So I have a guy that will replace my motor with a brand new engine that comes with a 70/10 warranty and rebuild the tranny/transfer case/clutch for around 2k.
Originally I was just going to instal the mopar mpfi kit but the kit being $1200, I thought I should have the engine gone through when this deal was offered to me.
My question is, should I get a new 258 4.2 and install the mpfi with the 4.0 upgrade or is there a newer 4.0 that already has fuel injection that will install right in instead? I'm really trying to get as much power and reliability as possible out of my sx4.
There's nothing wrong with any of my drivetrain, it sat outside for days in below freezing temps and fired right up. I just figured that if I was going to upgrade it I'd go all the way. I can't wait to have a 30yr old brand new car.
4.0l were always fuel injected. all should be a direct bolt in for the 258. some people have noted that the axle mounts may not be threaded. the holes are there its just a matter of tapping them. thr 4.0l's i have seen and built were threaded.
Ok, as I understand it, people take a 258 4.2 and convert it to a 4.0 to get better all around performance, but an engine that's already a 4.0 would be the same or better then an upgrade?
A 4.0 is much better than a 4.2 because of the head design. A stock 4.2 was rated at 115 HP and a stock 4.0 was rated at 190 HP. A 4.0 will always start considerably more readily and will get the same or better gas mileage but put out much more power. The other huge advantage is the increased pressure in the fuel rail makes the fuel atomize much better than a low pressure carb jet, but that's just an advantage to TBI and MPI over a carb. You can put an MPI intake on an otherwise stock 4.2 and you'll have an engine with about 160 HP because of the poor head design.
Even better than a 4.0 is a 4.2 short block with a 4.0 head. This gives you longer stroke, slightly smaller pistons, and a slightly bigger overrall displacement. The difference is barely noticeable, but that does translate to as much power as a stock 4.0 but even more torque. By overboring the 4.2 short block during the rebuild you'll have a 4.5L engine.
A Jeep Stroker typically refers to a 4.0L short block with a 4.2L crank, which creates compression issues unless you shave the piston, but benefits from the larger piston size of the 4.0. Keeping the original 4.0 bore size also gives you 4.5L displacement, and overboring it gives you 4.7L or 4.9L displacement.
I prefer the 4.5L made from a 4.2 short block over the 4.5L stroker because you retain the possibility of using the mechanical fuel pump and a carb. The 4.0 eliminates the hole in the casting for the fuel pump.
I'm a fan of the 4.2 block w/ 4.0 head myself. I prefer to keep things simple w/ the 2150 carburetor/manual fuel pump. Save the $1200+ from the injection and add the 2150, HEI distributor, stainless steel headers and still have close to $550 in change left over for other uses.
So I guess if you had to choose between upgrading a 4.2 to a mpfi 4.0 or just buying and installing a 4.0, then the smart money would be on just installing a new 4.0?
Would I be right by saying that it is less involved/cheaper, keep in mind I'm no mechanic and will be paying someone to do this, to have a new 4.0 installed?
Is the 4.0 still 258ci?
No, the 4.0 is 242 cubic inches instead of 258 cubic inches. It has larger pistons but a considerably shorter stroke, causing the 0.2L decrease in displacement.
If you have the choice between a 4.2L and a 4.0L crate engine, the 4.0L long block will be slightly better because it will already come with the better head. The best solution is to order the 4.2L short block, without the head, or rebuild your old short block. Then buy a 4.0 head. Your mechanic won't blink an eye at bolting a head onto a short block to make an ideal long block.
Ok but don't you also need to change more then just the heads if I went the 4.2 route? And won't a crate motor either come with the fuel injection intake or at least be much cheaper to acquire?
The other difference is that the camshaft has much larger lobes on the stock 4.0 than the stock 4.2. That's a huge difference I forgot earlier. The much larger lobes on the camshaft are needed to actually get all of the available power from the block. The 4.0 also has longer lifters for a slightly larger oil pump volume. Its a negligible advantage and you can just use your 4.2L lifters and pushrods without worry. The 4.2L has shorter lifters and longer pushrods to equal the 4.0L longer lifters and shorter pushrods. Do not use 4.0 pushrods with 4.2 lifters!
Ideally you should put new rings and bearings in your 4.2L short block, a new "RV" crane cam for low RPM power with the MPI, 4.0 lifters and pushrods, and a 4.0 head from a 1992 Jeep Cherokee (best casting). If you don't want to pay for extra work inside the engine, the 4.0L long block is the best off the shelf option with the proper camshaft and head to get the full potential from the MPI kit.
Its true that the 2150 conversion is much cheaper for simpler and almost as good, which is perfect for most Eagle owners, but some of us will never be pleased with less than the best. There is no equal to the MPI in peformance.
What is the 2150 referring to?
So it sounds like, and it's what I'm thinking, that a 242 4.0 crate is the best "for the money" option? How would the ecu respond to putting the 242 4.0 with fuel injection in?
My Eagle is a 1981 5-speed and shift on the fly conversion. You have a 6-speed? How fast is that??
The 2150 is a common motorcraft carb found on 1988 Ford trucks and such. It doesn't restrict the airflow and doesn't have the reliability issues that the original one does. Gronk has a very cost effective kit for sale for converting to the 2150. Most Eagle owners go this route because they do not want to pull their engine or spend much time or money.
The 2006 NSG370 6 speed has different set of shift points, but its not any faster or slower because of the transmission. It benefits from a very low first gear and approximately the same overdrive (I match it to 3.07 gears instead of the perfect 3.54 gears for a T5, and the end product makes 6th feel exactly like the T5 5th). Second gear is very close to first on the T5, so I think of it as a built in middle range. I'm using a NP242 transfer case. I like those much better than the available viscous coupling transfer cases.
