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Author Topic: Transmission / transfer case upgrade  (Read 15428 times)

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Offline fischrman

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Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« on: January 29, 2013, 10:18:53 PM »
Please don't get mad at me. I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't seem to find it. I have an 83 wagon with big plans to straight axle the front and more in my lifetime.  One of my first steps is upgrading the trans/tc. I got ahold of a 229 out of a wagoneer then found out about the viscous coupler which in my mind is weaker then I want, my auto trans is slipping.   

So here's my straight forward question.....

Is there a transmission/ transfer case combo I can put in that requires no mods, bolts right up and has 4low????
Thanks in advance
1983 AMC Eagle wagon

Tf727/np229 conversion
2100 carb
Tfi
Front spacer/rear block lift

Future project:
-front and rear offroad bumpers
-stereo
-.................
-ACTUALLY this list never ends


Projects done:
-Max lift possible for non straight front axle eagle.
-tfi motor craft carb upgrade
-front fender and bumper alterations

Offline fischrman

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2013, 10:22:59 PM »
Or a link to a post that gives me this info.  I understand some linkage mods will need to be done
1983 AMC Eagle wagon

Tf727/np229 conversion
2100 carb
Tfi
Front spacer/rear block lift

Future project:
-front and rear offroad bumpers
-stereo
-.................
-ACTUALLY this list never ends


Projects done:
-Max lift possible for non straight front axle eagle.
-tfi motor craft carb upgrade
-front fender and bumper alterations

Offline TheWraith

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 07:38:59 AM »
Going to a solid front axle will require a good amount of fab work.  With that said, I suggest you consider any tranny/tc combo that you like or want.  My thinking is that if you are going to perform a great deal of fabrication for the front axle, then don't let 'some' fab work deter you from using the tranny and tc you want.

Do some research and see what will fit your driving style and where you will be driving.  For me (in time) I'm going to go with a 5-speed (T-5 most likely) and definitely with the np242 tc.  I like the 4-low lock and the full time 4wd.  Getting both of these in an Eagle should not be difficult and require little fabrication work.

Figure out what you want, what will fit, and then go from there.  Outside of that, you're on the right site for information/help.  Spend some time searching the forum as you may find the answer to your question more often then not.
I am what Willis was talking about.

Offline BenM

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 11:19:04 AM »
If you're going as far as a straight front axle, I would get a 727 transmission and a 231 the slip-yoke eliminator kit for off road. I believe you can purchase the transfer case rebuilt with the kit already installed.

The 727/231 is pretty close to bolt-in. If you can score an inexpensive 999/231 out of a Wrangler all set up, I would swap that in. That's as close to bolt-in as you can get, you probably need the kit.

I'm not saying you can't use an AW4 for this either, but with a carb you'll have to fab up a wiring harness or pick up a manual shift kit for it, and I believe the mounting bracket as well. Most people doing this kind of build aren't going for a full fuel injection swap.
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1987 AMC Eagle Sedan -- 1976 Pacer Coupe -- 1968 Pontiac Tempest Custom S -- 1940 Mercury (& a 2002 Jetta Turbodiesel, 5 spd., the Wife's Daily Driver)

Offline carnuck

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2013, 10:43:11 PM »
I put the 727 (from a Grand Wagoneer) with a matching NP229 in my Eagle wagon. If I could've found a NP228 (which has no viscous coupler) I would have put that in instead.
   Do you mean non-vacuum shift rather than solid front axle? That's what's going into my wagon (unless someone buys my wagon and does it themselves) $2500 as is with the spare parts (including 4 nearly brand new 235/75/15 tires on XJ rims) or the price goes up as I do the work.
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

Offline TheWraith

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2013, 07:42:44 AM »
Don't know why I mentioned the T-5.  The AX15 is actually what I have in mind.

The np231 is a great TC, but it doesn't offer AWD, does it?  For some, not a problem, just wanted mention it.
I am what Willis was talking about.

Offline captspillane

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2013, 04:12:04 AM »
The NP231 has 1) 2WD, 2) "Part-time 4WD" where both output yokes are locked together, and 3) fully locked 2Low.

