Discussion of built driveline

[mudkicker715]

What series of U-joints to Eagles use in the driveshafts?

1310

[wagonmaster]

did you ever work out what master cylinder to use? im thinking about a ford 8.8 swap down the road.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Hadn't tackled the MC question yet.

Been busy with other things.

I *did* just notice that the shock mounts are on opposite sides between the D44 and the Eagle D35.

The left shock mount on the Eagle is in front of the axle.

I think I will cut the shock mounts off a spare Eagle axle we have and have them welded onto the D44 so that it can take dual shocks. There's room on the body for dual shocks. The only potential problem is that the exhaust will have to be re-routed on the left side.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I have been working on this... just haven't posted it here...



So I'm going to add weld-on shock mounts to the D44:
http://www.tellico4x4.com/product_info.php/cPath/91_1790_3033/products_id/19237

I say "add" because I'm going to keep the originals also. There's real estate on the underbody for QUAD shocks. With extra shock mounts on the axle, I can install riv-nuts or nut plates in the body and actually have quad shocks... Also will have to have new tail pipe bent up to clear the new shock on the left side, but that's not such a big deal.




So I finally got around to thoroughly inspecting my target chassis...

The right side frame horn is trash... rusted away. The car is unit body. This is the structural member that goes from the engine compartment back under the passenger side floor pan.

Also, the right side rocker panel is simply *GONE*. I didn't see it earlier because there's a urethane "sheath" that covers it... similar to a side skirt, but it's so high off the ground that it really isn't a side skirt.

So I paid $500 for an Eagle stickshift swap kit...

My dad has an extra body in the back yard that he'll let me take over. It's an automatic, but I can take care of that. 

I snagged an extra transmission not too long after I decided I'd do this. It's another Eagle T5.



I pulled the T-case adapter off it and counted teeth. It has the 53/23 fifth gear pair. There is a 61/25 fifth pair that is good for a 5.8% taller fifth gear.

I originally thought that the Eagles had 0.81 fifth gears, but my dad's found references to them having 0.76 fifth gears. Swapping from the 53/23 to the 61/25 would move 5th from 0.76 to 0.72.
That's probably the widest ratio spread I can have in a T5, however, there are some info pages my dad's found that I haven't had the time to fully examine yet.

http://www.allstategear.com/T5.htm

http://www.mackstrans.com/BorgWarnerT5.html

http://cobratransmission.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_1813&sort=20a&page=1

Edit: Giant jumble of T5 info:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/Detailed/349.shtml
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/transmission_spec.htm
http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/tremec_t5.htm
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/manual_transmission_overhaul_kits/borg_warner_t5_overhaul_kit.html
http://www.flatheadv8.org/t5-swap.htm
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169265
http://www.vanpeltsales.com/FH_web/t5_fivespeed.htm
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-5.asp
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm
http://www.adchevy.com/techtips/t5list/
http://www.inliners.org/Jack/t5_page.html[/quote]

I want the 4.03 first and 0.72 fifth... that's the widest ratio spread I can get and will give me a 37:1 crawl ratio.

It won't be so sporting on pavement, but it's an Eagle. The most powerful engine it's ever going to get is a stock 4.0 HO at 190/220ish.

Regular Jeep transmissions use:
Input: 21:37
1st: 14:32
2nd: 23:31
3rd: 32:27
5th: 53:23

My extra transmission has:

Input: 21:37
1st: 14:32
2nd: 23:31
3rd: 34:29
5th: 53:23

It has the 4.03 First and 0.76 fifth (53:23). That means I can swap in the 61/25 fifth pair and have 0.72. Sweeeet.
So it has a *slightly* shorter 3rd than the Jeep units. The countershaft with 37/34/23/X/14 doesn't show up on my parts lists, however.

I'm @$$uming it has the 9.312 input shaft since it's an AMC/Jeep, but that's pretty difficult to tell from the 9.250 input shaft with the trans assembled. Is there an external feature I can measure to definitively tell me which one I have?

Got the transfer case parts put together over the weekend. I haven't done the final assembly, but I have all the parts for the 2 speed case on the bench.

The Eagles were built with NP 119 T-cases. These are single speed units that are selectable for 2WD or AWD.
The Wagoneers were built with NP 229 T-cases. These are two speed units that are selectable for 2WH, AWH, N or 4WL. In low range the center diff is locked and the VC is out of the picture.