Intake manifolds do not come with a long block.
ECU? You will need the entire wiring harness to go with the intake manifold. If you want someone else to install it for you, you're best sticking with the Hesco wiring harness. Its already modified for easy installation, but its considerably more expensive than a used harness. You'll also need their crank sensor on the harmonic dampener kit and their fuel pump.
Captspillane, We need to meet sometime and throw down some beers and turn some wrenches......
My suggestion getting back on to original topis is to spens some time poking through the forum. EVERYTHING you need to know has been posted in great detail many tomes over. There is more information on this site than in any book you could ever buy.
Quote from: GRONK on February 06, 2012, 10:30:46 AM
Captspillane, We need to meet sometime and throw down some beers and turn some wrenches......
My suggestion getting back on to original topis is to spens some time poking through the forum. EVERYTHING you need to know has been posted in great detail many tomes over. There is more information on this site than in any book you could ever buy.
I absolutely agree with you, this site and eaglepedia are amazing, but I'm a carpenter not a mechanic. I can change parts, diagnose, and trouble shoot but more than half of the lingo and references I just don't understand. I've never done anything as complicated as what I'm going to do and just need very specific questions answered. Again, I'm hiring an actual mechanic to do the work but on one hand I don't want to get 5k deep into a project that I only saved 2.5k for and on the other hand I don't want to get fleeced at the shop.
OK masterminds ( with all due respect ). My answer to his question , which is a basic question if I am reading it correctly is - he is not taotally mechanically inclined , has to rely on a mechanic , wants reliabilty and simplicity, but some gains in knowledge which he is aquireing by yours and everyones experience and knowledge in comments.
:)that was long winded but covers my butt,lol.
I would think for him a simple complete 4.0 conversion replacement swap would be the ticket.
I personaly am intriuged by all the options, but on the other hand am allways sitting on the fence as what to do.Point in fact - I have 3 Eagles and a complete 4.0 engine sitting seperate, and still haven't made a choice or tackled the projects. One is Tougeagles Caroiline Conversion car , wich is a great resource , but needs #6 cylinder work.A running 82 SX/4 aka The Money Pit , and an 84 wagon.Let alone my 68 AMX.If I had the cash I would just let someone else tackle it like he is thinking, and just want to drive it.
Yes per say it takes alot of the fun out of the build, and also distances you from knowing what you actually have under the hood and it's technicality , but for some, a simple solution and a quick turnaround to have a reliable and driveable end result is all they are looking for.As said just my opinion. Good luck no matter what.
Hey thanks.
Ya that's pretty much it.
However IF I had the room, I live in an apartment, I might pull it out and weekend warrior that sob and finally know what goes where on the interior of an engine. But I don't, but I do have the foresight to know my own limitations :) and still do what it takes to get it done.
I think after all the good info I got today I'll go with the 258 4.2 crate engine and mpfi kit for now. All the outer components are basically new and will be reused and when it's done I'll basically have a new drivetrain. Then later on, hopefully not to later, I'll upgrade the 258 to a 4.0. I think stepping the cost in this way will be the best thing for both my eagle and me;)
The first step is to get it modern/reliable and the second step will be modification.
I second that Gronk. I'm planning a roadtrip to make that happen once my first and foremost red SX4 is back together. It's always a pleasure to meet those who appreciate this site and our amazing Eagles.
I also agree fully that this site it the foremost place to find information. Its all there if you spend some time clicking and reading. I haven't encountered any other forum as friendly or useful.
As far as the best turn key solution, its a 4.0 long block with a Hesco MPI kit. That will cost you 2K for the long block and 2.5K for the complete ready-to-bolt together Hesco kit. If you're willing to do a little research, a competent mechanic would be willing to replace rings and bearings and install a new head, camshaft, and lifters for about 1K. There is potential to save alot of money besides capturing more performance for just a little bit of knowledge. The Hesco kit can be purchased from a mixture of new and used parts for about 1K if you're willing to spend some time doing research yourself. That brings you to about 2K total along with the cost of new clutch and other work done at the same time, versus about 5K for the off the shelf solution.
If I was to predict, I would say that you will end up buying a 4.0 long block, installing it, and then getting Gronk's 2150 kit along with an electric low pressure pump. You will then have everything running very well with the option of saving up for the Hesco kit at a later date if you really want that modernized pride. Alternatively you can bolt all your original 4.2 manifolds and accesories to the 4.0 block and drive it that way for a long time. That's the decision of most people once it comes time to pull the trigger.
You should not buy a 4.2 long block. A 4.2 short block is about 800 dollars cheaper, and a new head, camshaft, and head gasket can be bolted in place for less than that. Get a 4.0 if you're going to get a long block, even if you have to keep your old intake, Vbelt, exhaust, and such for awhile. The only thing you'll lose is a 40 dollar electric fuel pump, and you'll gain the head, camshaft, and lifters that you'll need for the MPI.
I personally expect my girlfriend and even my mother to drive my Eagles with comfort, and they are less forgiving than I am. They expect a smooth and flawless experience up to par with any modern car. The worst part is that they are also much more cynical and skeptical that my car's are even roadworthy because of their age, so it takes a clean modernized and expensive sounding drivetrain to gain their trust and affection. An Eagle has that potential for much less than the cost of a new car.
We missed an important question to ask: are you going to keep the Vbelts or go with the 4.0 serpantine belt? I absolutley love the serpentine belt because it installs easier, lasts longer, and never slips or screeches. They are highly superior.
