all-wheel drive, and low center of gravity is exactly why I immediately ditch my Jeeps for my Eagles as soon as I actually need to travel quickly and safely.
-Dave Spillane-
I've never posted images on here and would like to test it out. These pictures are of the repair I made to my SX4 a few years ago. In high school I would show off how tough my red Eagle was by taking friends to a particular road that had a huge hump in it. Hitting the hump at 65 mph resulted in several seconds of air time. I broke two sets of leaf springs doing that and the last time I did it the leaf spring shackles actually drove themselves through my rear floor. I repaired it with a quarter inch thick plate tied into the frame and also added a full size tow hitch from a Jeep Cherokee. The lateral frame spacing on a Cherokee and an Eagle is nearly identical. I love the subtle location the 2 inch reciever ended up at. The six bolts for the hitch came all the way through the frame to those floor plates. I started with stainless steel bolts but replaced them with Grade 8 because stainless is way too brittle to trust with a tow hitch.
The original shackle goes through an eye that sits on a little pedestal under the floor pan. I cut that out and attached a new, heavily reinforced eye directly to the new floor plate. The Eagle shackle is an inch longer than a Jeep CJ but shares the same width. I bought heavy duty greaseable shackles designed to lift a CJ an inch. They ended up being the perfect size for an Eagle. The brand new leaf springs are also assisted by shocks with a coil spring wrapped around them. They're called "Load-leveller" shocks and are available at "shockwarehousedotcom". They're perfect for assisting old leaf springs you're not ready to replace.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/10-14-09_1422.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/DSCF0076.jpg)
-Dave Spillane-
This sounds like a great project. Can't wait to see the finished product.
Photos are not showing up for me.
I managed to modify the message to make the pictures work now. Next I'm going to try to tackle updating the information that appears under my name. For those interested, this is the complete list of vehicles that I own:
82 Spirit GT, future SD33T NV4500
82 Eagle SX4, future 401 NV3550
83 Eagle SX4, my daily driver. 4.5 MPI NSG370
81 Eagle Kammback, future 360 TF727
87 Eagle Four Door Sedan 4.2 TF998
85 Eagle Station Wagon 4.2 T5, future 304 T5
87 Eagle Station Wagon 4.2 TF998
80 International Scout Traveler, SD33T T19
85 CJ8 Scrambler, 4.2 MPI NV3550
06 Unlimited Rubicon, 4.0 Auto
92 Two door Cherokee, 4.0 AX15, complete black interior from an 87 XJ
66 Oldsmobile Toronado
67 Pontiac GTO
81 Diesel Volkswagon Truck
83 Diesel Volkswagon Quantum
79 CJ7
78 CJ7
68 Subaru 360 microcar (4 of them)
I've also cut up for parts two SX4s, a two door sedan, and three station wagons so far.
My first SX4 I bought when i was 15 at a junkyard for 250 dollars. I then bought another SX4 for 200 dollars. My family already owned two station wagons and a sedan. My father dictated that all of his children must drive an Eagle as a first car. I never stopped.
-Dave Spillane-
That is quite the collection of vehicle you have. Not seen a Subaru micorcar. I'll have to google that one.
These are not my cars, but I have four Subaru 360 sedans like these. They are 25 hp 2 stroke motors, which means the oil is automatically mixed into the fuel from a little resevoir. It also means its a glorified weed whacker. They fit four actually pretty comfortably. 66 MPG. 66 MPH top speed. Manual choke exactly like my lawn mower has. Imported 1968 and 1969.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Subaru%20360/Sub360Green.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Subaru%20360/Sub360GreenCanoe2.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Subaru%20360/TwoTone10.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Subaru%20360/TwoTone8.jpg)
Back to the topic at hand, next week is actually when I transfer my Scout into my name. I agreed to buy it in September and finished paying for it last month. It comes with alot of extra parts including the extra engine. It comes with a new hood to replace the rotted out one. The vehicle has completely new metal on the bottom half of all the panels and in all the common Scout rot points. It is very mechanically sound and reliable.
Its a Scout Traveler, which means it has a longer wheelbase than a normal Scout. I think the Traveler roof is much nicer looking than a normal Scout with the wierd rear window.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/08-13-11_1513.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/08-13-11_1514.jpg)
Here are some pictures I found online. The engine I am rebuilding to install in my Eagle needs the three components that make up the bellhousing. If anyone sees a diesel Scout in a junkyard please get those three parts for me. The last picture is a 258 to compare with the SD33T. They both look quite similar inside a CJ engine bay.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/IMG_2270e-1.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/PICT8310-1.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/PICT8315.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/CJ10abay.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/258Enginebay.jpg)
The Nissan is a tad longer though
This definatly sounds like one of the most probable diesel swaps for an eagle I have seen. Its hard to tell by the pics, but it dimensionally looks very similar to the VM diesel used in the Eagle TDI...and its probably 10 times more reliable. Im really looking foward to following this post...eggs for thinking outside the box!
I looked at the pictures here on the Nest of the Rollguy's Diesel Eagle, and the VM looks like its the worst possible candidate to try to shoehorn into our engine compartment. Those conversions were not done by AMC and I'm not impressed by them, even if I would trade my left foot to own one. I'm fond of reminding people that AMC chose the SD33 for their CJ tow pigs, some motorhomes, and a handful of full size Jeeps exported to Japan and Australia. I'm confident that AMC would have chosen the SD33 if they ever put a diesel into a production Eagle. It fits quite nicely in lieu of the 258.
They are incredibly robust motors. One infamous Scout motor has 700K miles on the original engine and still runs (barely). The engine comes with a sleeve at each cylinder that gets replaced during rebuild. Its hard to describe the driving experience, except that I loved it and instantly knew it was a worthwhile Eagle conversion.
I would love to see this completed. This would be an interesting option.
Just out of curiosity, do you know off hand what the weight difference between the two is? If I recall correctly The vm diesel used in the Eagle TDI was somthing to the tune of 230 lbs heavier than the standard 258.
I found an SD28 and O/D auto to put behind it from a Pathfinder. If my Eagle didn't already have a good drivetrain, I'd think more seriously about it. Probably going to put it in a Comanche instead.
I'm pretty sure that means its 2.8L. SD33 means 3.3L diesel. I also have a complete 6.2L GM Diesel from a low mileage military truck I'm seriously considering to use with an Iron Duke bellhousing and NV3550 in an Eagle. Right now I'm still planning to use that with my CJ8 Scrambler.
Quote from: captspillane on October 31, 2011, 12:39:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that means its 2.8L. SD33 means 3.3L diesel. I also have a complete 6.2L GM Diesel from a low mileage military truck I'm seriously considering to use with an Iron Duke bellhousing and NV3550 in an Eagle. Right now I'm still planning to use that with my CJ8 Scrambler.
I would love to see a 6.2 in an Eagle. It's on my list of engines I would like to swap in an Eagle. My concern would be the front axle holding up to the torque.
If that is a concern, then there are some axles out that are designed for FS Trucks. The big horn edition ram 4x4 uses an IFS so It might be a bit "light" but should manage to survive under the torque load. with a matching rear as well.
