Thinking of a solid front axel......

[Mechanic]

 

Alright guys, buckle up for a long technically laden post.

So, I'm planning on building a trail dedicated rig this summer, quite soon actually. I'm hopping to catch the tail end of the off road season up here. And I'm planning on building it out of an SX/4(no, not my 81 SX/4, I will hopefully be getting another one). Oh, and I'm doing this on a very tight budget for now, that could change if people by some of my vehicles, but for now. Keep things on the cheap.

So, my question to all you folk, in a very broad sense, is how should I build this? I've never built a trail rig before and I'm not all that gutsy when it comes to modification either. I can fabricate and install most anything, but I would need dimensions and where they go ect. I'm just not brave enough to rip it all down and then build it back up fabricating and modifying as needed.

Now, for a quick tool summary, so you guys know what I'm capable of before I move on.
-MIG welder with argon gas
-240 stick welder (not bad at welding either)
-OXY Eseteline torch (good with this to)
-all hand tools
-chop saw
-drill press
-a brand new lathe that we haven't put together or tried yet
-heated shop

Alright, now on to the technical questions.... I was originally planning on just doing a 2 inch lift, some 31" tires if they would fit, a Lincoln locked rear diff and a NP229 with the floor......... Adjusted for the speedo cable.

But now I'm thinking that the lift might not be sufficient, and the tire size not quite big enough for some of the trails around here, and I wouldn't dare put bigger than 31's on a slightly lifted eagle because of the half shafts and the weak 2 piece rear end.

So just the last day or so, I've been thinking solid Axel swap. There are a couple Grand Wagoneers in the Pick N Pull and on for sale for parts cheap on kijiji. And maybe if I could find it, an ford 8.8 if I could find the proper gear ratio.

Now, once I was thinking about the SAS swap, i began to wonder if it would be better to have leafs up front or coils. I've seen a SAS done up eagle once before and it was on coils (Mick's doing) and it was FANTASTICALY done!!! But, after looking at all of the things Mick had modified, I was kinda scared at the prospect of doing that myself. So I thought about leafs, but I know even less about this conversion then I do about the coil conversion.

So, first question, should I do the SAS swap?
Second question, assuming I DO the SAS swap, what Axles should I use front and rear and what are they out of?
Third, what gear ratio (has to be a STOCK gear ratio) should I be looking for?
Forth, should I Lincoln lock whatever I have out back or wait to buy an expensive locker?(trail dedicated, remember)
Fifth, what size tires should I run? I've been suggested 35's but tones of people run 33's.
Sixth, and this is the big one, Coils or leafs out front?

I'm really trying to aim this question at the Eagle lifting veterans (Mick, Rollguy) as if the answer is yes to the SAS swap, I would GREATLY appreciate some in-depth answeres, maybe suggesting some sites that give you measurements for things that need to be fabricated.

[mudkicker715]

My front steering.


Front driveshaft issue now corrected with a double cardan.

[IMG]http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc55/mudkicker715/Y29udGVudDovL21lZGlhL2V4dGVybmFsL2ltYWdlcy9tZWRpYS80NQ-1.jpg[/

IMG]

Still working on it. Just an idea of leaf sprung.

[Mechanic]

Oh right, i forgot you would have to fab up a crossmember cause your removing the Indipendent front suspension and removing the one engine mount.

You also have a high steer kit on it. How did you build that? And what diff did you use?

[mudkicker715]

Crappy stupid second picture try again


229
Its a v8 so it moved

Check jb4x4 website for the high steer.

[mudkicker715]

Bad memory 242 case sorry.

[Mechanic]

You have a different steering set up between you first and second pic right? Looks like you got both wheels connected in the first pic, and got a set up like a dodge truck in the second pic.

On another note, do you have a shot from the wheel well? I,m curious about that crossmember and shock mount.

[mudkicker715]

First pic of steering is current.



Crossmember moved forward ca. 4". Lopped off some of the eagle 6cyl xmember.

[eagledreamer]

Hey there,

The solid front axle is the way to go... I've been contemplating the same thing... I've got all the resources, a complete Grand Wagoneer drivetrain and a complete Cherokee drivetrain and a couple of cars to size things up on. I've thought about just the suspension lift too...