If you keep the V belts with an MPI fuel injection manifold there is one bolt hole that needs a slice with a grinder on the power steering pump. You also need a Hesco temp sensor adaptor that puts a brass fitting inline with the water pump inside the flexible hose because the V belt upper pulley blocks the hole for the temp sensor. Either exhaust manifold works, but you are best buying a new stainless steel 4.0 manifold off the evil bay. It costs just 90 dollars and its much less restriction without the cracking problems of the original used 4.2 or 4.0 manifolds. The biggest advantage to V belts is that you can continue to use the original AC pump.
If you go serpantine belt, you will need to go to a junkyard and get the brackets, AC pump, and power steering pump from a Cherokee. Even if you don't have AC its very hard to find a non-AC donor car and you're best just using it as an idle pulley or an onboard air compressor. Specifically you need a bracket from a 1995 and up Cherokee if you use a 4.2 short block because those have a slightly different alternator bracket. If you use a 4.0 long block you can use the 1992-era alternator bracket which also uses an older AC pump that will accept the original Eagle AC lines.
This is a decision you have to make before you buy your Hesco dampener, since there is one with Vbelt and a different one for Serpantine. You won't need that 350 dollar kit if you use a newer transmission like a NSG30, NV3550, or AX15. My 6 speed cost 600 dollars off Clist with literally 200 miles on it, and it saved me the cost of the Hesco kit.
Quote from: captspillane on February 06, 2012, 11:23:50 AM
I also agree fully that this site it the foremost place to find information. Its all there if you spend some time clicking and reading. I haven't encountered any other forum as friendly or useful.
Agreed
I found an mpi kit for $1200 and if all the accessory components bolt right on then that does sound like the better option.
Quote from: captspillane on February 06, 2012, 08:53:33 AM
Even better than a 4.0 is a 4.2 short block with a 4.0 head. This gives you longer stroke, slightly smaller pistons, and a slightly bigger overrall displacement. The difference is barely noticeable, but that does translate to as much power as a stock 4.0 but even more torque. By overboring the 4.2 short block during the rebuild you'll have a 4.5L engine.
A Jeep Stroker typically refers to a 4.0L short block with a 4.2L crank, which creates compression issues unless you shave the piston, but benefits from the larger piston size of the 4.0. Keeping the original 4.0 bore size also gives you 4.5L displacement, and overboring it gives you 4.7L or 4.9L displacement.
How does the head affect stroke. It doesn't.
Never had to shave my pistons on my stroker.
Quote from: mudkicker715 on February 06, 2012, 12:01:25 PM
Quote from: captspillane on February 06, 2012, 08:53:33 AM
Even better than a 4.0 is a 4.2 short block with a 4.0 head. This gives you longer stroke, slightly smaller pistons, and a slightly bigger overrall displacement.
How does the head affect stroke. It doesn't.
Never had to shave my pistons on my stroker.
You'll need to shave pistons if you want to use regular gas instead of premium without it pinging. The compression ratio is too high if you don't. Of course you might not care and might have worn rings to help lower the compression ratio.
The 4.2L short block has smaller pistons and a longer stroke than the 4.0L short block. The sentence makes perfect sense as it was written because its an obvious comparison between a 4.0 and 4.2, head and cam otherwise equal. Starting with a 4.2L short block (with 4.0 camshaft), bolting a 4.0 head on it and then comparing it to a 4.0 long block makes it slightly more powerful and with slightly more torque because of the difference in crankshaft. A 4.2 long block without the camshaft and head will work well with an MPI kit but just won't be as quite as good as if you had a 4.0 block, since the 4.0 already has both these. More torque and power comes from the head and camshaft than the slight difference in crankshaft.
A 4.2 with carter carb is junk. A 4.2 with 2150 carb is good. A 4.0 with 2150 carb is just as good. 4.2 long block with original camshaft and head but with MPI is great. 4.0 long block with mpi is better. 4.2 short block with 4.0 head and MPI is even better. 4.0 long block with 4.2 crank is better still. A 401 V8 is best.
The easiest route to go for the best performance for the money you'll be spending is to get your stock engine rebuilt at a good machine shop, and have them install a mild performance cam. You can keep everything stock, and you'll have your "new" car with a minor performance enhancement from the cam. Maybe install an aftermarket aluminum valvecover, and upgrade to the MC 2100 carburetor, and do the TFI ignition upgrade. Then your car is mildly better than stock, but nowhere near as involved as the other swapping possibilities. You can even do the HESCO kit later, and swap in the 4.o HO head later(recommend CCH head, since its properly and professionally modified specifically for this swap). The key with staying with the stock 4.2 engine is to get a performance cam installed while the engine is out of the car - that's the main thing I'd recommend if you stick with the 4.2L. All other upgrades can be done with the engine in the car.
If you were to go with a 4.o HO long block, then your stock intake and exhaust manifolds will not line up with the ports on the 4.o head. It will necessitate either immediately going with the HESCO MPI kit or doing some modifications to the stock intake manifold, and there is no way the stock exhaust manifold will work, so you'll have to use the exhaust manifolds available for the 4.o(Renix non-HO or HO - 2 choices available). Neither of the 4.o exhausts will go in easily - both require modification of either the front axle bracket or the exhaust manifold itself(cutting/welding).
Regular gas works fine in my stroker. motor was taken in to a shop to get machined. rings are new
A head does not give stroke as you said
Quote from: txjeeptx on February 06, 2012, 12:35:01 PM
The key with staying with the stock 4.2 engine is to get a performance cam installed while the engine is out of the car - that's the main thing I'd recommend if you stick with the 4.2L. All other upgrades can be done with the engine in the car.