I worry about the rear axle because my family has broken three of them. They break from putting the car on two wheels, which bends the super thin axle tube and stresses the shaft and the C clip in ways it can't handle. The torque itself does not break them. On a front axle the shafts are inherently "full floating" design, so they are actually much stronger than they look. I do plan on trying to find an upgrade and fabbing up a standard differential mount at the crossmember for a generic engine swap option, but I also doubt I'll ever see a broken front axle from even my 401 V8. I'm not too worried about it.
Good luck, Would love to see some update pics soon
http://www.advanceadapters.com/products/jeep-wrangler-nv3550-5-speed-transmission-to-jeep-258--v8-adapter-plate-kit/
This is the adaptor plate that allows an NV3550 to be installed behind a T5 or SR4 bellhousing. The input shaft is about 3/4 inch longer than a T5 input shaft. My Scrambler has this adaptor plate with its NV3550 conversion because it retained the stock flywheel and mechanical clutch linkage this way. My 401 V8 SX4 will also have this adaptor plate because AMC V8s are externally balanced and incompatible with 4.0 flywheels.
To install the 6.2L diesel I plan on using an Iron Duke bellhousing with the small block chevy bolt pattern on the engine side and T5 input on the transmission side, with this adaptor and an NV3550. That transmission is plenty strong enough for the diesel motor. I may have problems with the difference in flywheel thickness or starter ring depth, as well as sourcing an appropriate pilot bearing. I'm still planning this for my CJ8 Scrambler, but I will pop it into an Eagle and see how it fits as well. The information might help someone else with an Eagle conversion.
Quote from: shanebo on October 30, 2011, 04:22:20 AM
Just out of curiosity, do you know off hand what the weight difference between the two is? If I recall correctly The vm diesel used in the Eagle TDI was somthing to the tune of 230 lbs heavier than the standard 258.
I would love to know the answer to this question, but I don't know if I'm up for buying a scale and measuring my own engines. If I had a scale that I could stick between my engine hoist and the engine bridle, I'd probably be able to get the numbers as I move them around in my garage. Otherwise I would have to measure the whole car once its finished. That's probably the best bet, since I'm upgrading the entire drivetrain and axles along with the engines.
maybe you could hit a Wheat silo that has a scale there for semi's You could get an empty weight of your truck then weigh the engines one at a time in your truck. it would take 3 trips... but you could see what the weight difference is. Though honestly worst case would be about 100lb give or take a few just as an off handed guess.
Quote from: captspillane on October 31, 2011, 03:32:08 PM
I worry about the rear axle because my family has broken three of them. They break from putting the car on two wheels, which bends the super thin axle tube and stresses the shaft and the C clip in ways it can't handle. The torque itself does not break them. On a front axle the shafts are inherently "full floating" design, so they are actually much stronger than they look. I do plan on trying to find an upgrade and fabbing up a standard differential mount at the crossmember for a generic engine swap option, but I also doubt I'll ever see a broken front axle from even my 401 V8. I'm not too worried about it.
What diff are you running? Non-C-clip D35s don't seem to do that. Of course switching to a D44 is a nice upgrade, but since you're doing diesel, I'd try to find a Mopar D60 from a B body (although they were more popular from the factory in Canada than down here)
Quote from: captspillane on October 31, 2011, 12:39:37 PM
I'm pretty sure that means its 2.8L. SD33 means 3.3L diesel. I also have a complete 6.2L GM Diesel from a low mileage military truck I'm seriously considering to use with an Iron Duke bellhousing and NV3550 in an Eagle. Right now I'm still planning to use that with my CJ8 Scrambler.
It is indeed a 2.8L which should be fine for powering an MJ or Spirit commuter but it won't be speedy (no turbo option). Not mine but here's how they look/run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwHocrYt4_k
90 hp and 125 ft/lbs or torque
I have not updated this thread since November because my computer refuses to open photobucket. Its an internet explorer issue where it downloads the whole thing, then sends a error message and says the site must be aborted. It does it to facebook about half the time and every time to photobucket. I downloaded firefox and it works fine, but once I hover over the area to copy paste the photo links it won't select it properly. There is no point in updating this if I can't post the pictures I have. At this point I have over 100 pictures I intended to post here just piling up. Its bothersome.
The SD33T International Scout is my current daily driver. I've also recently purchased a Scout Terra, which is the same long wheelbase body as my Scout Traveler but it has a different fiberglass top. The Terra is a halfcab truck style similar to the Jeep Scrambler while the Traveler is a full length fiberglass top. I plan on installing the GM 6.2L diesel engine into the Terra frame while leaving the SD33T alone. Once the swap is completed by stealing the custom 40 gallon diesel fuel cell from the Traveler, I'll remove the SD33T from my current daily driver and install that in an Eagle. I'll convert my beautiful Traveler into an AMC 401 TF727. International used the AMC 401 in several of their vehicles, so its an appropriate swap for several reasons. I'm a huge fan of the AMC V8s and I have a large collection of spare parts accumulating, especially with available transmissions. International made good motors and I have one in the Terra, but they have their own bellhousing pattern and are alien to me.
The SD33T is under powered for the heavy Scout. Its great for an Eagle because it has the exhaust outlet on one side and will be much easier to shoehorn under the Eagle hood than the 6.2L. I would never consider a smaller diesel engine than the 3.3L SD33T and I would never install a non turbo SD33. The SD33T is barely enough power for non-towing applications like an offroad rig, but it is terrible for towing or truck applications. For towing ability and a more appropriate match to the intended use, I'll need the larger 6.2L in the Scout.
Here is a message I recieved here on the Nest. I'll post my reply in a seperate posting:
Ahoy Captain!
Thanks for the input on the Diesel SX4. Sounds like you are well on the way to getting it on the road (or off the road, as the case may be).
I just located a SD33 and a 240D (w/manual tranny attached) both non-turbo on CL here in Oregon.
I've been reviewing your diesel posts so far, and I'm trying to put together a partslist for my own conversion. I want to get the order of operations written out before I start buying stuff, and well, you seem to be the mentor for this swap.
You responded to an earlier post of mine, and I appreciate the stance you have for the SD33. What are the points of concern I should be looking at to mate the power to the transmission? I currently have the 151 duke with an '80 4speed full-time 4WD tranny in the SX4.
And... can you sell me on the reasons for not using the Benz 240D? There are scads of them here in the NW, parts are readily available and I'd rather spend my time in the SX4 than waiting for parts to arrive. Maybe this is just my ignorance of the scope of the swap.
Probably gonna start this in a month, after I remodel the airstream trailer, but I'd like to get started collecting the parts.
Thanks for the in-depth and well informed sharing of information. It is greately appreciated!
Here is my reply to the message I just posted:
That's awesome that you have an Iron Duke Eagle. They are the best to swap because you have the least emissions requirements, so the end product will be 50 state legal. First off your transmission is an SR4, which needs to be scrapped immediately. Don't trust your car to complete any trip until you have replaced it. I've broken 6 of those shift levers.
