The 88 I recently picked up had a bit more rust than I initially realized. It's pretty good except in the front on the driver's side. Both the floor pan has a nice sized hole and so does a spot on the frame.
I have no experience in this area so it kind of scares me. I know the floor is easily repaired by someone who can weld, but what about the frame? I know in some cases it can be repaired but I don't know what the point of no return is. I will hope to have a picture of the area soon, but it's a spot in the wheel well, in between where the spring is and where it turns down, it's about 3" long and 1.5" tall. Is this repairable?
to be honest anything is repairable it just boils down to your skills or your funds to pay someone to do the work. the first thing you should do is take a screw driver or a pick and see how much of the metal is compromised (cause if you weld a nice patch on paper thin metal your doing nothing but creating another problem)
The more eagles we allow to go away because of rust the less eagles there are in the world... not trying to make anyone feel guilty but it's a fact. I am trying to save another right now :)
The subframe can totally disintergrate and the car will be fine in the sense that the unibody will still keep the car together. The inner fenders are considerably more structurally important than the subframe. The frame on an Eagle is a totally different thing then a truck or Jeep. It will not fold in two no matter how bad it is. The same is true for rocker panels. If a rocker panel isn't present on a truck like my C10, the entire cab seperates and the door no longer closes. On an Eagle its really just there to clip on a piece of plastic.
Don't worry much about structural integrity, just worry about getting it slapped together to visually look okay for a safety inspection. Worry about the strut rod bushing. Realize that doing the job right and welding it properly is the only way to keep it from getting worse. If you take a shortcut now it will continue to get worse.
Quote from: captspillane on August 17, 2012, 07:02:44 AM
The frame on an Eagle is a totally different thing then a truck or Jeep. It will not fold in two no matter how bad it is. The same is true for rocker panels. If a rocker panel isn't present on a truck like my C10, the entire cab seperates and the door no longer closes. On an Eagle its really just there to clip on a piece of plastic.
Don't worry much about structural integrity, just worry about getting it slapped together to visually look okay for a safety inspection.
That's not the case. The rocker panel is structurally integral to the safety of a unibody car as it is part of what keeps the passenger cabin from deforming in an accident. My husband does safety inspections and if a rocker panel on a unibody car is rusty it will not pass a safety inspection. You can slap it together and hope to hide the inadequate "repairs" from the safety inspector but its certainly going to fail if he finds it which is quite likely.
If I understand you correctly the type of rust you're describing is quite minor and can be relatively easily repaired.
I would also agree with Priya, but check over those spots. what may look like a 'donut' sized hole usually ends up being bigger after you've ground to good, solid, proper thinkness metal.
Anything is repairable, depending on skills and time, and how much effort you want to put into it. but I see your point - this is (possibly) beyond your skills, and seems worrisome.
When you say 'a spot' we talking like a quarter sized hole, donut sized hole or can you crawl thru it?
it would be great if you would post some really good pics of the areas.
thank you for all the quick responses.
no corners will be cut, I know I wont be doing the frame myself.
So I should start by just knocking all the loose stuff free right? It's not gonna make it worse I take it. Then I can assess it and start saving to have someone fix the frame.
The rockers are solid, I had knocked them real good before buying it, all the damage on the bottom sits on the inside of the rail. It seems it had rusted from the inside out.
Pics will be posted tonight.
check the inside as well as the outside of the rockers.
also check the 'dog legs' of the frame.
by knocking the loose stuff off around the rusted through areas you are seeing how much of a job is going to be needed to fix the car. There are shops out there that will just weld a hole shut, charge you a boat load, and then a few months to a few years from now the patch that they welded in falls off cause there wasn't enough solid material around the patch to hold.
If you are going to pay to have the job done make sure that you trust the repair facility or person that is doing the work and never be afraid to ask to see a simular job that they have completed or talk to another customer. Not to totaly scare you off but I have in person seen repairs done to a unibody frame where the frame was rotten into 2 pieces and the shop took a broom handle and slid it into the unirail and then just used body filler to make up the space difference and make it look like a good repair (if the paint wouldn't have chipped over the filler it would have not been known until the car folded in half)
Another tip I can give you is to make sure to check in on the progress of the car or have them send you a few pictures after each stage
(http://i.imgur.com/2MKdV.jpg)
so looking at it again it seems there's two holes here that need to be addressed. The one right one the frame rail and the one right above it.