The NP242 has exactly the same thing (the three positions of "2WD," "Part-time 4WD," and "2Low") but it adds a fourth "Full-time 4WD" position where both output yokes are connected by an open differential. The open differential connection is the same as any basic "All-Wheel Drive" system.

In fact, it is pretty accurate to describe the AMC Eagle NP119 as just an open differential Full-time 4WD because it is designed to never use the limited slip function in normal conditions. Its not really a limited slip differential at all because it never fully engages anything, unlike a true limited slip differential. The viscous coupling doesn't engage quickly, it hesitates until enough slipping has occured to generate enough heat inside the viscous coupling to lock up. It doesn't actually lock up either, since it really just increases resistance to an output which changes the ratio of resistance first and then causes a change in the ratio of torque split second. If that statement doesn't make sense to you, read my FYI at the bottom of this reply.

A true limited slip differential that reacts immediately to slip conditions is only found in the NP247. That transfer case has a clutch system that made the viscous coupling systems instantly obsolete. It reacts in much less time than the NP119, NP219, or NP249. It generates much more holding force. Realistically the difference between a NP219 and a NP242 in "Full-time 4WD" is negligible.

Since the NP242 has all the modes the NP231 has plus an extra, it wouldn't make sense to ever buy a NP231. The reason people like the 231 so much is that it has a reputation of being stronger. That's a myth that started because the NP231 has a wider chain then the NP242. Bigger is better right? The NP242 has a chain only about two thirds as wide as the NP231 chain because of the internal space needed for the extra functions added. Despite the smaller chain, New Process designated the NP242 with a "4" in the second digit. A "4" means it is stronger than a "3". If it has a smaller chain and weaker reputation, why would the factory label it as stronger?

The reason the NP242 is considered stronger than the NP231 by the factory is because it incorporates a torque bias. In other words when you are locked in "Part-time 4WD" 60% of the applied engine torque goes to the rear axle and only 40% of the applied engine torque goes to the front axle. Most Jeep guys think that the NP231 will hold up better than the NP242 with huge tires because they see the wider chain and they think it will perform better offroad because it doesn't have a torque bias. In reality the front axle of most vehicles, especially AMC Eagles, have a front axle that is much less as strong as the rear axle because of the added complexity of steering. A torque bias then is the only way to get the most strength out of your car as a whole.

Thus why the military Humvees use the NP242 and not the NP231. It's stronger and more capable despite the reputation.





FYI An open differential splits torque by a ratio exactly opposite the ratio of wheel resistance. Lock up all four brakes and all four wheels will have the same rolling resistance, so all four wheels get the same engine torque applied. Remove the brake shoes from one wheel and leave the rest locked up, and suddenly one wheel will have no rolling resistance while the other three still have a high resistance. Since it has 0% of the rolling resistance the other wheels have, it will get 100% of the engine torque. If one wheel had 10% of the rolling resistance of the others, than it will receive 90% of the applied engine torque, and so forth. In a turn this is a good thing because the wheel that needs to go faster will be pulled by the wheel that needs to go slower, so it will have less resistance and thus get more engine torque than the other. An open differential will let the outside wheel go faster than the inside wheel naturally and smoothly during a turn.

During a slippery condition where one wheel has considerably less traction and thus less rolling resistance than the other, it will unfortunately recieve a larger amount of engine torque than the other until eventually it is the only wheel spinning. A limited slip differential engages once the difference in wheel rotation speed gets too big. When it engages it locks the two together either fully or in a given ratio. This prevents the car from getting stuck.

A viscous coupler is not the same thing as a limited slip differential. Instead of locking together mechanically, it simply increases resistance to one wheel spinning faster or slower than the other as it heats up. The increased viscosity of the oil as it heats puts resistance on the faster wheel until the ratio of rolling resistance increases. In consequence of the rolling resistance increasing the ratio of applied engine torque likewise decreases, which gives a similar end result as a true limited slip differential would behave.

In summary the viscous coupler behaves just like a limited slip differential when subtle improvements in traction are needed, but in severe conditions the viscous coupler doesn't do diddly-squat. It isn't much better than any other open differential. With a NP242 you have the option of just clicking it into "Part-time 4WD" for reliable operation in severe conditions.