The transmission is the real bugger. I make it a personal requirement that the transfer case back stay stock. That's why I only recommend an SD33T or GM 6.2L. For a transfer case I suggest the NP242, you'll want a low range and the 219 sucks even though it has a viscous coupler and is a better bolt in. I use the 242's open diff "Full-time 4WD" and it's great for all wheel drive. The viscous coupler has very little impact in most conditions and isn't worth the maintenance issues. With the 242 you also have a "Part-time 4WD" where the front and rear outputs are locked, which is perfect for severe conditions or if you break a driveshaft.
I have never considered the Mercedes engines because I don't want to deal with transmission adaptation. It's just not worth it. I personally suggest you look into finding a military 6.2L diesel. That's the easiest to install because you already have the Iron Duke bellhousing. It will bolt to the GM diesel if you switch to a slightly smaller 156 tooth flywheel from a gas GM engine and if you use a fresh Iron Duke starter. All bellhousing and motor mounts are the same as a small block Chevy gas engine, which is a great advantage of those diesels over any other truck diesels. They are also very easy to find because so many military trucks had them. You'll need a strong transmission, so a T18 to NV3550 adaptor from Advanced Adaptors will let you install an AX15 or NV3550 behind the SR4 bellhousing. The NV3550 is much stronger than an AX15, so look for one of those first. You'll retain your entirely stock clutch system, which is a huge advantage.
It's shameful, but your old Iron Duke accelerates and feels more powerful than an SD33T. It is literally as powerful as an SD33. Keep that in mind before you start your conversion. Your Iron Duke with a T5 swapped in will reach 30 mpg highway, and with a low range it will do just fine on the trails. Generally the diesel conversion isn't worth it. If you want towing ability the 4.0 conversion will have twice the power and three times the acceleration, with 25+ mpg and considerably less cost and effort to install. Do not expect to be able to tow with the SD33, it just can't handle it. My SD33T Scout is my daily driver and I often yearn for the larger 6.2L. That's also true of the Mercedes engines, they aren't powerful enough for an extreme machine and there is no point in doing the conversion if you aren't looking for an extreme machine.
I am still sticking with the SD33T because it's perfect for what I want to make. I have a 4.0 6 speed SX4 for a daily driver and a 401 V8 for towing, so this one will never see those applications. The other advantages to using an SD33 include the transmission output. I'll be using an NV4500 so it will mate up to all Jeep transfer cases. There is no other transmission option except the original T18 4 speed because the input shaft is so long. The NV4500 is only an option because the Scout community has someone who makes the conversion kit. The other huge advantage is it's externally the same size as a 258 and it has the exhaust on one side. Putting a 6.2L in will suck because it has exhaust on both sides and you will have considerably more clearance issues all over the place.
Don't forget that a diesel doesn't start instantly. Jumping in the car, turning the key, and kicking up a rooster tail is not going to happen. Don't expect to ever have a diesel vehicle as your only vehicle. You'll eventually resent it and replace it.
Of course you should have a Cherokee Dana 44 axle with disc brake conversion in the rear, so you'll have to plan on replacing and rebuilding the entire vehicle and restoring it along the way. The conversion itself is cheap and easy compared to the restoration of everything else. If you decide to go for the GM diesel, which is cheaper in several ways, you should still expect to spend at least 8 months and about 8 grand in the diesel conversion. A 4.0 conversion done very well should take about 4 months and three grand. The difference in fuel costs will never bridge that gap and the 4.0 is more practical.
Hope that helps. Once you have pulled the trigger and decided what engine and niche the vehicle will have, I can help discuss how to fit it in too. Enjoy!
Although I have my own opinion about the best Diesel engine to use in an Eagle, I am anxious to see how your project works out. It seems that you have been able to find the SD33T to use for your conversion, and even the very rarest of Scouts with one. In all my years of working with Diesels and 4 wheel drives, I have never heard of an IH with a Diesel until you posted on this site. It seems that with the rarity of this vehicle, it should be kept as stock as possible (just my opinion). I can understand the feasibility of the SD33T, but I would have doubts about the benefit of putting a 6.2 in an Eagle. It would seem that this engine is so much bigger and heavier than an Eagle can handle. All the work involved in "shoehorning" that engine in there would not be worth the effort, even if they could be had cheap. I am glad that not everyone that wants to do a Diesel swap in an Eagle, desires to use the same engine. I have wanted to do an MB Diesel swap in an Eagle for a long time, but have not had the time to devote to the project. That would be my engine of choice for many reasons, but mostly availability and cost. The OM617 3.0L 5 cyl Turbodiesel will have plenty of power for an Eagle, and still get decent fuel mileage. That engine in my 3,200 pound coupe propels it down the road very well. I can imagine that an MB powered Eagle would feel about the same, since the size and weight of the two cars is similar....Rich
I found a turbo Peugeot here for $1,000 that I considered doing the swap with (it had been in a front end accident that tore up it's sheet metal but not the motor.)
Keep in mind that most people hear "AMC Eagle" and reply, "oh what a rare car I've never heard of it. Parts must be super expensive to come by and yours must be worth at least 30 grand at auction!" Of course those same people own brand new cars and pay three times the amount for any individual component in their car, wait longer for the parts to ship, and could buy a nice Eagle for the cost of one monthly payment. I've seen more Scouts on the road (one) than I have ever seen Eagle SX4s on the road (none my entire life). You sir have made that exact same assumption regarding the diesel Scouts. My Eagle SX4 is more rare, more capable, harder and more expensive to repair, and worth more. The Scout is cool and rare and all but it'll be even cooler, more capable, worth more, and more practical with the 6.2 installed.
The SD33T was a very common motor overseas and a very common industrial motor. There is multiple sources to purchase a fully rebuilt crate engine and have it delivered to your door. Parts are expensive and rare compared to the legendary 258, but they are more readily available and cheaper than a modern BMW. In all honesty one of the reasons I like the SD33T is that there are plenty of Scout owners on their forum who have tons of experience with these engines and because parts are so easy to come by. Of course I can rebuild my own motors, so I'm no more interested in paying 2 grand for an SD33T than I am paying that much for a crate 4.0 motor.
As far as whether a 6.2L is a good idea to put into an Eagle, consider that that a 4.0 puts out considerably more horsepower, spins up and accelerates considerably faster, and has considerably less cooling needs. The 6.2L benefits from being more rugged, a different torque curve with power at low RPMs which some people like myself prefer, and benefits from using fuel with more available potential energy. Actually the 6.2L is perfect for someone who wants to drive their diesel Eagle on a regular basis. At 150 hp its very slightly more powerful than the original 258, but still very humble and slow. It is easier to source an engine and easier to adapt to compatible transmissions. I would shift gears and install it in my Eagle if I intended to drive it every day. I would never consider a diesel with less horsepower than the 3.3L turbo SD33T at 115 hp. An Iron Duke Eagle is pitiful up hills and yet it still puts my Scout to shame. While driving the 6.2 you would crave a 4.0's power slightly less and have a car that can almost tow something.
The SD33T is externally the same as a 258 and has nearly the exact same torque and power output. The 6.2L GM diesel has nearly the exact same torque as a stock 4.0 and considerably less horsepower. The conversion is very hard to justify, if not impossible. A stroked MPI Jeep 4.7L is by far the best engine for the AMC Eagle.