(http://i.imgur.com/1KJz7.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/86Efw.jpg)
I consider that one not worth saving because of the hole right below the bolt for upper bolt of the control arm bracket. The amount of time and money it will take you to fix it is not cost effective when the average selling price of a solid Eagle is so low. I've seen quite a few people spend months trying to fix an Eagle only to have a very nice one appear for sale. You are better off being patient and keeping an eye out for a nicer one. Indeed the cost of repairing it is more than the cost of a plane ticket out to another state and the gas needed to drive back.
I also consider that one mortally wounded because I see the upper control arm in the first picture. There is severe scale at the bushing. The scale there will expand and put incredible pressure on the bolt, which is also extremely rusty. I've seen ones in better shape that absolutely could not be removed without extensive work with a grinder and further damage to the hole. You will likely destroy the car in an attempt to remove those. That control arm and likely every other front suspension part will need to be immediately removed and discarded. They are not worth repairing.
Walk back to the rear of the car. Look at the bolt in the very front of the rear leaf spring. If your car is this rusty the thin sheet metal used to bracket that bolt is probably gone. That is another major obstacle to saving this car.
If the car has sentimental reasons or a very unusual body style, then it is worth saving. I have a Kammback in worse shape that I'm still fixing regardless, simply because Kammbacks are extremely rare. Realize that you will likely need to purchase a cheap rust free Station Wagon to supply all the front end parts you'll need to finish your project.
The metal you are looking at is in the shape of the lowercase letter "d." There is one very thin piece of metal forming the long side and the bottom of the d, then another thin piece of metal forming the circle of the d. Inside of the circle is another thin piece of corrugated metal in the shape of the math symbol "pi." To fix it you will need to cut it open and replace the corrugated spacer inside before installing new sheet metal across the entire side of the subframe. In my case I am doing this by making pieces of pipe that act like spacers, running bolts through the pipe and through holes in the outside sheets of metal, then welding the bolts at the end to tie it all together permaneantly. If the top of the "d" was rusted through it wouldn't be a big deal. That's just flat sheet metal. In your car the center of the D is rotted through, which is considerably worse. It can't be fixed without cutting it open and getting to the support in the center.
A daily driven severly rotted AMC Eagle is ten times as safe as a perfectly restored CJ7 and a thousand times safer than a motorcycle.
Thanks for the honest response.
I had also been working on this mostly in the dark, literally, and yesterday I had a chance to do some work under it during the day. The more I poke around the worse I see it. A similar hole exists on the passenger side, as well as a hole right in front of where the cross member attaches, on the driver side rot has all but made a hole along the entire rail in front of the spring as well. It seems it would just need the entire front sub frame rebuilt from scratch.
I've already started the process of finding another one to work on.
Where are you? I just happen to know where there a couple of wagons that are now capable of being daily drivers. If you want a project the one with the new reman motor and rebuilt tranny and transfer case needs a paint job. ;)
These are in Arkansas. I would offer to drive them to you but don't have the time and would need transportation money back home.
I'm in Connecticut. There's a few up here I'm looking at. How much does a running and relatively rust free one go for in your area?
What do you guys think?
Here's another one I'm looking at. I'm not sure what was meant by the sheet metal that holds on the front of the spring. This would appear fine to me. I see a few places where it seems rot is forming, but nothing seems to be rotted through, except for the floor pan which I would be confident in repairing.
(http://i.imgur.com/T7i8yl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/rlPGE.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/yEKvRl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/MbXREl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/VXVxol.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/h2EM1l.jpg)
In your last two pictures you'll see the bolt and nut at the front of the leaf spring. That nut is up against a flat piece of metal that forms a box around the nut. The thin metal forming that box is often disintergrated and it is very difficult to repair because of its location. It is something to scrutinize in any Eagle you purchase.
Getting that bolt out can be one of the most difficult jobs you can undertake in an Eagle. It's a nightmare. It took over 12 hours to remove those bolts on my SX4. They looked to be in the exact same condition as this Eagle. When its this rusted it can certainly be repaired, but expect it to demand a great deal of effort and patience.