Notice too that the NP119 can not run in 4WD without a front driveshaft. That is because it reduces the rolling resistance in the front yoke to nearly zero while the rear yoke has 100%. The open differential design wants to then give the front yoke 100% of the engine torque and the rear yoke 0%. The viscous coupler will be able to keep the car moving for a short distance before it gives up and dies. With an NP242 the open differential in "Full-time 4WD" will not be able to push the car without a front driveshaft, but you still have the option of shifting into "Part-time 4WD." Once you do that you can drive the car just fine with immediate traction.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 04:40:46 AM by captspillane »
Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline DGeagle

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2013, 10:47:46 AM »
Thankss for that!  great information! Egg to you
87 Eagle Sedan--86 Eagle Sedan--98 XJ 4.6 stroker--81 Concord--78 Pacer V-8--74 Gremlin V-8- 78 Concord AMX V-8--89 Grand Wagoneers--76 J-10--69,70,71 AMX--71,73 Javelin--70 Rebel Machine, 48 Packard, 47 Nash, Many other AMC's, Fords, and Mopars....
Too Many cars too little time!!

Offline captspillane

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 02:47:40 AM »
In hindsight I jammed way too much information into that last post. I took the time to edit and repost the short and sweet answer to the question, "What's the difference between the NP231 and NP242?"  

The NP231 has 1) 2WD, 2) "Part-time 4WD" where both output yokes are locked together, and 3) fully locked 2Low.

The NP242 has exactly the same thing (the three positions of "2WD," "Part-time 4WD," and "2Low") but it adds a fourth "Full-time 4WD" position where both output yokes are connected by an open differential. The open differential connection is the same as any basic "All-Wheel Drive" system. The NP242 "Full-time 4WD" is very similar and performs almost as well as the Eagle's NP129 4WD.

Since the NP242 has all the modes the NP231 has plus an extra, it wouldn't make sense to ever buy a NP231. The reason people like the 231 so much is that it has a reputation of being stronger. That's a myth that started because the NP231 has a wider chain then the NP242. Bigger is better right?

The NP242 has a chain only about two thirds as wide as the NP231 chain because of the internal space needed for the extra functions added. Despite the smaller chain, New Process designated the NP242 with a "4" in the second digit. A "4" means it is stronger than a "3". If it has a smaller chain and weaker reputation, why would the factory label it as stronger?

The reason the NP242 is considered stronger than the NP231 by the factory is because it incorporates a torque bias. In other words when you are locked in "Part-time 4WD" 60% of the applied engine torque goes to the rear axle and only 40% of the applied engine torque goes to the front axle. Most Jeep guys think that the NP231 will hold up better than the NP242 with huge tires because they see the wider chain and they also think it will perform better offroad without the torque bias. In reality the front axle of most vehicles, especially AMC Eagles, have a front axle that is much less as strong as the rear axle because of the added complexity of steering. A torque bias then is the only way to get the most strength out of your car as a whole.

Thus why the military Humvees use the NP242 and not the NP231. It's stronger and more capable despite the reputation.

I can also add one reason the NP231 has an advantage over the NP242. The NP231 case casting is different and it accepts a Slip-Yoke Eliminator kit cheaper and simpler than the NP242. Several cheap versions of SYE kits are available for the NP231 but only one style of more difficult, tedious SYE kit is available for the NP242.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 02:51:24 AM by captspillane »
Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline captspillane

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 03:09:56 AM »
If you like the NP231 and are considering a swap, consider this option.

Instead of buying a Slip Yoke Eliminator kit for their NP231, some XJ guys actually find a cheap AMC Eagle NP129 or FSJ NP229 to use instead. Obviously the NP229 is better because it has low range, but the same thing works for an Eagle NP129 as well.

1) Find an NP129 transfer case from an AMC Eagle with both 2WD and 4WD mode. Most of us will have them in our Eagle already. All 1980 and most 1981 Eagles have the 4WD only NP119, which doesn't work for this. For low range, find an NP219 from a Full Size Jeep.