Here are some stock comparison numbers:
-AMC-
AMC 258: 115 HP and 210 ftlbs
1971 VAM 282: 200 HP and 280 ftlbs
1995 4.0: 190 HP and 230 ftlbs
Jeep Stroker 4.7L: 260 HP and 340 ftlbs
151 Iron Duke: 82 HP and 125 ftlbs
1971 AMC 401: 330 HP and 430 ftlbs
1976 AMC 401: 215 HP and 320 ftlbs
Common 401 Maximum Potential: 420 HP and 470 ftlbs
1971 AMC 304: 210 HP and 300 ftlbs
1976 AMC 304: 120 HP and 220 ftlbs
1971 AMC 360: 295 HP and 395 ftlbs
1981 AMC 360: 125 HP and 220 ftlbs
-Chevy and Fords-
1982 SBC 305: 145 HP and 240 ftlbs
1987 SBC 350: 245 HP and 345 ftlbs
1997 SBC 350: 285 HP and 325 ftlbs
1993 Ford 302 GT: 205 HP and 275 ftlb
2004 Ford Mustang: 260 HP and 302 ftlb
-Diesels-
Nonturbo SD33: 92 HP
Turbo SD33T 3.3L: 110 HP and 180 ftlbs
1982 GM 6.2L: 155 HP and 240 ftlbs
2000 GM 6.5L: 215 HP and 540 ftlbs
Mercedes 300D 5 cylinder 3.0L: 125 HP and 180 ftlbs
1989 5.9L Dodge Cummins 6BT: 160 HP and 400 ftlbs
Cummins 3.9L 4BT: 130HP and 355 ftlbs
2006 6.6L GMC 2500HD Duramax: 360 HP and 650 ftlbs
Here is some trivia. There were 272,711 total Scout IIs produced from 1973 to 1980. 4,222 non-turbo SD33 Scouts were produced from 1976 to 1979, and 5,960 turbo SD33T Scouts produced in late 1979 and 1980.
There were 30,044 Eagle SX4s and 6,123 Eagle Kammbacks produced. A total of 197,449 AMC Eagles were produced from 1980 to 1988. In comparison there were 211,225 Ford Mustangs produced in the single year of 1988, and 153,134 in 2003 alone.
The GM 6.2L was available in full size Chevy trucks and suburbans from 1982 to 1993. It was slightly modified to become the 6.5L used from 1993 to 2000. It was also used in the 70,000 CUCV military trucks produced from 1983 to 1986 as well as the 300,000 plus military humvees made.
Quote from: captspillane on January 19, 2012, 01:05:40 PM
You sir have made that exact same assumption regarding the diesel Scouts.
It was not an assumption. If you asked 10 people on the street (over 40 years old) if they have ever heard of a Diesel powered Scout, and asked the same folks if they have heard of an AMC Eagle, most if not all would not have a clue about the Scout, but would know what an AMC Eagle was. They probably would also know someone that owned one, or owned one themself. We all are into our own different kinds of cars, and each person has different needs from a car. There are many choices for engine swaps, and I am glad you have chosen the SD33T and that it will fit your needs. You also have access to these engines, whereas I have access to the 5 cyl 'Benz Diesels. I agree about the availability of GM 6.2's, but they are not practical for use in an Eagle IMO, so they are quickly ruled out.
I am anxious to see which one of these projects hits the streets first!
I would like to do a 4BT in an Eagle! So far, I have too many other projects undone to start dreaming about another!
Have a great week!
Jesse
Quote from: j2sax on January 19, 2012, 10:38:21 PM
I am anxious to see which one of these projects hits the streets first!
I would like to do a 4BT in an Eagle! So far, I have too many other projects undone to start dreaming about another!
Have a great week!
Jesse
I would like to see it done as well. I would also like to see the finished SD33T Eagle project that captspillane is planning. Then there is the MB 5 cyl Turbodiesel project that I would like to do. Unfortunately, I am in California, so titling an Eagle with a Diesel is not an easy job. There are so many emissions related hoops that need to be jumped through that I probably will not get the chance to ever do it. That is why I hope to see someone else that is in a non-emissions inspection state do an Eagle Diesel conversion. So far I have only seen (and driven) one Eagle powered by a Diesel, and I used to own it. Although I have never personally seen it, I have heard about another one that is owned by Ken (amcconcord)& Paula(Baby Eagle) Proulx in Rhode Island. We (amceaglenest) have not heard from them for over 3 months.
I think the 4BT would be a great conversion, and can be done with ALL stock available parts from donor vehicles. There would be no adapters needed anywhere, but only a little fabbing done for motor and trans/TC mounts. However, finding the donor vehicles is the problem. This is such a popular swap with the Jeep crowd, the donor vehicles are getting slim and expensive. I still would like to see someone do one of these. I would throw a couple eggs to the first guy that does an Eagle Diesel swap!
Whoa I've been reading about the Cummins 6BT and 4BT for the first time just now. I barely knew they existed until you guys mentioned them today. They are inline engines, which means it is much easier to offset to make room for the Eagle front axle. The stock 4BT is rated at 130 HP and 355 ftlbs. Most importantly its compatible with the NV4500, which is the exact same transmission I'm using with the SD33T except without the longer input shaft conversion. The transmission options are always the most important factor and this one is even simpler than the GM diesel. It has slightly more power than the SD33T but literally twice the torque. Its likely more common and supported with more plentiful parts. Wow.
I'm convinced. I agree the 3.9L 4BT is the ideal diesel for an AMC Eagle. I do still consider the SD33T the factory diesel engine of choice from AMC in the mid-80's because it was used in several FSJ's and the CJ10, so its well worth it for me to continue with my conversion. Besides, I already have the engine and am invested into the project. It will complement the stock Eagle components well because it has nearly identical performance to an AMC 258. Will I still get eggs if I go ahead and upgrade to a 4BT in a second diesel conversion after I finish the SD33T?
I don't know much about the Mercedes Benz motors except that they have a very good reputation in terms of longevity. The power and torque is lackluster, but slightly better than the SD33T and an advantage in availability. For me to rank it as a feasible swap I would need to see documentation of people who have adapted a 23 spline New Process transfer case to it. The dimensions of the transmission may also be a problem. The transmisson and transfer case always make or break a potential swap. Do you have any conversion specifics worked out?
Right now I rank the possible diesel engines for an AMC vehicle to 1) 3.9L 4BT 2) SD33T and 3) GM 6.2L. The last one would be best for a CJ because there are SBC motor mount kits and radiators readily available for them. The SD33T is best for an Eagle that will retain its otherwise stock drivetrain and road use. The 4BT would be the best option for someone wanting to see a considerable difference in performance and who was willing to upgrade the axles to match the increased engine torque.
Quote from: captspillane on January 20, 2012, 03:24:47 AM
Will I still get eggs if I go ahead and upgrade to a 4BT in a second diesel conversion after I finish the SD33T?
You will get a double portion if you do both!
Thanks for all the horsepower and torque numbers you have researched. Seeing them all on the same page gives a "birds eye view" (pardon the pun) of the available options.
