How much rust on the frame is too much?

[trout]

What do you guys think?

Here's another one I'm looking at. I'm not sure what was meant by the sheet metal that holds on the front of the spring. This would appear fine to me. I see a few places where it seems rot is forming, but nothing seems to be rotted through, except for the floor pan which I would be confident in repairing.

[captspillane]

In your last two pictures you'll see the bolt and nut at the front of the leaf spring. That nut is up against a flat piece of metal that forms a box around the nut. The thin metal forming that box is often disintergrated and it is very difficult to repair because of its location. It is something to scrutinize in any Eagle you purchase.

Getting that bolt out can be one of the most difficult jobs you can undertake in an Eagle. It's a nightmare. It took over 12 hours to remove those bolts on my SX4. They looked to be in the exact same condition as this Eagle. When its this rusted it can certainly be repaired, but expect it to demand a great deal of effort and patience.

The bolt rusted itself to the metal sleeve, which refused to spin because it was bonded to the rubber. You can't cut the bolt without the rubber burning up or without damaging the critical sections of steel that make up the bolt eye. I used this setup to pull it off. The C clamp is putting pressure on the bolt while I spin it. I'm able to spin the bolt while still putting clamp pressure on it because I used the adaptor from a steering wheel puller set to go over and around the ratchet head.

[captspillane]

If a rocker panel isn't present on a truck like my C10, the entire cab seperates and the door no longer closes. On an Eagle its really just there to clip on a piece of plastic.

That's not the case.  The rocker panel is structurally integral to the safety of a unibody car as it is part of what keeps the passenger cabin from deforming in an accident.

I've seen many people scrap Eagles because of hysteria. A hole in the rocker panel of an Eagle and moderate subframe rot is not a big deal on an Eagle. It's extremely over-rated. The chore of removing rusty bolts, not safety concerns, is what really makes a rusty Eagle more trouble than its worth. After 12 hours of struggling on a single bolt you'll be very tempted to scrap the car and use the money to buy a Jeep Cherokee. Eagles are considerably more difficult to work on than other vehicles of similar age, value, and capability. They are not a cheap and easy vehicle to own.

The AMC Eagle is literally a 1970 Hornet with new trim and a new crossmember. The 1970 version of unibody is much  different than the 2012 version. The AMC Eagle was considered a very safe vehicle for its day because the solid bumper is bolted to weak links bolted to the body. In 2012 bumpers are plastic covering waffled plastic for crush zone. We're comparing apples and oranges.

What we typically refer to as the "rocker panel" is indeed aesthetic only on an Eagle. In the front the battery tray and inner fender wall is extremely important for structural integrity. It ties directly into a very stiff thick piece of metal running under the inside edge of the doorsill. That is the real rocker panel in an Eagle and it must be intact. The fenders are glorified mud flaps. Eagle fenders are aesthetic payload in the sense that they are big pieces of metal that bolt to the outside of the car's structure. You can drive around perfectly fine and safely with your fenders removed, you'll simply look ridiculous. Likewise a curved piece of metal was added outside of the stiff rigid body member for really no other reason than to look good and to continue the lines of the car from the fenders back. On a Hornet it is a loosely attached piece of trim. On an Eagle it isn't even visible and its just barely strong enough to rivet the trim clip to. That is the curved piece of metal everyone calls "the rocker panel." It gives as much protection and rigidity to the car as the piece of curved plastic attached to it.

In all of my high mileage Eagles here in salted PA the curved trim piece has disintergrated and has multiple holes throughout it. It's normal wear. That curved fake rocker panel's presence, however, has protected the real rocker panel behind it. I simply paint and protect the exposed metal inside and then fill the cavity with foam. I shave the foam and fill it in with waterproof and flexible "fiberglass hair" style body filler. It gets painted and the trim back on.


I have great respect for your husband, Priya. His knowledge and professionalism is obvious in his posts. His reputation and career would be in jeopardy if he allowed a unibody car to pass inspection with rocker panel rot because a vehicle safety inspector carries a degree of liability and an obligation to be professional. His perspective on a customer's vehicle will be different than his own. The question of whether a car is safe to drive is very different than asking if he has a professional obligation to condemn it.

[unpossible]

<--- Trout's wife

Wow Capt. Thanks for the info.

I think trout's more concerned about the new pictures than he let on in his post. Any opinions on them? I think we're a little gun shy after unexpectedly running in to the rust we did on our current project.