This is exactly why you should never buy a 4.2 long block. You need to remove the head to replace the camshaft, so you should only ever buy a 4.2 short block and a 4.0 head seperately. Both seperate cost less than a long block and you won't have to worry about converting the head later. A 4.0 long block already has a performance camshaft and the better head if you want to buy it ready to go.
The 4.0 head versus the 4.2 head is said to be a 30 to 40 HP difference. The camshaft accounts for 40 to 50 HP. Its exactly true that the cam is the single biggest difference and a new engine should not be installed without one.
I recommend Crane's RV cam if you like to drive below 3K RPM. Realize however, that the stock 4.0 camshaft is already a mild performance camshaft. If you set a 4.2 cam, 4.0 cam, and the crane cam down next to each other the difference in lobes is huge between the 4.2 and 4.0, but there is no noticeable difference between the Crane and 4.0 camshaft. The whole reason that AMC took a 115 HP motor and made it get 190 HP with less displacement is that they figured out how to make a mild performance camshaft on their own.
Agreed, that you really don't want to buy a 4.2L long block, since you'd have to split it open to replace the cam, which is a must-do thing while the engine is not in the car, and its a do-it-now type thing, too. Rebuilding the 4.2 from your car is the best way to go, with a small increase in turn-around time, since it will have to be sent out to a machine shop. The mechanic can spend that time rebuilding the transmission, unless he planned on farming that job out, too.
So we've reached a concensus: If you have to buy a long block, the 4.o long block is the best way to go since it already has all the upgraded goodies like better cam(still not the best performace cam it could have, though) and head. The problems then will be in bolting up the manifolds and having to use an electric fuel pump, whether you go with injection or carb.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do. In the end, whatever you choose will probably prove to be very satisfying when its done.
I'll assume you mean the 8 /14 and not the weak 7 1/4.
The 242 tcase will give you full time 4x4 for any condition like the NP119.
did you get a description of the MPI kit that you found for 1200? If it includes a Hesco crank sensor kit you need to know if its a serpantine or Vbelt dampener. You'll need to know if it has the 4.0 thermostat housing or the Hesco water temp sensor conversion adaptor. If it isn't complete with fuel pump, sensor kit, and speedo adaptor than its not worth that much. If its just a box full of stuff pulled from a junkyard you'll have alot of work and cost left before your car is done.
In a sense you are buying a new head and camshaft that you don't want and don't need if you get the whole 4.2L long block. TxJeeptx just did a great job at summing up the consensus there. A short block is readily available for 1200 dollars, versus 2000 for a long block. Your old long block can be rebuilt for less than that but not by much. Clearwater Conversion Heads (water jackets welded shut before the head was decked) cost 500 dollars. A new Crane camshaft without lifters about 150 dollars.
You'll also get a much nicer timing chain set and timing cover with the 4.0 long block. If you have to pay for a new set during a rebuild, get the 4.0 version because the whole gear is metal. The timing cover has an anti-slap bumper in it that most 258's do not have, although its thicker in one corner than the 4.2L timing cover. I have a 4.0 timing cover on a V-belt 258 without AC, but that thicker hole might be a problem with some of the other possible accessory combinations. Some 258's had a metal spacer against the timing cover and the 4.0L incorporated that spacer into the casting.
"If you were to go with a 4.o HO long block, then your stock intake and exhaust manifolds will not line up with the ports on the 4.o head."
That's not true, you can use the original 4.2L intake and exhaust with a 4.0L block. I've seen it done but will have to go take pictures in my garage today for complete confidence in that as a fact. When comparing the 4.2L and 4.0L heads the intake is just pushed up higher instead of inline with the exhaust ports. The pattern itself is the same. Its a little weird because the intake and exhaust will no longer line up side to side like they used to which effects the washers on the bolts that clamp down on both manifolds. I consider it the same as reading that an MPI intake won't install with a 4.2L exhaust manifold, which my CJ8 has. Usually people combine a carb intake with a 4.0 exhaust manifold, but my Scrambler has a 4.0 MPI intake combined with a cast exhaust manifold. It was a single slice with a grinder to the very top of the power steering pump bracket to make a definite no become a definite yes.
I also do not consider the exhaust manifold a difficult installation because its a little shaving with a grinder to the edge of the axle hangar to make it work. The only reason its a weld on installation is because you need the new downpipe welded to your old exhaust, either of which a competent mechanic would not blink an eye at. Even if you end up with a carb initially, its still worthwhile to get the exhaust manifold switched over now. I love my new stainless evil bay version, brand new for 88 dollars.
You should never get an NP231. The NP242 has the same slip yoke and same part time 4wd, with the benefit of a working all wheel drive "part time 4WD." Its perfect for an Eagle. The low range makes a huge difference and its worth the change to your driveshaft. It also has a nifty internal oil pump. You can see my driveshaft solution in the latest posting on my project thread "Perkiomen Project Pics."
Confused yet olymunch ?? :-\ lol, I am , but it's a good group of technical advice to print out and re-read and keep for reference.I can't keep it all straight just popping in here to read when new post adds on.
Hahahaha :hello2:
Ya It's definitely a lot but I'm grateful for it! Seems like every answer brings two questions, but that's ok;)
So do you all think that getting a 4.0 engine, installing a better cam, getting the mpi done, and getting the new exhaust manifold(eventually I'd like to do dual setup) is the fastest, probably cheapest option with the least amount labor?
Keeping in mind all the extras I'd have to do if I stayed with the 4.2, installing the mpi either way, and assuming that all the components bolt over to the 4.0 with the exception of the exhaust?