As far as the trans/TC for a 'Benz engine, I only have a few thoughts, but nothing actually made. I like the thought of using the MB manual trans because it is very short, and would lend itself to a divorced TC very well. The automatic is a little longer, but still not ruled out. Low gear on these transmissions is lower than most others, and that would make it better when using a low range case. If a non-MB trans is used, an adapter would need to be made to mate it to the engine. I have seen it done where a guy cut the bell from an MB trans (about the center line of the converter around the circumference), and the trans being used in the same place. A fixture was made, and the two parts welded together creating a trans that fit the TC in the rear, and the MB engine in the front. It might even be possible to modify the stock trans adapter that is on the MB Diesel engine. It is aluminum, and could be fabbed to fit most any trans. I still have more thinking to do, and maybe some experimenting.....Rich
I allways grin at the "Horsepower rateings" between early 70's 401's and the later - it is only because of some mandate that they are so much lower in the later 70's.I make this rermark not remembering the exact reason for it's change. I have a 72 401 sitting on my engine stand in the shop all most completed, along with a 390 that needs a total rebuild from sitting uncared for in a barn for years.Though the 390 is stock for my AMX, I am working on the 401 to go in it.
Capt. , allways enjoy reading your posts , and learn from them allmost everytime.
This thread has some really cool information! Thanks! Good luck with everything, I'm looking forward to how it turns out. Also, I expected some harsher words on the diesel choice conversation honestly, since this is an internet forum. BUT, way to be super classy guys, that's what this place is all about! C3: cool, calm, and collected. You fellas got egged. :hello2:
Dang! The Peugeot with XD3T 2.5L turbo diesel I was going to buy got pulled from CL just before I got the cash to buy it. It was already 5 speed, so I only had to swap the input shaft and bell to a Jeep BA 10/5 trans and make it work. Far better motor than the Renault 2.1TD POS Jeep used in XJs.
The Peugot diesel compares directly to the Iron Duke. The Jeep transmission you plan on using with it has a terrible reputation. I would never entertain that as a possibility for conversion
Here are some updates to the stock comparison numbers I gave earlier. I added the Peugot, Renault, Cummins 6BT and 4BT, XJ V6, XJ MPI 2.5L and 81 VW Rabbit 1.6L. I also added the whopping number of XJ's produced. There were more Jeep Cherokees made each individual year than the grand total of AMC Eagles made over nearly a decade. Obviously horsepower and torque does not tell the whole story since a diesel motor makes much more torque at lower RPMs, but it takes longer to spin up and accelerate. It's a different driving experience and ideal for different uses.
I do consider horsepower and torque a parameter to restrict the available options. Considering the time and expense of a conversion, I would not install a motor with less power than a 258. Even if the VW Rabbit wasn't front wheel drive I would never consider an engine with only 52 HP for an AMC Eagle. Most cars make our Eagles look like indestructible tanks. We need more power to go down the road comfortably. I consider the stock 258 the bare minimum power to make the Eagle worth driving. I consider the Iron Duke power to be the bare minimum to even get the Eagle down the road, since it isn't enough power to get a tiny SX4 up a tall hill at speeds faster than 40 MPH. That's pathetic.
-AMC-
AMC 258: 115 HP and 210 ftlbs
1971 VAM 282: 200 HP and 280 ftlbs
1995 4.0: 190 HP and 230 ftlbs
Jeep Stroker 4.7L: 260 HP and 340 ftlbs
151 Iron Duke: 82 HP and 125 ftlbs
150 MPI 2.5L in 1990 XJ: 130 Hp and 139 ftlbs
1971 AMC 401: 330 HP and 430 ftlbs
1976 AMC 401: 215 HP and 320 ftlbs
Common 401 Maximum Potential: 420 HP and 470 ftlbs
1971 AMC 304: 210 HP and 300 ftlbs
1976 AMC 304: 120 HP and 220 ftlbs
1971 AMC 360: 295 HP and 395 ftlbs
1981 AMC 360: 125 HP and 220 ftlbs
-Chevy and Fords-
1982 SBC 305: 145 HP and 240 ftlbs
1987 SBC 350: 245 HP and 345 ftlbs
1997 SBC 350: 285 HP and 325 ftlbs
1993 Ford 302 GT: 205 HP and 275 ftlb
2004 Ford Mustang: 260 HP and 302 ftlb
GM 2.8L used in 84-86 XJs: 115 HP and 145 ftlbs
-Diesels-
Nonturbo SD33: 92 HP
Turbo SD33T 3.3L: 110 HP and 180 ftlbs
1982 GM 6.2L: 155 HP and 240 ftlbs
2000 GM 6.5L: 215 HP and 540 ftlbs
Mercedes 300D 5 cylinder 3.0L: 125 HP and 180 ftlbs
1989 5.9L Dodge Cummins 6BT: 160 HP and 400 ftlbs
Cummins 3.9L 4BT: 130HP and 355 ftlbs
2006 6.6L GMC 2500HD Duramax: 360 HP and 650 ftlbs
Peugot XDST 2.5L Turbodiesel: 95 HP and 133 ftlbs
Renault 2.1 Turbodiesel in U.S. XJs: 85 HP and 132 ftlbs
Italian VM 2.5L Turbodiesel in Overseas XJs: 140 HP and 236 ftlbs
1981 VW Rabbit 1.6L Diesel: 52 HP and 71.5 ftlbs
There were 30,044 Eagle SX4s and 6,123 Eagle Kammbacks produced. A total of 197,449 AMC Eagles were produced from 1980 to 1988. In comparison there were 211,225 Ford Mustangs produced in the single year of 1988, and 153,134 in 2003 alone. There was 2,884,172 Jeep XJs produced total, including 286,463 units in 1996 alone. There were 272,711 total Scout IIs produced from 1973 to 1980. 4,222 non-turbo SD33 Scouts were produced from 1976 to 1979, and 5,960 turbo SD33T Scouts produced in late 1979 and 1980.
I actually had good luck with my BA 10/5 because it was rebuilt by a Renault/Peugeot tech here in Seattle ($1400 isn't cheap though!) and he noted the oil used by Jeep was too thick to lube the counter shaft (and Jeep cheaped out by using an end bushing rather than a needle bearing) and the end clearances on the bearings and shafts were too sloppy.
I pounded harshly on mine for nearly 160,000 miles and sold it still working. I agree it's not good enough for a beefed up 4.0L and certainly not a stroker, but it was built for the peugeot diesel.
The one I looked at was an '87 505 with 2,498 cc "XD3TE" turbocharged diesel engine fitted with an intercooler, developing 110-115 hp (79 kW), was introduced in 1987. (only year available in the US too)
If anyone is interested in the Peugeot motor, here's a decent forum
http://www.505turbo.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1896-conversion-of-a-na-xd3p-into-a-xd3te-with-turbo-and-intercooler/
Wow, you've done your homework captspillane! thats an impressive bit of info there!!
Thanks much! Here is something I'm very interested in. Its a 1977 Scout Terra already converted to the axles, transmission, and 6BT Diesel Cummins 12V from a 1992 Dodge Pickup. Its for sale on the Scout forum for $7500 in Sussex NJ. I'm seriously considering buying it since this is exactly what I was planning on creating.
