Oil Delivery Issues - 4.0 Swap

[Prafeston]

So my car is cursed! I've had issues every since I bought it and when I did the 4.0 Engine swap the shop that did it said it wasn't getting any oil pressure and that the engine was knocking. I came by and even had them run it for me with the mechanical gauge hooked up and it was showing zero and sounded like crap. I was pretty bummed so I had the car towed home a couple weeks later. When I had drove the car onto the car hauler it sounded like it wasn't knocking anymore, but I had it towed to another shop in my hometown and they said it started right up and was getting oil pressure just fine. They said the carb was hooked up all crazy so they tweaked it a bit and got it running much better. From there I drove it home and several times around the block and everything seemed fine. Then I moved and the car sat for 6 months. That's when Eaglefreek helped me haul it from Missouri to Denver to get it closer to where I currently live and we were hoping to get it all ready for the road at the Rambler Ranch so I could drive it home. A week before we left though I had a friend check the car out and make sure it would still start so we could get it on the dolly. It started right up and he drove it around the block a couple times and called it good. Minus some battery issues and a fuel pump problem the car started and seemed to be running fine again when we got it to the Ranch. It did have a squealing alternator belt though so I bought a new one and installed it. After installing it I backed the car out of the shop and had it running while I cleaned up and was going to take it on a test run. (At this point I had already gone around the ranch a bit with it and things seemed good, minus the squealing belt.) As the car was sitting there running I noticed it starting to develop some lifter ticking noises and came out and Eaglefreek was hearing it too. We revved the engine a few times in hope that it would clear up but it didn't. Let it run for a bit more though and as the engine was warming it seemed to settle down, but was still present. That's when I just decided to jump in and take it on a test run. Get the RPMs going and hope it worked itself out. I drove it probably 4 or 5 miles. And at times it was sounding like a diesel engine. By the time I got it back to the Ranch it was knocking pretty bad. We did some investigating and it looked like there just wasn't any oil getting to the top of the engine.

Vangremlin offered to go take a look at it this weekend and didn't find out any promising news. He pulled the distributor and spun the oil pump with a drill several times. He also pulled the sending unit and poured oil in the hole to try and back fill the pump. Nothing seemed to work to get oil to the top of the engine though. He did pull the filter though and there was oil in it.

Any ideas of what might be wrong? Can I fix it? Should I just find another engine? Uhg!!! I just want this thing back on the road and I thought I was so close! Hoping someone has an answer for me out there. Sorry for the lengthy post!

[rollguy]

I suggest pulling the valve cover to insure all the lifters are in their bores, and no pushrods are bent.  If the oil pump is turned with a drill motor, there should be a lot of resistance as it is pumping the oil.  If little to no resistance, there must be a problem with the oil pickup or oil pump itself.  This may be a dumb question, but is the oil level where it should be? You can also remove the oil filter and turn the oil pump with the drill to see if it is pumping to the filter itself. I am not exactly sure of the oil path, but it will follow the path of least resistance. Other than that, I am not sure what else to try/ test for....Rich

[DAVE]

 I hate to say this but I'm wondering if when the shop did the swap did they use the 4.2 oil pickup with 4.2 oil pan, since the very first they claimed no oil pressure?

[Prafeston]

I can't confirm on the oil pickup, but I'm pretty sure the engine wouldn't even go in with the 4.0 pan. And they did contact me at one point because they sent a box of parts home with me and realized the 4.2 pickup was in it. I cleaned it up and took it back to the shop. So as far as I know the 4.2 pickup was installed. It was the old pickup though from the Eagle that had been sitting for several years.

[eaglebeek]

A 4.0 must be equipped with the 258 pan and oil pickup tube to go into an Eagle. I don't think the 258 pan would have gone on with the 4.0 pickup tube unless the installer used a big hammer and forced it on.

My Eagle TSM says the oil pickup tube and strainer must be replaced it it's removed from the oil pump. From what I'm reading in your posts I'm getting the impression that there's a poor seal between the oil pump intake and the pickup tube. It would be hard to diagnose from this distance, however, and I wasn't around when you were driving it around at the Ranch. The other part of the discussion is that a pickup tube fault may not explain why it develops oil pressure sometimes but not always.

It does appear you may be looking at pulling out that engine and making sure all is as it should be.That would include popping a couple of rod and main bearing caps to see that they're not damaged.

[vangremlin]

Not to hijack the thread, but has anybody successfully used the new oil pumps and screens that are specified for Eagles?  When we swapped the engine into Pepe, we tried to put in a new pump and screen but i just wasn't going to line up and work.  And the old screens don't work with the new pumps either.  Here are some pictures to demonstrate:

Here is an NOS oil pump and screen for sale on ebay.  Notice how the snout on the pump where the pickup tube fits in is long, and also the tab that connects the tube to the pump is long.  Also notice at the bottom of the tube where the screen is attached, the tube is rotated.



From the RockAuto catalog, here is a picture of the oil pump that is spec'ed for the Eagle.  Notice the short snout



Here is a picture of the pickup tube.  Notice the short tab, and how the screen is not rotated at the bottom.  We didn't think it would work with the Eagle oil pan.  If anybody has used this newer style in an Eagle, please speak up.  Thanks.

[eaglebeek]

Vangremlin, was the OEM pump sold as an assembly, not to be taken apart? I was going to say that when I posted above, but my TSM says only the pickup tube and screen are to be replaced if for some reason they are separated. I'm still wondering if neither AMC nor Chrysler intended for the pump and tube to be separated, for the reasons now evident in Rafe's engine.

[DownwardFlame]

I'm wondering if there might be something in the oil pan that cloggs the pickup screen and after the car sits for awhile it settles back into the pan.