2) Remove the extension on the back of the transfer case to expose the viscous coupler, which looks like a donut. An open differential lives inside the donut. This doesn't require much skill and doesn't go into the deep internals. Hopefully you don't disturb anything too far inside or needle bearings will fall out of position. It's a pain to get them back where they belong, but that's still not too big of a deal.

(This extension needs to be removed and new holes drilled to install an NP229 in an Eagle anyway because of the clocking difference that makes your speedo cable not fit)

3) Pull the viscous coupler apart to expose the plates of metal inside. Wash away the special goop inside. It's slightly toxic, so pretend it's battery acid and avoid touching it.

4) Run bolts to bolt all the plates together.

5) Put it all back together.

If you do this, you will have rigidly connected the two halves of the viscous coupler which splines to both sides of the open differential inside it. This locks both outputs together in 4WD to make the transfer case behave exactly like a NP231 behaves in the mode called "Part-time 4WD"
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:34:28 AM by captspillane »
Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline TheWraith

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 08:35:37 AM »
...
I can also add one reason the NP231 has an advantage over the NP242. The NP231 case casting is different and it accepts a Slip-Yoke Eliminator kit cheaper and simpler than the NP242. Several cheap versions of SYE kits are available for the NP231 but only one style of more difficult, tedious SYE kit is available for the NP242.

Here's a home grown, 'cheap', SYE for the np242.  I did some shopping around and was able to come up with a used yoke thereby savings some $$$.  I also ordered one of the seal adapters (that uses the factory seal) from the gentleman mentioned in the article.  He was very pleasant to work with and more then happy to help me with some of the details.

I'll add that when I get ready to shorten a np242 tail shaft I'll remove it from the case and have a machine shop chop it down and drill & tap it for me.  I figure I'll disassemble it for a through cleaning and new chain, so while it's apart...   But, if one wanted to save some coin, they could duplicate the efforts of the articles author.

http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoSYEconversion.htm
I am what Willis was talking about.

Offline captspillane

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 01:57:25 AM »
That's an awesome link, thanks! Eggs!

All of my NP242's are 1995 and older, so I appreciate knowing the difference exists.
Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline carnuck

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 03:53:50 AM »
Unless you have a vacuum front axle, I think you meant 4 lo locked and not 2Lo. ;)
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

Offline captspillane

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 05:36:07 AM »
Thanks that is what I meant. Thankfully this lets you edit.
Currently Inspected and Insured as of Jan 2013:
-1985 Eagle Station Wagon 258 T5 Stickshift
-1980 Eagle Station Wagon 258 Auto Fuel-injected with GM TBI

Minor Repairs Underway:
-1982 Eagle SX4 258 T5
-1981 Kammback 2.5L Iron Duke T5

Restoration Efforts Near Completion:
-1982 SX4- 401 NV3550
-1983 SX4- 4.5 MPI NSG370 (6 Speed)

Restoration Efforts Underway:
-1985 SW- 4.0 MPI AX15
-1982 SX4- 4.0 AW4
-1981 SX4- SD33T NV4500 (Turbodiesel 5 speed)

Future Rescue Efforts- '85 Maroon SW, '87 Limited SW, '84 Limited SW, '87 4 door Sedan, '81 2 door Sedan, '88 White SW, '77 4 door Hornet, '74 2 door Hornet, '79 Spirit AMX, '81 Kammback.

RIP- Red '81 SX4, '84 4dr Sedan, '84 SW, '81 SW, '80 Spirit, '83 SW, '83 4dr Sedan

Offline fischrman

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Re: Transmission / transfer case upgrade
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2014, 10:50:49 PM »
well i'm finally doing the swap I was able to get ahold of a 727/229 out of a wagoneer.   We will see how it goes. I'm going to be doing  a lot of research and question asking... thanks in advance.   tonight I split both t-cases and swapped the back halves.

1983 AMC Eagle wagon

Tf727/np229 conversion
2100 carb
Tfi
Front spacer/rear block lift

Future project:
-front and rear offroad bumpers
-stereo
-.................
-ACTUALLY this list never ends


Projects done:
-Max lift possible for non straight front axle eagle.
-tfi motor craft carb upgrade
-front fender and bumper alterations

 

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