It proves that a 6BT fits into a Scout, which also means it will fit into my CJ8 Scrambler. The turbo unit may prevent it from fitting into an AMC Eagle, but its a possibility. I was mostly concerned about the overall length of the motor fitting behind the radiator.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/92Dodge12VinScout3.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/92Dodge12VinScout.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/92Dodge12VinScout2.jpg)
:eyepopping: :drool: ....I LIKE!! And a great price at that...I can guarentee if I had 7500, that would be in my garage quicker than my wife could raise her hand to slap me one.
I came close to buying a NV4500 transmission recently for this project. That's when I stumbled over something very confusing.
The best NV4500 to find for an AMC engine is one from a gasoline dodge truck, '93 to '01. Those have a 4WD adaptor that bolts to our Eagle transfer cases as well as a 23 spline output shaft. The input shaft is the exact same nose, 1-1/8" x 10 spline and .750" pilot nose, as our T5s. The shaft is an 1/8" longer than a T5 shaft, so a spacer is cheap and readily available to go between a stock AMC bellhousing and the new trans. The end of your transmission to the front of the bellhousing will be 26 1/8" long. (A T5 is 21 3/4" long, an AX15 is 24" long, and a TF727 is 22 1/2" long)
If you find a dodge diesel NV4500 the rear 4WD housing is correct but the spline count is wrong. You need a new output shaft installed for 23 spline. The input shaft also needs to be changed. The Dodge diesel's have a 1-1/4" x 10 spline and .750" nose x 7-5/8" long. You'll still need the bellhousing spacer. This is the next best option.
You can also find a '96 up GM NV4500. Those have an input shaft with a smaller pilot bearing nose and the whole shaft is also an inch shorter. You need to change that input shaft out for the gas dodge version. A bellhousing kit is available that keeps the GM input shaft, but discards the AMC shift linkages for a shorter unit. This is expensive but popular because it shaves an inch off the overrall length and makes the end product 25 1/8" long. The reason to avoid GM units is because the 4WD adaptor needs to be replaced with a Dodge unit to work, which is available in a kit for about $500.
What you can't use is a '93 or '94 GM NV4500. That had a lower first gear than all the others. That was accomplished by a different number of teeth on the end of the input shaft. All the other input shafts are interchangeable except those, and you would need to swap in a longer dodge gas input shaft to work with the adaptor spacer.
What I still don't understand is why you can't use a 1995 and older NV4500 with the 1996 and up short bellhousing adaptor kit. It should have the same splines and length as the later GM NV4500. The best answer I found is that the 1995 and older GM units had an external slave cylinder that used a protrusion on the outside of the case to attach to. It also had a slightly different bolt pattern on the front. The protrusion from the casting is said to interfere with a driver side driveshaft. I bet you could grind off the protrusion from the casting and then drill and tap some holes to mate it to the available bellhousing, but that's just a guess. I'm just going to keep looking for a Dodge unit instead of experimenting.
For my Scout, I can use any NV4500 with the higher first gear. The kit provides a new input shaft that is long enough for International V8's and turbodiesels.
your kinda my new hero!
The reason I need an NV4500 is that no adaptor kit exists to install a smaller transmission behind a Scout. An NV4500 kit does exist. The Scout T19 has an odd very long input shaft.
I wish I could use a T5, AX15, or NV3550 with the Scout engine. The SD33T is too weak to justify anything stronger. I will be looking at the possibility of making my own spacer to go from the back of the block to an AMC bellhousing and clutch linkage. The hard part will be installing an AMC pressure plate on the Scout flywheel. If that can be accomplished by drilling and tapping, without messing up the balance of the flywheel, I think a custom spacer is the way to go.
An NV4500 is absurd overkill for an AMC Eagle. It's a true truck transmission that shifts better than most, but is still very clunky and slow in comparison to a T5. It is also over an inch longer than it should be. It will create floorpan issues. I already have an extra four inches because of the length of the Scout SD33T bellhousing. I sure hope my AMC to Scout custom adaptor works, because that could shorten my drivetrain by as much as 8 inches.
In my case I'm also considering an NV4500 and Dana 60 axle behind my 401 V8 instead of the NV3550 and Dana 44 axles I have for her now. Even a stock 401 is not enough power to justify an NV4500, but I might go further in the future. Another thing to consider is that a TF727 is exactly as strong as an NV4500. As much as I love stickshift, it makes more sense to use an automatic transmission in a truck or extremely powerful car.
It's true that the CJ10a tow pigs used a special TF727 with integral bellhousing that was compatible with the SD33T. I won't even consider that option because the previous owner of my Scout tried it and it was terrible. The available gear ratios didn't match up with the diesel engine. The tow pigs were considered a tractor instead of a car, so it worked for them. They didn't go faster than 20 MPH.
Quote from: standup650 on March 26, 2012, 03:57:52 PM
your kinda my new hero!
Why thank you! It took me three days of boredom here at sea on the company computer to figure all that out. I hope it benefits you.
Yes great info! This is why i love this site!
Quote from: captspillane on March 26, 2012, 04:14:07 PM
The reason I need an NV4500 is that no adaptor kit exists to install a smaller transmission behind a Scout. An NV4500 kit does exist. The Scout T19 has an odd very long input shaft.
I wish I could use a T5, AX15, or NV3550 with the Scout engine. The SD33T is too weak to justify anything stronger. I will be looking at the possibility of making my own spacer to go from the back of the block to an AMC bellhousing and clutch linkage. The hard part will be installing an AMC pressure plate on the Scout flywheel. If that can be accomplished by drilling and tapping, without messing up the balance of the flywheel, I think a custom spacer is the way to go.
An NV4500 is absurd overkill for an AMC Eagle. It's a true truck transmission that shifts better than most, but is still very clunky and slow in comparison to a T5. It is also over an inch longer than it should be. It will create floorpan issues. I already have an extra four inches because of the length of the Scout SD33T bellhousing. I sure hope my AMC to Scout custom adaptor works, because that could shorten my drivetrain by as much as 8 inches.
In my case I'm also considering an NV4500 and Dana 60 axle behind my 401 V8 instead of the NV3550 and Dana 44 axles I have for her now. Even a stock 401 is not enough power to justify an NV4500, but I might go further in the future. Another thing to consider is that a TF727 is exactly as strong as an NV4500. As much as I love stickshift, it makes more sense to use an automatic transmission in a truck or extremely powerful car.
It's true that the CJ10a tow pigs used a special TF727 with integral bellhousing that was compatible with the SD33T. I won't even consider that option because the previous owner of my Scout tried it and it was terrible. The available gear ratios didn't match up with the diesel engine. The tow pigs were considered a tractor instead of a car, so it worked for them. They didn't go faster than 20 MPH.
There is a Nissan 5 speed bell that would bolt to your motor (I don't know the trans designators) that IIRC is also from the 280ZX turbos that will bolt to the T5. I may have this confused with the Supra Turbo stuff because it's been almost 20 years since I messed with it.