The 119 and 229 share the same castings for the external case. The volume occupied by the low range gearset in the 229 is simply empty in the 119. The 119 cases were *typically* not machined with the receiver holes for the low range shift rail, although the boss for that receiver was still in the casting. All rear cases have the bosses cast in and cored for two different clockings of the extension housing (where the speedometer cable gear drive lives). One set of holes is drilled in the 119 and the other set in the 229. The 229 drilling places the extension housing at an angle such that the speedometer cable hits the floorpan of the Eagle body. Thus the 229 is not a direct swap into an Eagle.

There are two options to swap a 229 into an Eagle:
1) Bore the receiver hole for the low range shift rail in the 119 rear case half and put it together with the 229 front case half.
2) Drill and tap the extra bolt pattern for the extension housing in the back of the 229 case half so that the extension housing can be clocked correctly for the Eagle body.

Since 1 involves indicating and boring one hole while 2 involves indicating and boring six holes, 1 is the typical option. My dad had converted two Eagles previously to 229 T-cases and has bored the receiver hole in both setups. Once you know the location to bore, it's fairly easy... indicate in on the dowel pin locations, then go to the hole coordinates and cut metal.

There is the theoretical alternative of simply drilling and tapping the cored locations for the extension housing bolt pattern using a drill press--essentially relying on the core hole to be a pilot hole. We're not sure the core holes are located accurately enough to do that. The extension housing is located by a shoulder and doesn't depend on these holes to locate it, but you still have to be able to install the bolts.

So anyway, I took a 119 and a 229 apart over the weekend, expecting that the receiver hole could be bored this coming week and I could do final assembly next weekend. I was pleasantly surprised to find that the 119 I took apart *already* had the receiver hole bored. Score! I swapped the 119 rear case onto the 229 (and vice versa) and will clean + final assemble next weekend.

There's an external bracket that has to be modified to work in the Eagle body, and my dad's taking care of that with the welder this week.

I ordered the 61 tooth gear for the T5 (already had the 25T) so I can swap that over next weekend. Then with just a clean-up I'll be able to put the trans and T-case together. I can probably make time to sand blast and paint the front diff next weekend also... We'll see.

Going from 0.76 with 2.73 to 0.72 with 3.54 will unfortunately result in a 23% increase in cruising RPM, but that's better than the 30% it would have been with just the 2.73 to 3.54 swap.

2.07 = 0.76 * 2.73
2.55 = 0.72 * 3.54

[txjeeptx]

Nice work, eggcelent info. You have all the luck - first the XJ D44, then the 119 case with the shift rail hole already bored. Makes you almost forget about the rust issues.

I've dealt with All State Gear - they really know their stuff. My AX-15 in my Eagle is from them. Good gearheads.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I order from Cobra ( http://cobratransmission.com/ )
They had the 61 for ~$90, while I saw $115 and $135 elsewhere. I don't remember looking at All State.

I don't know if I'd call it luck... I'm *still* building the car 

[captspillane]

What speedometer gear do the 4 cyl Eagles have? Do the 3.54 cars have the same drive gear as the 2.73 cars? Should I only have to change the driven gear?

My 3.54 Cherokee and my 3.54 Eagle had the exact same red speedo gear. To be specific the top of the gear and the clocking is the same but the bottom clips into the electric part differently. Both red gears, Eagle and XJ, had the same identification number on it. I used a red 3.54 drive gear with a transfer case from a 2.35 car and it worked fine, so it confirms that they have the same gear inside the transfer case. The transfer case adaptor clocks into four different spots to account for the difference in diameter from 2.35 to 3.54 speedo gears.

Early YJ's had a mechanical speedometer with a 4.0 electric plug built right into the transfer case adaptor. Dodge trucks also had a similar adaptor, except that those are in two pieces. My 1992 Cherokee has the exact same adaptor except that the hole for the mechanical speedometer cable is covered by a flap of plastic because the Cherokee uses the wires only. You can purchase the adaptor off the shelf at a parts store. If you convert it now you can order one speedo gear for a YJ instead of ordering one now and another later.

Great thread! This is exactly what I'm planning to do with my two Cherokee Dana44s. The rear disc brakes are the biggest performance difference between a car made in the '80's and one made today.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Thanks!
Is there an electronic speedometer that's an easy swap?

I'll be converting to GM EFI (using a modified distributor) eventually, and it would be handy to not have to mess with a speedometer cable.

[captspillane]

I am personally using a speedo and tachometer from a 1992 XJ. It takes some work to fit into the dash, but I think the end product will look totally stock. I included a picture of my work so far as well as a picture of the red 3.54 gear next to the white 2.35 gear.