Right now I have a 1981 eagle with shift on the fly, it handled GREAT in the snow up here in Seattle so I think I'll keep that the way it is. I haven't even thought about new gears in the rear and really have no idea what I have. I can squeak the tires in first no problem and I can squeak em going from first to second easy. Although there does seem to be some wheel hop in the rear in the lower gears if I don't shift just right when it's in 2wd.
Initially I just want it to be a great road warrior and I'll take it off-road, trails, and hill climbing occasionally. When I upgrade to a solid front then I'll put in a new tc but still will prob want something that can operate in 4high on dry pavement with an air locker option.
Oh and going thru my bookmarks I'm seeing a mpi kit from koller dodge for $1600 tho I'm sure I found one for $1200 but can't find it now. I haven't contacted them regarding the kit but will look into it to see what it comes with. I know that the harmonic ballancer is extra.
Quote from: olymunch on February 06, 2012, 06:56:47 PM
Oh and going thru my bookmarks I'm seeing a mpi kit from koller dodge for $1600 tho I'm sure I found one for $1200 but can't find it now. I haven't contacted them regarding the kit but will look into it to see what it comes with. I know that the harmonic ballancer is extra.
That kit sounds rather incomplete. You will likely need much more to actually get your Eagle back on the road. You should go to the Hesco website and directly compare their prices to the Dodge kit. Hesco also has very good write ups that you can download to install their products. If you have only saved up that amount of money for the MPI conversion, you'll likely have to start looking at a Howel TBI kit or Gronk's 2150.
The Howel TBI kit is about 1200 dollars and it runs nearly as well as the MPI. Its a neglible difference. The biggest advantage is that you don't need a crank sensor. A crank sensor tells the computer where the flywheel is in order to know which cylinder to shoot gas into. The throttle body injection computer doesn't need this information because it is injecting a steady stream of gas and air for all the cylinders at once.
I'm not sure if I can post a direct link on this site, but if you google "Howell TBI" their website is the first return. Likewise "Hesco MPI" is the first return for their website.
Ok it looks like koller is no longer in business, I'll check out hesco, I'm def more into the mpi over tbi.
It looks like there's two kits, one is a mopar mpi kit for almost 2.5k and the other is a jeep DFI MPI kit for about 2k.
I can't find any real difference, is there?
The DFI kit is for newer cars like TJ owners who want to replace damaged parts with aftermarket parts. It has software that makes it more flexible and able to work on any year engine. You should stick with their usual kit because its designed for people like us starting with an older engine. The only factor I can think of that you need to know before ordering their stuff is Vbelt versus serpantine belt.
I would always select the manual transmission kit to keep the "park" safety feature deactivated, then buy the automatic cable seperate if you have an automatic. You are keeping your T5 five speed, correct?
Keep in mind that the complete kit includes a brand new never used intake manifold. Even if you want the simplicity of their wiring harness and if you use most of their kit, you should at least buy a used intake manifold. I think Baskinator will be swapping his out for a grand cost of about 800 dollars in used and new parts. Its up to you how much effort you want to put forth into saving the two grand for Hesco's off the shelf solution. We can help you as much as you need.
Ok but if I go with the 4.0 engine woldnt the cheaper mpi upgrade be what I want?
The DFI kit comes with software and other complexity. I think the difference in price is because it doesn't come with all the stuff that the regular kit does. That would make sense if its intended for a newer Jeep that already had a fuel injection installed. I think it will cost more and be more complex in the end. That's the conclusion I reached by reading the Hesco descriptions.
Ya that makes sense, I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
Decisions decisions. I need to talk to my mechanic to see what he's most capable at, if he'd upgrade the 4.2 to a 4.0 with a better cam for a decent price then I'll do that. Maybe he'll have some experience with the mpi swap on the cheap? if not then its the 2.5k swap or I can piece it together at junk yards. I KNOW there's tons of info about that on here. If anyone knows specifically tho where that "piece it together" list is that'd be great!
This has been VERY educational!
I disagree. I'm not a mechanic either. I am a carpenter's son who started off working on my AMC Eagle when I was 15. I had no place to work, no tools, no knowledgeable mentor, and didn't even know why my SX4 had three pedals. I've never had any degree of formal training. I know as much as I do because I scrutinize the available information. In his place I would print out this discussion and read it several times with a high-ligher if necessary. Your home depot experience is much more overwhelming than this, because the beauty of a forum is that you can read a paragraph a dozen times over while typing terms into wikipedia. I do not agree that we said too much to him and I do not agree that any post was too complex for someone of any age or background to understand. I would personally appreciate as much information as possible before I spent 2500 dollars. I also firmly believe that ignorance and frustration is the reason so many Eagles end up in the scrapyard.
He clearly stated that he has a well running Eagle that he wants to make more capable. If he was really over his head, he would stick with the tried and true. He also saw "2150," didn't recognize it, and asked what it was. That means that he was ignorant of a considerably cheaper option than the MPI. To know what you don't know is a very powerful thing.
I didn't see this mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out there.
I get you want a new engine....Check.
You'd rather fuel injection for tinker free operation....check.
Why not pick up a a 91-95 jeep cherokee for the the f/i system? You can pick up a rotter for little more than scrap price, as long as it runs well, pull the firewall harness, and body harness, and transplant it all into your eagle, you will then have all the 4.0 accessories too, IE: generator, starter, steering pump, pulleys, ect, ect, ect. Is it a bit of work? Yeah, but you'll have almost everything (minus the crank sensor notch in your bellhousing) to do the swap (You could solve that by either putting it there, or using a hesco type). When you are all said and done, scrap the cherokee and make some of your money back.