The 727 in the CJ10A tugs is a Mopar big block trans with extra heavy duty planetaries and more clutches (same as used in Dodge powered Motorhomes till '77 when they stopped making dump trucks, etc due to frame cracks from too high carbon steel)
Export J10s used the CJ10A (sadly not turbo) in Australia and South America. The motor was also widely used in Chrysler Marine till @'82.
My '82 Honcho has the same really long input shaft as your T19 and I seriously thought about the turbo diesel swap in it. (the engine frame horns from the CJ10A bolt right into the J10 since it used the same frame and not a "real" CJ one)
If you had the SD33 to Mopar big block adapter ring, you should be able to run any Mopar big block trans bell to a trans. I have the SAE 3 (I think) Mopar big block bell in my collection o stuff.
Forgot to add http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/0_best-of-CJ-10A.html (http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/0_best-of-CJ-10A.html)
CJ10A turned road worthy. Now the turbo version of the drivetrain is going into a Honcho
Quote from: carnuck on March 28, 2012, 04:17:00 AM
Forgot to add http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/0_best-of-CJ-10A.html (http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/0_best-of-CJ-10A.html)
CJ10A turned road worthy. Now the turbo version of the drivetrain is going into a Honcho
It is nice to see that John is a Greaser!
Interesting collection of info. Looking into swapping I'm shocked you hadn't come across the Cummins options. They're "real" diesels though, even the 4BT is heavier than a 258.
Before I had my Cummins Dodge I had a TDI VW and absolutely fell in love with the ALH motor. They are stock 90hp/155tq but can reliable make 180/300 without TOO much work (tune, injectors, turbo) and can be adapted to Toyota transmissions. I'd love to do a TDI/Toy swap into an Eagle. I have a clean WJ Grand Cherokee (3900# stock) shell that might get to be the test bed for that swap if I ever get the motivation and parts together. The Grand is a bit heavier than the Eagle (3500#), but MkIV Jettas are no lightweight at 2900#, and perform quite pleasantly with minimal mods.
PS - you couldn't pay me to swap a 6.2/6.5 GM oilburner into anything but a smelting furnace...
Its true that the 4BT and 6BT are vastly superior to the 6.2L. I still like the 6.2L because of its military use. It is tough even if it's pathetic. There isn't as many of them as there are Cummins engines, but there will still always be parts available. There is enough of the Nissan SD33 engines out there that there will be parts for them forever too, but they will be mostly overseas and much more expensive eventually.
The way I figure the 6.2L has a third the performance but it cost me a quarter of the price of a 4BT and it will take a tenth of the effort to install. That seems worthwhile to me. I can use SBC conversion mounts, radiators, flywheels, and Iron Duke bellhousing with it reportedly. It is as close to bolt in as any swap can be. I still have a 6.2L sitting in my garage to install in my CJ8 Scrambler with the NV3550 five speed it already has. Its a good match for what I want to use the CJ8 for.
I'm back in contact with the owner of the 6BT Terra. Its very similar to what I was going to make with my Scout, except that he put too much of a body lift on it for my tastes. I'll buy it if we can agree on the price and if I can lower it back down to stock height in the future. The body spacers may have been necessary for clearence. I'll look at it in person this week.
If I do buy the 6BT Scout Terra then I will take my daily driver Scout off the road and begin this conversion. The only progress I've made recently is taking measurements off my spare SD33T. I think I can make my own custom adaptor to install an AMC T5 behind it. I recently purchased a nailhead TH400 from a 1973 Jeep truck and that AMC adaptor is the same concept I think I can make for the SD33T. Considering the final cost of a converted NV4500, I am willing to pay a machine shop to make the center piece where the T5 pilot bearing will go. A T5 would fit this engine perfectly.
Quote from: carnuck on March 28, 2012, 04:10:36 AM
If you had the SD33 to Mopar big block adapter ring, you should be able to run any Mopar big block trans bell to a trans. I have the SAE 3 (I think) Mopar big block bell in my collection o stuff.
My research on the Binder Planet forum says that no such bell exists. I think its because the International V8s are SAE 3, which must be what you're thinking about. The SD33T is SAE 4. That is a subtle difference but an important one. A gas International TF727 transmission will not bolt up.
SAE 4 is really intended for generators, forklifts, and water pumps. Nissan put the SD33 non turbo version in a great many forklifts and industrial settings, so it made sense to use SAE 4. There is no other known automotive application that uses that standard.
So much for not existing. ;)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/for%20sale%20stuff/d600/070a7ab0.jpg)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y209/carnuck/for%20sale%20stuff/d600/6aaabeb5.jpg)
That looks like its a Nissan to SAE4 adaptor from an SD33. It isn't anything special. Notice where the starter attaches to it. An adaptor to install any other transmission GM or otherwise still doesn't exist. Here is some photos of the SD33 system of adaptors to the special International only T19 four speed.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/IMG_2270e-1.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/PICT8310-1.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/PICT8315.jpg)
Does Phoenix Casting have anything that will help you? http://www.phxgrp.com/saeadapters.htm
The SD33T and SD33 were also attached to a Mopar big block 727 in IHs. The adapter I have is for Mopar big block to SAE3 or 4 pattern trans. My 5 ton '71 Loadstar 1800 has a 345 with the similar round adapter to the Rockwell 5 speed as your diesel has.
Your adaptor is from a CJ10a right? That would be SAE4 to Mopar big block. The gas IH engines were SAE3 but there is nothing compatible between SAE4 or SAE3. The TF727 in the CJ10a towpigs and some IH Scouts had mopar big block pattern transmission bellhousings bolted to the back of the adaptor. Conceptually it should be possible to adapt any manual transmission from behind a mopar big block to fit behind the SD33 but that's not something I want to undertake. I have never seen any evidence of someone successfully doing that.
The adaptor ring is one part of the story. What flexplate does the CJ10a's use? Is there a torque converter snub adaptor? What pilot bearing would be used with a big block manual trans and is it even possible to mount a big block clutch or adapt the hole to accept the pilot bearing? Is the crank the correct spacing from the face of the bellhousing? Where do I even find such a bellhousing and clutch components and at what inflated cost? Is there an overdriven 5 speed available? As near as I can tell all the older big block Mopars had 3 or 4 speed transmissions with only a crazy four speed that had its third gear replaced with an overdrive and a wierd shifter that shifted 1-2-4-3. What starter to use and will it clear the adaptor ring? Will it engage the flywheel properly? Would I need to machine a Mopar flywheel to mount to the SD33 crank or drill a SD33 flywheel to accept a mopar clutch? According to the Scout guys who have gone before me there is no easy solution that makes a running roadworthy vehicle.
In my opinion a T5 is perfectly matched to a SD33 because of the humble power and torque it puts out. Any transmission behind a mopar big block will be a big fat stumbling pig in comparison. I have all the AMC stuff in stock and figured out in terms of pilot bushings and such. I have an abundance of AMC equipment to make measurements from and tons of old flexwheels and clutch assemblies. I have the hydraulic clutch parts already figured out. If the pilot hole is too small I can quickly switch to the AX15 needle bearing without the adaptor ring and then upgrade to an AX15, which I also have in stock. In this case the SD33 is being installed in an Eagle, so thats one more reason AMC hardware is more appropriate and sensible.