Sooo, I'm thinking the simplest of the three is the solid front axle using leafs... The reason is that you can raise the car up, drop the stock IFS, roll the new axle under with leafs attached and fab the new mounts. For the front use a 2" x 3" or 2"x 4" tube with the new spring mounts and mount the tube to the frame rails. This will give you your front spring mounts. Then locate the rear spring mounts allowing for spring flex. Then attach your steering arm. It's the simplest and probably the less technical to install. Look at some of the sites for converting IFS truck and see how it's done there.

On the other hand, If you want more articulation coil springs are the way to go... It's a lot more technical and requires more fabrication... Look at Mick's wagon he converted to see what you need to do...

I'm waiting for the weather to warm up to start my conversion(s). I've got two cars I want to get up in the air, an SX/4 and a Kammback. They're still predicting rain and snow here, Montana... :0(  Hopefully, we'll get our 2 days of summer and it'll come on a weekend this year... :0)

Mick is the man to talk to about both conversions.... He's installed both and can answer questions on both...

Good Luck 

       

[Mechanic]

That's the tentative conclusion I've come to as well, and yes, Mick is definitely the man. Although I don't think he has done a leaf spring set up yet. I'm hopping he will wade in here soon and give me some pointers on exactly what i might have to do. I've got an idea, but no clue on the specifics.

[eaglefreek]

That's the tentative conclusion I've come to as well, and yes, Mick is definitely the man. Although I don't think he has done a leaf spring set up yet. I'm hopping he will wade in here soon and give me some pointers on exactly what i might have to do. I've got an idea, but no clue on the specifics.

As far as I know Mick's original swap was leaf spring up front. There is nothing wrong with a leaf spring front suspension and will make it easier for someone who hasn't done a project of that magnitude.

[Whuntmore]

There were no grand wagoneers at PnP today.  I looked everywhere for ya.  I'm sure a few months ago Dean Pointed out a few that were there, but both are long gone now.

Maybe the online tally hasn't been updated. 

[rollguy]

If you can come to So.Cal, I will give you my front frame fixture (buried beneath parts):

Leafs are the easiest and cheapest (read Rambler mentality here).   The fixture will aid in making a front sub frame that looks like this:


When done, it should look like this:


The steering box needs to be mounted more solid than the stock brackets are (big tires will bend and break the stock mounts).  It should look like this:


If you use full size Cherokee/Wagoneer axles, try to find a narrow set (not wide track).   Though they are rare, you may be able to use the TC from the full size (242?) on your stock Eagle trans if it is a manual trans, or any other NON Quadratrack case.

Downsize Cherokee axles work as well, but I prefer the 44's from the full size.

[Mechanic]

As far as I know Mick's original swap was leaf spring up front. There is nothing wrong with a leaf spring front suspension and will make it easier for someone who hasn't done a project of that magnitude.

Ok, so it looks like leafs are the way to go then, and what was Mick's first project that he did a leaf spring mod?

There were no grand wagoneers at PnP today.  I looked everywhere for ya.  I'm sure a few months ago Dean Pointed out a few that were there, but both are long gone now.

Maybe the online tally hasn't been updated.  

That's alright dude, I really appreciate you looking. Stupid online tally thingy is never accurate.  

And roll guy:

Why would i need a subframe fixture? probably a stupid question but I'm curious. Why wouldn't you just weld shakle mounts to the existing unibody? Is it a strength thing or that it's just not a good idea welding to the unibody?

Both the sub frame picture and the steering box is fuzzy, but i think I'm making out an engine crossmember. Were does that bolt to?

And the steering box, is the steering box not already bolted to the frame? It's been a while since I've under an eagle but I seem to recall it being throughly bolted through the frame. Is that not strong enough?

Oh, wait a minuet. That subframe thing there...... It just bolts/welds up to approximately where the, I Duno what their called technically, but the brace bracket on the frame. Then it's strait and bolts back up to the front below the bumpers. Negating the frame arch around the wheel wells. Is that what it does? That's not a bad idea...... Still a bit involved, you have to tell me why that's needed rather than just welding to the unibody.

And then the steering, you don't have a high steer it looks like, how did you get the extremely long pitman arm? Lol thats a very clean set up though, i really like that.

And Axels. Your saying that the axels front and rear out of a Grand Cherokee would be to wide? Or are you saying some are to wide? Would I be better off getting one from an older wagoneer or even a cherokee?