[captspillane]

Phil and I are celebrating that his Eagle passed PA safety inspection this week. This is how it passed. He cut off the remains of the curved metal and doctored the edges to make sure they were not sharp and in danger of cutting anyone. The safety inspector agreed with me. He considered the structural metal underneath the real rocker panel and it passed.

[captspillane]

I think trout's more concerned about the new pictures than he let on in his post. Any opinions on them? I think we're a little gun shy after unexpectedly running in to the rust we did on our current project.

That Eagle is not worth your time unless you're very capable, have a huge budget, and a huge garage with lots of money and time to throw at it. The body itself is sound enough to repair but everything will need to be removed. Every last bolt will fight you along the way. You'll realistically spend two or three years of weekends before you get that one restored. My SX4, and Phil's I just posted a picture of, was in exactly the same shape. Mine has been a steady project for me for over a decade and Phil's took him over a year longer than he expected. Your time is better off waiting for a better one to appear for sale.

Look to the nest. Try to take over someone else's project when life calls them away from it.

[unpossible]

That Eagle is not worth your time unless you're very capable, have a huge budget, and a huge garage with lots of money and time to throw at it. The body itself is sound enough to repair but everything will need to be removed. Every last bolt will fight you along the way. You'll realistically spend two or three years of weekends before you get that one restored. My SX4, and Phil's I just posted a picture of, was in exactly the same shape. Mine has been a steady project for me for over a decade and Phil's took him over a year longer than he expected. Your time is better off waiting for a better one to appear for sale.

Look to the nest. Try to take over someone else's project when life calls them away from it.

Dang. Well, thanks for your opinion. If I could egg, I would. I knew the first car that trout started this thread with was toast, but I was hoping this second one would be a good replacement. With the parts we have from the first, we could have gotten this one in very good shape - mechanically at least.

[Baskinator]

You would definitely need to give a thorough sandblasting and multiple coats of paint to the underside of this car. It also appears to need all 3 emergency brake cables replaced, because they have rusted away from the equalizer. If this is the case, Dave is right. You will most likely need to replace just about every component underneath the car from sitting and rusting.

[priya]

I've seen many people scrap Eagles because of hysteria. A hole in the rocker panel of an Eagle and moderate subframe rot is not a big deal on an Eagle.

I never said it was.  There's a difference between saying rust will fail a car on a safety inspection and saying its an insurmountable problem.

What we typically refer to as the "rocker panel" is indeed aesthetic only on an Eagle. In the front the battery tray and inner fender wall is extremely important for structural integrity. It ties directly into a very stiff thick piece of metal running under the inside edge of the doorsill. That is the real rocker panel in an Eagle and it must be intact... Likewise a curved piece of metal was added outside of the stiff rigid body member for really no other reason than to look good and to continue the lines of the car from the fenders back. On a Hornet it is a loosely attached piece of trim. On an Eagle it isn't even visible and its just barely strong enough to rivet the trim clip to. That is the curved piece of metal everyone calls "the rocker panel." It gives as much protection and rigidity to the car as the piece of curved plastic attached to it.

All sheet metal on a unibody car is structural, even the bolted on front fenders add some rigidity and energy absorption.  In fact the inner and outer rocker panels are the same gauge of metal,  one is not strong and the other "flimsy" - I know, I've removed and replaced both.  I guarantee you that the outer rocker panel on a hornet is not a "loosely attached piece of trim", it is sheet metal of the same gauge as the rest of the body and spot welded in place in the same way.  That the outer rocker is not visible on an eagle does not diminish its structural necessity.  I know some people doing safety inspections are willing to overlook problems that strictly speaking must fail a vehicle, just because you find such a person doesn't mean they're doing the safety inspection as required by law per engineering data, they're just more sympathetic to poor people wanting to get a needed car on the road without spending more than they can afford.

I have great respect for your husband, Priya. His knowledge and professionalism is obvious in his posts. His reputation and career would be in jeopardy if he allowed a unibody car to pass inspection with rocker panel rot because a vehicle safety inspector carries a degree of liability and an obligation to be professional. His perspective on a customer's vehicle will be different than his own. The question of whether a car is safe to drive is very different than asking if he has a professional obligation to condemn it.

What is safe is all relative.  I myself have driven many extremely rusty unibody vehicles although it did make me a little nervous when I thought about the possibility of an accident.  Whether or not a person feels safe in a unibody car with moderate rust is a judgement the driver needs to make, certainly a car does not go from safe to unsafe with the first appearance of a small rust hole, the safety diminishes proportionally to the amount of rust.

[trout]

thanks for the additional responses.

unfortunately the 2nd one I posted is one of the better ones I've seen in this area.
we'll keep looking. thank you.