Quote from: eaglefreek on May 02, 2012, 12:45:28 PM
Does Phoenix Casting have anything that will help you? http://www.phxgrp.com/saeadapters.htm
Yes they advertise an adaptor that goes from SAE3 to SAE4. This could let me install the International TF727 I already have behind the SD33, if I beat my head against a wall long enough to figure out the flexplate, converter snub, and the custom adaptor length needed. At the end of all that I would have to pray the starter bolts up without interference and at the right spot to engage the flywheel. I can only imagine what the adaptor would cost, especially when the spacing must be custom. It would be much more expensive than the CJ10a I almost bought a year ago.
I could, but I won't.
This Eagle will have either a T5 with a one off machined adaptor or a NV4500 with IH North's special input shaft.
The T5 route will cost about 300 dollars worth of transmission and clutch components I already own plus the cost of the custom adaptor. If I use a CNC machine to make a totally custom part it will likely cost between 200 and 500 dollars. That's a grand total of less than $800 for the T5 installation, some of which I have already spent.
If I go the NV4500 route I will have a less desireable end product but the ease of off-the-shelf construction. Everything I need is a click away if I wanted it done this week and if I had a big enough credit card. The trans itself will cost $1000 dollars plus the $500 IH North kit. Then I'll still have to source a new clutch, flywheell, and find a second bellhousing since my second engine didn't come with one. That will likely demand the purchase of a parts Scout in the range of $400 to $900 dollars. The NV4500 route is extremely expensive, leaving alot of motivation and budget available to adapt a T5. When you consider all the accessory parts between the end of the crankshaft and the input of the transfer case, I do not think I can put together a roadworthy NV4500 for less than $2200.
Quote from: captspillane on May 19, 2012, 01:27:21 AM
Your adaptor is from a CJ10a right? That would be SAE4 to Mopar big block.
Nope. Gas Mopar big block to SAE3 which bolted up to a Clark 5 speed. (out of '75 Dodge 5 ton) I'm thinking SD33T to Clark with O/D (I'm about to part out a '71 IH Loadstar 1800 tiltbed with 345/Clark 5 speed because 5 mpg doesn't cut it anymore)
Quote
The gas IH engines were SAE3 but there is nothing compatible between SAE4 or SAE3. The TF727 in the CJ10a towpigs and some IH Scouts had mopar big block pattern transmission bellhousings bolted to the back of the adaptor. Conceptually it should be possible to adapt any manual transmission from behind a mopar big block to fit behind the SD33 but that's not something I want to undertake. I have never seen any evidence of someone successfully doing that.
The adaptor ring is one part of the story. What flexplate does the CJ10a's use? Is there a torque converter snub adaptor? What pilot bearing would be used with a big block manual trans and is it even possible to mount a big block clutch or adapt the hole to accept the pilot bearing? Is the crank the correct spacing from the face of the bellhousing? Where do I even find such a bellhousing and clutch components and at what inflated cost? Is there an overdriven 5 speed available? As near as I can tell all the older big block Mopars had 3 or 4 speed transmissions with only a crazy four speed that had its third gear replaced with an overdrive and a wierd shifter that shifted 1-2-4-3. What starter to use and will it clear the adaptor ring? Will it engage the flywheel properly? Would I need to machine a Mopar flywheel to mount to the SD33 crank or drill a SD33 flywheel to accept a mopar clutch? According to the Scout guys who have gone before me there is no easy solution that makes a running roadworthy vehicle.
In my opinion a T5 is perfectly matched to a SD33 because of the humble power and torque it puts out. Any transmission behind a mopar big block will be a big fat stumbling pig in comparison. I have all the AMC stuff in stock and figured out in terms of pilot bushings and such. I have an abundance of AMC equipment to make measurements from and tons of old flexwheels and clutch assemblies. I have the hydraulic clutch parts already figured out. If the pilot hole is too small I can quickly switch to the AX15 needle bearing without the adaptor ring and then upgrade to an AX15, which I also have in stock. In this case the SD33 is being installed in an Eagle, so thats one more reason AMC hardware is more appropriate and sensible.
Size is definitely an issue with the Clark. It weighs almost as much as the SD33 block (I can barely lift one up into place by hand anymore)
Quote from: captspillane on May 19, 2012, 01:53:06 AM
Quote from: eaglefreek on May 02, 2012, 12:45:28 PM
Does Phoenix Casting have anything that will help you? http://www.phxgrp.com/saeadapters.htm
Yes they advertise an adaptor that goes from SAE3 to SAE4. This could let me install the International TF727 I already have behind the SD33, if I beat my head against a wall long enough to figure out the flexplate, converter snub, and the custom adaptor length needed. At the end of all that I would have to pray the starter bolts up without interference and at the right spot to engage the flywheel. I can only imagine what the adaptor would cost, especially when the spacing must be custom. It would be much more expensive than the CJ10a I almost bought a year ago.
I could, but I won't.
This Eagle will have either a T5 with a one off machined adaptor or a NV4500 with IH North's special input shaft.
The T5 route will cost about 300 dollars worth of transmission and clutch components I already own plus the cost of the custom adaptor. If I use a CNC machine to make a totally custom part it will likely cost between 200 and 500 dollars. That's a grand total of less than $800 for the T5 installation, some of which I have already spent.
If I go the NV4500 route I will have a less desireable end product but the ease of off-the-shelf construction. Everything I need is a click away if I wanted it done this week and if I had a big enough credit card. The trans itself will cost $1000 dollars plus the $500 IH North kit. Then I'll still have to source a new clutch, flywheell, and find a second bellhousing since my second engine didn't come with one. That will likely demand the purchase of a parts Scout in the range of $400 to $900 dollars. The NV4500 route is extremely expensive, leaving alot of motivation and budget available to adapt a T5. When you consider all the accessory parts between the end of the crankshaft and the input of the transfer case, I do not think I can put together a roadworthy NV4500 for less than $2200.
Another option is the IH T19 with Ranger gear splitter overdrive between the bell and trans, but they are about $2000 when all done ($1300 for the basic unit)
The Ranger splitter would work perfectly in the sense that I already have a complete T19 and clutch configuration as found in a stock diesel Scout. It would not work as is, however, because the input shaft of the Scout T19 would be too long and the input shaft of the Ranger splitter would be too short. I would have to call them and find out if the two input shafts can be swapped for each other. Its plausible. If so that would be worth the $1300 to me, since I would benefit greatly from "inbetween" gears. It would also still be much cheaper than an NV4500 prepped to install.
I still don't understand how you are going to install the Clark transmission behind the SD33. A SAE3 adaptor will not bolt up to the SD33. SAE4 and SAE3 are not at all the same. The only SAE4 to Mopar big block adaptor I know of that exists is the one found in CJ10a towpigs. After you have that, what pilot bearing, flywheel, and clutch assembly are you using? The starter attaches to the Towpig adaptor ring, so it will need the original SD33 flywheel to have the notches to engage with if you use the Scout starter. If you use a Dodge starter and flywheel, how will they mate with the SD33 and is the depth correct? Will the adaptor ring leave enough room for the Dodge starter?