My plan exactly, I picked up a 92 Cherokee with a manual trans last weekend. The odometer reads 400+ K, yes that's right 400+ but was told that the engine had been rebuild & the compressions are all 135 +-2 or so, and it starts right up, so I believe it's true. The trans may be another matter, but we'll see... it needs a balancer as that was why it was sold cheap, but everything else is there. Not trying to thread-jack, just validating that as an option.
Doc
The coolest thing about swapping over an entire XJ drivetrain is that you can tell your mechanic "its a 1992 Jeep Cherokee." They are very familiar with those. Alot of mechanics won't work on a car once it becomes too unique and a mixture of too many different Jeep parts. Buying a 4.0 long block, a few junkyard parts for the serpantine belt, and Hesco's kit will still make a 1992 motor that they will recognize.
The speedometer adaptor you need costs 122 dollars at the Hesco site. It costs about 30 dollars everywhere else. I'm using a 1991 YJ adaptor. Those had a 4.0 and a mechanical speedo.
I'm trying to not get too technical without leaving out info this guy or his mechanic should have.
Quote from: captspillane on February 07, 2012, 10:44:30 AMThe speedometer adaptor you need costs 122 dollars at the Hesco site. It costs about 30 dollars everywhere else. I'm using a 1991 YJ adaptor. Those had a 4.0 and a mechanical speedo.
Yeah, there are
definitely a couple of items that the "full-price complete HESCO kit" has in it that you could get elsewhere cheaper. I bought my MPI kit directly from HESCO without the intake manifold. I probably should have had them also remove the speed sensor and the fuel lines that come with the kit. I also could have just used a Jeep CPS, since I'm using an external slave AX-15 Jeep bellhousing and correct Jeep 4.o flywheel for my particular drivetrain swap. I didn't feel like peeling the CPS sensor wiring out of the HESCO harness location to return it to the stock Jeep location on the bellhousing, so I went with the HESCO crank sensor pulley, which needed a spacer to allow me to install it onto the nose of my 4.2 crank. HESCO now offers this spacer, but I turned one for mine on my lathe.
Our Eagles have the fuel line leading to the fuel pump located on the passenger side of the car, so the HESCO fuel line kit, which is designed for Jeep CJ/YJ, is worthless on my Eagle. I have had to bend a new fuel line that crosses over under the engine above the front crossmember and use some corner-parts-store fuel rail disconnects. I'm not finished with the new fuel line, since I need to make a tubing bead tool or find someone who has one, since stainless tubing doesn't flare with the usual tubing flare kit available. Its too hard. For the return line, theirs runs way past where it needs to go to connect to the stock Eagle fuel return, so neither line from the HESCO kit seems necessary for an Eagle. Coulda saved some money there and bought the tubing bead tool, which is around $130. I'm making my own tool, now.
Back on topic, I figure you might appreciate a pic of the engine bay on my unfinished Eagle project with the HESCO MPI stuff installed. (http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa217/txjeeptx/BluSX4trans_job003.jpg)
For all you gearheads, the ridicuLIST of parts I threw together : My block is the original 4.2L, bored 0.020 over, with a forgotten brand/spec of performance cam for the 4.o, a 4.o head from Clearwater Cylinder Heads(just their standard head, they now offer a performance upgrade with larger stainless valves), and I ported and polished the head myself, intake and exhaust are port-matched. The cam and lifters are for a 4.o-application, but I recall having to measure for custom pushrods, since I installed a set of Yellaterra roller rockers, and the valvespring seats were machined for bigger springs, er somethin like that(built over 3 years ago and still haven't gotten it back together to run, so I've forgotten some stuff). The intake is a '99 and up Jeep 4.o "equal length runner" manifold with FAST(not Accel, like I had listed earlier) 21lb/hr injectors, a 60mm throttle body, and HESCO's adjustable fuel pressure regulator, while the exhaust is a used/repaired/modified Renix non-HO 4.o log-style manifold with the EGR port removed and the exit turned away from interfering with the front axle and its associated brackets. The fuel rail is for a '95 4.o, since the one that came with the '99 intake didn't have a fuel return line, and I didn't buy HESCO's returnless fuel pump setup. Since I decided to use the '99 intake, I went with a mid-'90s 4.o serpentine setup medley, starting with a Be-Cool XJ water pump, XJ power steering pump, XJ AC pump and brackets from a 4-cylinder XJ to eliminate the extra idler that the XJ 4.o brackets have, and a Nippondenso/Chrysler non-internally-regulated alternator. I could have added the wiring to the HESCO/MOPAR computer to control the alternator, but found it much easier to just use a mid 70's Dodge voltage regulator to control it. In order to use the mid-90s XJ serpentine setup, I had to use the correct Chrysler-Jeep timing cover, not my stock 4.2's cover, since the bracket would have required spacers. I also had to drill out the threads in a couple of bolt hole locations in the AMC 4.2 block to allow bolts for the Chrysler setup to pass through where AMC had bolts thread to the block. You cannot mix AMC serpentine accessories woth MOPAR/Chrysler serpentine accessores - the pulleys are offset differently between each setup(I planned originally on using the accessories from an '86 AMC 2.5L XJ serpentine setup, but you can't mix n match AMC with Chryco serpentine). I plan on using a mid 90's Ford Taurus SHO dual-fan electric setup on the radiator. The starter is for a 4.o HO XJ/TJ with the external slave bellhousing. - that about sums up the engine build. I shoulda built a stroker!