And unforchunatly a 48 hour drive each way is a bit much for me lol, I've got a better idea though. How bout you come up here for the western canada eagle meet!! lol there is even wheeling to be done.

[rollguy]

And roll guy:

Why would i need a subframe fixture? probably a stupid question but I'm curious. Why wouldn't you just weld shakle mounts to the existing unibody? Is it a strength thing or that it's just not a good idea welding to the unibody?

Both the sub frame picture and the steering box is fuzzy, but i think I'm making out an engine crossmember. Were does that bolt to?

And the steering box, is the steering box not already bolted to the frame? It's been a while since I've under an eagle but I seem to recall it being throughly bolted through the frame. Is that not strong enough?

Oh, wait a minuet. That subframe thing there...... It just bolts/welds up to approximately where the, I Duno what their called technically, but the brace bracket on the frame. Then it's strait and bolts back up to the front below the bumpers. Negating the frame arch around the wheel wells. Is that what it does? That's not a bad idea...... Still a bit involved, you have to tell me why that's needed rather than just welding to the unibody.

And then the steering, you don't have a high steer it looks like, how did you get the extremely long pitman arm? Lol thats a very clean set up though, i really like that.

And Axels. Your saying that the axels front and rear out of a Grand Cherokee would be to wide? Or are you saying some are to wide? Would I be better off getting one from an older wagoneer or even a cherokee?

And unforchunatly a 48 hour drive each way is a bit much for me lol, I've got a better idea though. How bout you come up here for the western canada eagle meet!! lol there is even wheeling to be done.

       It has been my experience that big tires + rough trails = bent and broken parts.  I know how these things go. You will get your Eagle built with a mild lift and smaller tires and find out you want to go on harder trails.  Then you will want/need lockers, bigger tires, heaver suspension etc. to keep up with the rest of the crowd.   I think it is best to build it as strong as possible, as cheaply as possible the first time. The stock steering box will eventually rip itself out of the frame without added brackets and strengthening.  Check out:  http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=18031.0
       Without a sub frame, the spring mounts will eventually rip out of the uni-body where they have been welded, especially if you have a frame with some rust/rot.  It is also a LOT easier to weld standing up working at table height rather than on your back welding upwards with molten metal and sparks falling on you.  I know Mick does not use a sub frame, but he mounts his 4 link suspension brackets to the heavy part of the uni-body frame.  Keep in mind that he (Mick) is a professional with LOTS of fabricating experience.  For us beginners, we need to do things the easiest and cheapest (there's that Rambler mentality again) way possible.  In the long run, I do think a sub frame is stronger than just welding to the existing uni-body. 
       As far as axles go, I used Scout axles.  However, they are harder to find than Cherokee/Wagoneer axles.   The wide track full size (Cherokees/Wagoneers with fender flares) axles would be toooooooo wide for an Eagle.  If you want to go with 44's, Cherokee/Wagoneer axles would be the cheapest and best.   If you don't mind Dana 20's & 30's, downsize Cherokee axles will work.   If you can make your front axle high steer, that would also be best.  I went with the stock steering knuckle (I cheaped out) and dropped pitman arm for a Jeep.   
      For the engine mount I did it 2 different ways.  The first one, I made a complete fabbed crossmember and engine mount.   The second one, I just cut off all the un-necessary parts from the stock crossmember and used it (somewhat like Mudkicker did on his). 

[Mechanic]

Alright, so what you have suggested would be preventative measures then to keep things from breaking down the line.

Luckily the car I'm using is mostly rust free so it should be fairly easy to weld to, but it sounds like i should build a subframe for the beast. How did you actualy build the subframe??? A few pictures there on your carnage thread i thought I saw a rear sub frame as well. Building an entire subframe fir the car night be a bit much. Most of the wheeling I'll be doing mud and softball size rocks and roots. There won't be any extreme wheeling like what you have done in the past.

True that on the welding virticle though i can't think of much else i hate more than welding on my back and leaning on a piece of slag.

So, the grand wagoneer and full size cherokee came with diferent widths of diffs? That don't make it easy to figure out what truck I need i might just go with the diffs out of an 80's Cherokee then. Then keep my eyes out for some bigger diffs.

And what would be the easiest engine mount/crossmember? Fabing up a new one, or modifying the old one?