The bolt rusted itself to the metal sleeve, which refused to spin because it was bonded to the rubber. You can't cut the bolt without the rubber burning up or without damaging the critical sections of steel that make up the bolt eye. I used this setup to pull it off. The C clamp is putting pressure on the bolt while I spin it. I'm able to spin the bolt while still putting clamp pressure on it because I used the adaptor from a steering wheel puller set to go over and around the ratchet head.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/BILD0264.jpg)
Quote from: priya on August 17, 2012, 01:38:29 PM
Quote from: captspillane on August 17, 2012, 07:02:44 AM
If a rocker panel isn't present on a truck like my C10, the entire cab seperates and the door no longer closes. On an Eagle its really just there to clip on a piece of plastic.
That's not the case. The rocker panel is structurally integral to the safety of a unibody car as it is part of what keeps the passenger cabin from deforming in an accident.
I've seen many people scrap Eagles because of hysteria. A hole in the rocker panel of an Eagle and moderate subframe rot is not a big deal on an Eagle. It's extremely over-rated. The chore of removing rusty bolts, not safety concerns, is what really makes a rusty Eagle more trouble than its worth. After 12 hours of struggling on a single bolt you'll be very tempted to scrap the car and use the money to buy a Jeep Cherokee. Eagles are considerably more difficult to work on than other vehicles of similar age, value, and capability. They are not a cheap and easy vehicle to own.
The AMC Eagle is literally a 1970 Hornet with new trim and a new crossmember. The 1970 version of unibody is much different than the 2012 version. The AMC Eagle was considered a very safe vehicle for its day because the solid bumper is bolted to weak links bolted to the body. In 2012 bumpers are plastic covering waffled plastic for crush zone. We're comparing apples and oranges.
What we typically refer to as the "rocker panel" is indeed aesthetic only on an Eagle. In the front the battery tray and inner fender wall is extremely important for structural integrity. It ties directly into a very stiff thick piece of metal running under the inside edge of the doorsill. That is the real rocker panel in an Eagle and it must be intact. The fenders are glorified mud flaps. Eagle fenders are aesthetic payload in the sense that they are big pieces of metal that bolt to the outside of the car's structure. You can drive around perfectly fine and safely with your fenders removed, you'll simply look ridiculous. Likewise a curved piece of metal was added outside of the stiff rigid body member for really no other reason than to look good and to continue the lines of the car from the fenders back. On a Hornet it is a loosely attached piece of trim. On an Eagle it isn't even visible and its just barely strong enough to rivet the trim clip to. That is the curved piece of metal everyone calls "the rocker panel." It gives as much protection and rigidity to the car as the piece of curved plastic attached to it.
In all of my high mileage Eagles here in salted PA the curved trim piece has disintergrated and has multiple holes throughout it. It's normal wear. That curved fake rocker panel's presence, however, has protected the real rocker panel behind it. I simply paint and protect the exposed metal inside and then fill the cavity with foam. I shave the foam and fill it in with waterproof and flexible "fiberglass hair" style body filler. It gets painted and the trim back on.
I have great respect for your husband, Priya. His knowledge and professionalism is obvious in his posts. His reputation and career would be in jeopardy if he allowed a unibody car to pass inspection with rocker panel rot because a vehicle safety inspector carries a degree of liability and an obligation to be professional. His perspective on a customer's vehicle will be different than his own. The question of whether a car is safe to drive is very different than asking if he has a professional obligation to condemn it.
<--- Trout's wife
Wow Capt. Thanks for the info.
I think trout's more concerned about the new pictures than he let on in his post. Any opinions on them? I think we're a little gun shy after unexpectedly running in to the rust we did on our current project.
Phil and I are celebrating that his Eagle passed PA safety inspection this week. This is how it passed. He cut off the remains of the curved metal and doctored the edges to make sure they were not sharp and in danger of cutting anyone. The safety inspector agreed with me. He considered the structural metal underneath the real rocker panel and it passed.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff479/Baskinator/Eagle-1.jpg)
Quote from: unpossible on August 22, 2012, 08:36:54 AM
I think trout's more concerned about the new pictures than he let on in his post. Any opinions on them? I think we're a little gun shy after unexpectedly running in to the rust we did on our current project.