I just recently got around to mounting the fuel pump near the tank, and have a few things to finish up on the fuel lines, and need to fabricate a exhaust to allow me to finally get this thing started. I'm glad I emptied the fuel tank and Sta-Bil-fogged it, and also fogged the engine, and capped eveything for its two-year timeout. I'll have to pull the distributor to prime the engine before I can crank it, and my warranties on everything from my engine to my transmission have long-since expired. I never should have let it sit so long, but, what the hey.
Looks great !! and a good write up of what's happening. I like the spot you found for that giant electronics box.
That also answers my pondering on wether that box goes along with everything I have in a pile that came from Smitty with the Money Pit.
Ya there's definitely a lot I don't know, what's a lifter?, but I google a lot. And it's true there is a lot of info on this site but having a conversation is helpful. When you observe two people who know what they are talking about it's easy to get lost in the lingo. Bell housing sensor what? But actually your both right. "A person who knows everything can't be taught anything." And that's exactly where I'm at, I have no problem asking the "dumb" questions but try to google as much as I can before I ask.
That's a good point tho, if I could just find a newer jeep with everything I need already in then I'd do that. And even upgrade the cam.
I just found a 99 and 2000 jeep Cherokee with a 4.0 with the engine for sale for $850. Because its low miles, 54k I think, and cheap because it's wrecked that it would come with all the accessories/wiring harness, it's an automatic 4x4, would this work as a bolt in? I wanna keep my T5.
Is there anywhere that would tell me what year make and model of jeep swap directly in to my eagle and bolt up to the T5? Obviously only newer wih mpi already on. Itd be nice to have a brand new engine with a 70/10 warranty but if I can get close then that would be great to. It's all about balance, price, reliability, time, power. If I can find a jeep, like you said, and just go grab the engine out of it, I'd even be willing to throw it on a dyno, ~$300, just for the piece of mind. The more options the better. I use an app on my phone to search all of the "list" at once.
I can always grab an engine and throw it the bed of my f150 and take it over to my mechanic after I get it dyno'd.
Just my .02 but if you are going to inject it from the outset why put a crate 258 instead of a crate 4.0 or alternately a good low mileage 4.0 long block(for lots less money). The difference in work would be minimal... Exhaust downpipe would need rework, intake manifold is part of the MPFI so no difference(I know it's a different manifold, but they are a dime a dozen, heck if he needs it I have a couple extra that I'd send one of for the cost of shipping), 4.0 has no provision for manual fuel pump, but again with the MPFI kit you wouldn't be using it. Other than those I'd expect it to be mostly a bolt in proposition.
Again my .02 only
Personally I'm working on the cheap side, and bought a beater XJ with a rebuilt motor that I can drop in, it won't be quite as quick of an install as I will need to open the wiring harness and strip out the extraneous wires & connections for lights etc. Otherwise it's the same thing as installing any I6 and adding MPFI kit using factory hard parts like manifolds, throttle body, etc.
H
If I could choose I'd do the 4.0 mpi with performance cam but there's much to consider.
For instance:
1-I stay with the original 4.2, keeping in mind it runs fine, and just do the mpi upgrade
2-I get the crate 4.2 and do the mpi upgrade and performance cam
3-I get the crate 4.2 and do the mpi upgrade and 4.0 upgrade with performance cam
4-I get a crate 4.0, still have to buy the mpi plus a wiring harness, some other parts, modify the exhaust grind the alternator(according to eaglepedia), and add a performance cam.
5-I get a 4.0 from a newer jeep with low miles, dyno the motor, add performance cam
As far as:
1-if I'm going to add a 2k kit I wanna make SURE it's worth it, so I'd want it rebuilt and while it's out upgrade the cam. To be honest I think it would actually be cheaper to just get a crate motor, keeping in mind it'd come with a 70/10 warranty and I'm going to all the trouble anyway. Not tryna do 1
2-I think this would be the cheapest option for just ensuring reliability with mild performance upgrades. If I went this route I'd still want to eventually upgrade to a 4.0 for more performance. Might do this
3/4-This was originally what I was thinking about, basically, which one would be cheaper? Because it sounds like there's no difference in performance or reliability? I'd like to do this option depending on the price but really, it seems like a crate 4.2 upgraded to 4.0 needs less parts and would be faster/easier. Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like there aren't any real bennefits to getting a crate 4.0 over getting a crate 4.2 and upgrading to 4.0???? Especially after reading Joshpit's 4.0 swap article on eaglepedia and seeing all the stuff that has to be done.
5-I'm leaning this direction because it would be almost complete but would still need to mess with the exhaust and other small modifications. However it wouldn't have a warranty, there's a lot to be said about a warranty, and I'd still want it checked out by either a dyno or tearing it apart and add a performance cam.
In order or cheapest to most expensive I'd have to say its:
1-2-3-5-4
However if the #5 engine failed in some way later down the road then it would be last in order.
What do you guys think?
Quote from: olymunch on February 07, 2012, 08:07:19 PM
I just found a 99 and 2000 jeep Cherokee with a 4.0 with the engine for sale for $850. Because its low miles, 54k I think, and cheap because it's wrecked that it would come with all the accessories/wiring harness, it's an automatic 4x4, would this work as a bolt in? I wanna keep my T5.
Not to throw another hitch in this, but, I'd avoid the later 97+ models, they are much different than the earlier ones, harness systems and layout (my 97 was a pain in the arse when it came time to strip the efi out of it). They are no fun to work with. Being that you want to keep it a 5 speed, you could find a cherokee with a 4.0/5 speed combo, (again 93+ would be the best options) and swap the whole thing.
A) You get a better strength tranny that will handle much more stress than your T5.