You can walk into a parts store and walk out with the adaptor. A friend of mine just did that for his International Scout, and I think he spent 30 dollars for a 1989 YJ adaptor. That piece goes into the transfer case and has a mechanical cable in the center and the plug for the wire off to the side. I'm hoping to take a common 1992 XJ adaptor and cut out the plastic to expose the mechanical part since its the same shape. Newer XJ's have an all electronic piece that still uses the same plug in gears. The dodge version is a plug in piece that bridges a CJ adaptor at the transfer case and the speedo cable. All the Jeeps use a speedometer cable with threads at both ends, which I love. I hate having to dump the fluid everytime I want to pull the transfer case just because the speedo cable is one piece. Hesco sells that Dodge version for 122 dollars but its available for much less elsewhere.

[The Dark Side of Will]

There's an external bracket that has to be modified to work in the Eagle body, and my dad's taking care of that with the welder this week.

I was reminded upon reading this thread: http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=35761.0
that the Wagoneer linkage bracket needs to be modified only to clear the 998/999 shift arm. Since I have a T5, I don't need to do that.

[captspillane]

I went to Autozone yesterday. The speed sensor is available new there for 70 dollars. Hesco wants 122. I just found it on the evil bay for 28.03 (buy it now, free shipping). Helpful search terms to find what you want include the words "new" "speed" "sensor" "transmission" "vehicle" "Dodge" and "Dakota".

The same one was used on 88-93 Dodge Dakotas as well as 91 to 93 YJ's. The Speed Sensor has an input and an output. It screws into the CJ style transfer case adaptor that is also used in a 1992 XJ. The XJ speed sensor is nearly identical except that it doesn't have the threads and hole for the mechanical speedometer.

[captspillane]

Here's some more information I just wrote about the 28 dollar speed sensor I just found.

The same one was used on 88-93 Dodge Dakotas as well as 91 to 93 YJ's. The Speed Sensor has an input and an output. It screws into the CJ style transfer case adaptor that is also used in a 1992 XJ. The XJ speed sensor is nearly identical except that it doesn't have the threads and hole for the mechanical speedometer.

The first picture shows the YJ speed sensor I'm talking about. The second pic, in the middle, shows the 92 XJ version that does not have the hole or threads in the center (to be honest it shows a Dodge speed sensor that’s nearly identical). Later XJ’s replaced this two piece design with a one piece electronic only design. The last picture shows the entire two piece design that gets installed into your transfer case.

Option 1: Mount it directly on the back of your Speedo using a brass adaptor to go from tiny threads to big threads. It’s tight but this keeps everything else stock. “Tougeagle” used this method in his popular write-up.

Option 2: Mount it on the firewall, have original speedo cable go to it, then an International Scout upper speedometer cable which is only about 2 feet long go from that to your speedo cluster. Scouts had some doohicky on the firewall that interrupted the speedo cable just like this does.

Option 3: Get a common 92 XJ adaptor that plugs into the side of the transfer case. You'll need that piece from a junkyard. Thread this 91 YJ speed sensor into it. Get a 91 YJ mechanical speedo cable (threaded at both ends) to go from your dash to the speed sensor on your transfer case.

Option 4: Combine option 2 and 3. This is my choice and my recommendation. You use a YJ mechanical speedometer cable instead of the original Eagle Speedometer cable. Screw one end of the speedo cable directly into the XJ transfer case adaptor and the other end into the speed sensor mounted in a convenient spot under the hood. I’ll have the short Scout cable to go from the speed sensor to my dash. This keeps all electronic junk organized inside the hood.

Option 5: Eliminate the mechanical speedometer totally by modifying an XJ speedo to fit into the Eagle dash. I included a picture of the dash I’m making for my main car with an XJ tachometer and Speedo.

The last three options are the best in my opinion because you can just unscrew the speedo cable and leave the transfer case fluid alone if you’re just removing the transmission to work on something else. It’s a mess to deal with popping that stupid integrated speedo cable out of the transfer case all the time. All Jeep transfer cases are interchangeable if you upgrade later, so you’ll only have to buy these parts once.

[carnuck]

I was reading somewhere about a speedo/odo that is GPS controlled. Can't recall where now (sinus headache today)

[The Dark Side of Will]

Speed Hut (and maybe others) offer GPS speedometers.

Thanks for the info on the speed sensors and speedo cables. When I do convert to EFI, I'll go all the way to an electronic speedometer and ditch the cable entirely.

61T 5th counter gear just shipped today, so I won't get to play with it this weekend unless USPS pulls out a miracle. It's travelling from Miami to mid-western VA.

[doc65]

If it's coming USPS vs UPS they should still deliver Sat shouldn't they?