[vangremlin]

Vangremlin, was the OEM pump sold as an assembly, not to be taken apart? I was going to say that when I posted above, but my TSM says only the pickup tube and screen are to be replaced if for some reason they are separated. I'm still wondering if neither AMC nor Chrysler intended for the pump and tube to be separated, for the reasons now evident in Rafe's engine.

That's a good question, and one that I don't know the answer to.  Obviously the aftermarket world thinks its okay to sell the parts separately and assemble in the shop, since you can buy them individually.  Which also implies that you could install a new pickup tube on a used oil pump. 

Interestingly enough, the same oil pump fits a 1994 4.0L engine as a 1985 4.2L engine.  The screens are different though. 

[carnuck]

Take the drain plug out and drain oil, measure quantity. Look through the drain hole to see if the screen fell off or if it's loose (coat hanger with small bent hook to see if it moves) Did you spin the pump with the filter off to see if oil came out? Take a can opener to the filter to see if it collapsed inside (if it's orange, there is a VERY high possibility of that)
   On my '91 Ford E350 cube van with a 460, I hooked an oil container full of ATF with a line to the oil pressure sender port and added a little air pressure to back blow the system and I got globs of filter material from the Fram I took off. I had opened it up and found it had collapsed leaving me with zero oil pressure (my photos disappeared when my computer crashed and Photopoint.com, my online album, went bankrupt and folded ) Then I used an external oil filter setup to bypass the filter (joined the lines together) and ran another couple quarts of ATF through with the oil pan drain plug open and spun the oil pump backwards with a drill. More globs of whatever came out of the drain hole, as did chunks of the original plastic tipped timing gears (someone put new steel ones in without cleaning the pan) so I used a coat hanger to dig out as much as I could (oil pan is 23 hours labor to do plus you have to take the motor apart to get it out to do it)
   I strained the ATF and flushed the pan first with engine flush pumped into the top of the motor with the valve covers off (not into the oil gallery) with my parts washer till globs stopped coming out and I couldn't fish anymore out. Then I poured the ATF through again and put on a new super fine filter. After using the drill to pump the system up again, I assembled the motor enough to run and make sure oil was coming up to the rockers before putting the valve covers on. I cleaned out the oil return galleries too, which were full of crud, even though the log for the motor showed oil changes every 3500 miles (with the orange filter)

[carnuck]

Vangremlin, was the OEM pump sold as an assembly, not to be taken apart? I was going to say that when I posted above, but my TSM says only the pickup tube and screen are to be replaced if for some reason they are separated. I'm still wondering if neither AMC nor Chrysler intended for the pump and tube to be separated, for the reasons now evident in Rafe's engine.

That's a good question, and one that I don't know the answer to.  Obviously the aftermarket world thinks its okay to sell the parts separately and assemble in the shop, since you can buy them individually.  Which also implies that you could install a new pickup tube on a used oil pump. 

Interestingly enough, the same oil pump fits a 1994 4.0L engine as a 1985 4.2L engine.  The screens are different though. 

I think the Eagle 4.2L screen sits deeper, but I could be wrong in my memory of it. I know it was different from the one on my '83 Cherokee when I swapped pans for the Jeep factory one with skidplate.

[Amc1320]

Sorry to hear about all of this, sounds like you may have some sort of blockage at the sump, or they didn't put it on right and the pickup fell off (seen that one once)

I think if it were me I would pull the valve cover off and see if I was getting oil upstairs, although it sure sounds lie you aren't.

Other than that you are down to pulling the engine and pan to see what's up

Hopefully it was getting oil to the crank and nothing there got hurt, although the knocking sound is not in your favor

[Prafeston]

Some of these things were concerns I had initially when it wasn't getting oil pressure and had the knock. Then it magically fixed itself and I thought I was in the clear. Guess I should have known better.

Now I have a couple options. A friend of mine's parents live around Colorado Springs and have said for $400 bucks they'd transport the Eagle to me here in Utah. Then it would be up to me to look into all these issues myself in a "town" that is miles away from anything. If I need a part I have to ship it to me or drive a couple hours just to get to a parts store. Not to mention I'd probably be looking into purchasing an engine lift and stand.

Or I could look into getting it towed to a reliable Jeep shop in the Denver area and having the work done there. Pricey, but I'm already looking at $400 just to get the car too me.

Or I could try to find a member in the Denver area that would be willing to look into the issues for me and do the work. I would pay for their time, but would hope for a price less than it would cost to have it taken to a shop.

Or I could just sell the thing and cut my losses. This is not really an option, but at this point I am getting a little desperate and I'm tired of lugging around a car across the US that's not running. I have way too much money into this project already though and I really just wanna find a way to get it running and keep the dang thing forever!

What would you guys suggest I do?

[rollguy]

I would suggest you throw the last option out the window.  If you look at what project Eagles are selling for nowadays (I have personal experience here), you will loose big $ and still have to get another Eagle (I assume you don't have the desire to be Eagle-less).  That being said, I suggest you wait a bit to find someone on the local (CO) area that is willing to work on it.  Believe me, if I was closer I would have had it fixed for you by now.  I think you working on it at your place is not the best choice, so getting it fixed locally is my suggestion, either at a shop or at a friend/'Den members place.....Rich

[Billman]

I'm with Rollguy, I would see if the car can sit for a bit where its at and try to locate assistance first. I have had the same issue with a 4.2 very recently.I ended up with a motor sitting on a cart in the garage until I can tear it down and find the problem. Unlike your situation though I have the engine hoist and tools to do the temporary swap. Once I'm ready the one in the garage will have a complete tear down and hot tank cleaning before popping a 4.0 head and TBI on it.