That Eagle is not worth your time unless you're very capable, have a huge budget, and a huge garage with lots of money and time to throw at it. The body itself is sound enough to repair but everything will need to be removed. Every last bolt will fight you along the way. You'll realistically spend two or three years of weekends before you get that one restored. My SX4, and Phil's I just posted a picture of, was in exactly the same shape. Mine has been a steady project for me for over a decade and Phil's took him over a year longer than he expected. Your time is better off waiting for a better one to appear for sale.
Look to the nest. Try to take over someone else's project when life calls them away from it.
Quote from: captspillane on August 22, 2012, 08:44:41 AM
That Eagle is not worth your time unless you're very capable, have a huge budget, and a huge garage with lots of money and time to throw at it. The body itself is sound enough to repair but everything will need to be removed. Every last bolt will fight you along the way. You'll realistically spend two or three years of weekends before you get that one restored. My SX4, and Phil's I just posted a picture of, was in exactly the same shape. Mine has been a steady project for me for over a decade and Phil's took him over a year longer than he expected. Your time is better off waiting for a better one to appear for sale.
Look to the nest. Try to take over someone else's project when life calls them away from it.
Dang. Well, thanks for your opinion. If I could egg, I would. I knew the first car that trout started this thread with was toast, but I was hoping this second one would be a good replacement. With the parts we have from the first, we could have gotten this one in very good shape - mechanically at least.
You would definitely need to give a thorough sandblasting and multiple coats of paint to the underside of this car. It also appears to need all 3 emergency brake cables replaced, because they have rusted away from the equalizer. If this is the case, Dave is right. You will most likely need to replace just about every component underneath the car from sitting and rusting.
Quote from: captspillane on August 22, 2012, 08:27:57 AM
I've seen many people scrap Eagles because of hysteria. A hole in the rocker panel of an Eagle and moderate subframe rot is not a big deal on an Eagle.
I never said it was. There's a difference between saying rust will fail a car on a safety inspection and saying its an insurmountable problem.
Quote from: captspillane on August 22, 2012, 08:27:57 AM
What we typically refer to as the "rocker panel" is indeed aesthetic only on an Eagle. In the front the battery tray and inner fender wall is extremely important for structural integrity. It ties directly into a very stiff thick piece of metal running under the inside edge of the doorsill. That is the real rocker panel in an Eagle and it must be intact... Likewise a curved piece of metal was added outside of the stiff rigid body member for really no other reason than to look good and to continue the lines of the car from the fenders back. On a Hornet it is a loosely attached piece of trim. On an Eagle it isn't even visible and its just barely strong enough to rivet the trim clip to. That is the curved piece of metal everyone calls "the rocker panel." It gives as much protection and rigidity to the car as the piece of curved plastic attached to it.
All sheet metal on a unibody car is structural, even the bolted on front fenders add some rigidity and energy absorption. In fact the inner and outer rocker panels are the same gauge of metal, one is not strong and the other "flimsy" - I know, I've removed and replaced both. I guarantee you that the outer rocker panel on a hornet is not a "loosely attached piece of trim", it is sheet metal of the same gauge as the rest of the body and spot welded in place in the same way. That the outer rocker is not visible on an eagle does not diminish its structural necessity. I know some people doing safety inspections are willing to overlook problems that strictly speaking must fail a vehicle, just because you find such a person doesn't mean they're doing the safety inspection as required by law per engineering data, they're just more sympathetic to poor people wanting to get a needed car on the road without spending more than they can afford.
Quote from: captspillane on August 22, 2012, 08:27:57 AM
I have great respect for your husband, Priya. His knowledge and professionalism is obvious in his posts. His reputation and career would be in jeopardy if he allowed a unibody car to pass inspection with rocker panel rot because a vehicle safety inspector carries a degree of liability and an obligation to be professional. His perspective on a customer's vehicle will be different than his own. The question of whether a car is safe to drive is very different than asking if he has a professional obligation to condemn it.
What is safe is all relative. I myself have driven many extremely rusty unibody vehicles although it did make me a little nervous when I thought about the possibility of an accident. Whether or not a person feels safe in a unibody car with moderate rust is a judgement the driver needs to make, certainly a car does not go from safe to unsafe with the first appearance of a small rust hole, the safety diminishes proportionally to the amount of rust.
thanks for the additional responses.
unfortunately the 2nd one I posted is one of the better ones I've seen in this area.
we'll keep looking. thank you.