B) you wouldn't have to buy a aftermarket crank sensor kit.
The issue, you would have to have your mech fab a crossmember for you, and likely have driveshafts made. Again this is just another option, both tougeagle, and txjeeptx put ax15's (cherokee 5 speed) in their eagles, touge has a nice write up on here about what he needed to do.
A camshaft has lobes on it that push against tiny cylinders called lifters. They in turn push up on a "pushrod" that is shaped like a huge straw. Inside the lifter is a tiny spring and mini oil pump. As the camshaft turns the lifter fills with oil and pumps that oil through the pushrod and then sprays it up on the top of the engine. A lifter has a very smooth bottom that is said to mate to the camshaft, so you're supposed to replace the lifters at the same time you replace a camshaft. Its also a very good idea to replace them because they are an important part of the oiling system inside the engine. Your original lifters probably have tired springs inside them that no longer put out the same amount of oil they used to.
I would not bother using a dyno. All you need to know is if the engine has the proper compression in each cylinder. Your mechanic can tell you that if you bring him the engine in a pickup truck. I also would not bother replacing the camshaft if you get a 4.0. It will already have a respectable camshaft, lifters, and head as is. I do have a 258 with Hesco MPI kit and it works great in terms of starting and smooth idle. It just doesn't have the power and fuel efficiency it should because of the poor head and camshaft. There really is a very small difference between the engine choices.
With the T5 you need to use your original flywheel. A 4.0 has a thinner flywheel with notches in it that tell the computer which cylinder is ready to have fuel sprayed into it. The Hesco kit is a special harmonic balancer on the front of the engine made with those same notches, so that you no longer need to have a 4.0 flywheel for MPI to work. Its expensive and they are also prone to breaking because they have a fragile "hall sensor" (an electronics term) right there on the front of the engine instead of inside the top of the bell housing. Hall sensors are also very sensitive to distance, so you need to adjust the bracket once in awhile if it gets bumped. The engine cannot run without the crank sensor. Thats why Hesco offers a trail kit that includes a spare sensor and a spare fuel pump.
Today I purchased a brand new speed sensor for a 1991 YJ at autozone. It is identical to the one Hesco sells for 122 and it cost 70 dollars there. A used one can be purchased for about 30 dollars if you can find one.
Yes you can use an automatic XJ as a donor. A manual XJ is much more desireable however. First the manual XJ will come with an AX15, which is much stronger and smoother than your T5 and it uses the thinner 4.0 flywheel with notches that eliminates the need for the 350 dollar Hesco kit. It takes alot of work to install one, however, so I advise you to keep it simple and stick with your T5.
The automatic computer and the manual computer are exactly the same. The wiring harness is not, however. There is a single wire that gets grounded when the car is in park, telling the computer that it is safe to start. That single wire is permaneantly grounded on the manual car because its not needed. If you use an automatic donor car you will need to find that wire and ground it yourself. I'll be doing this soon, but haven't done it yet. There are descriptions online.
Any 4.0 will come with a flywheel or flexplate that you don't need. You will remove them and bolt on your original flywheel. If its a manual it will have a pilot bearing that needs to be removed. An automatic will be bare and ready to accept your T5 pilot bearing. If its an automatic, the flexplate bolts will be too short for your thick flywheel, but you can reuse your 258 bolts just fine. Its a good idea to replace flywheel bolts, but plenty of us have reused them without a problem.
Do not get a newer XJ. Stick to the 1991 to 1996 version. The Hesco kit is based on the 1992 version because that had the best head casting and the most power of all the years. The newer heads restricted the flow to meet government regulations. They also changed the wiring harness and the AC pump to no longer be easily compatible with our Eagle. Most if not all the available resources online is based on the early stuff, so you'll be without that valuable help. Txjeeptx used a newer intake manifold because he knew that it was slightly better and easily compatible, but he otherwise used older stuff.
Score! I just found the speed sensor we need on the evil bay new for 28.03 (buy it now, more than 10 available, free shipping). In comparison Autozone wants 70 and Hesco wants 122 dollars. Helpful search terms to find what you want include the words "new" "speed" "sensor" "transmission" "vehicle" "Dodge" and "Dakota".
The same one was used on 88-93 Dodge Dakotas as well as 91 to 93 YJ's. The Speed Sensor has an input and an output. It screws into the CJ style transfer case adaptor that is also used in a 1992 XJ. The XJ speed sensor is nearly identical except that it doesn't have the threads and hole for the mechanical speedometer.
The first picture shows the YJ speed sensor I'm talking about. The second pic, in the middle, shows the 92 XJ version that does not have the hole or threads in the center (to be honest it shows a Dodge speed sensor that's nearly identical). Later XJ's replaced this two piece design with a one piece electronic only design.
Option 1: Mount it directly on the back of your Speedo using a brass adaptor to go from tiny threads to big threads. It's tight but this keeps everything else stock. "Tougeagle" used this method in his popular write-up.
Option 2: Mount it on the firewall, have original speedo cable go to it, then an International Scout upper speedometer cable which is only about 2 feet long go from that to your speedo cluster. Scouts had some doohicky on the firewall that interrupted the speedo cable just like this does.
Option 3: Get a common 92 XJ adaptor that plugs into the side of the transfer case. Thread this 91 YJ speed sensor into it. Get a 91 YJ mechanical speedo cable (threaded at both ends) to go from your dash to the speed sensor on your transfer case.
Option 4: Combine option 2 and 3. This is my choice and my recommendation. You use a YJ mechanical speedometer cable instead of the original Eagle Speedometer cable. Screw one end of the speedo cable directly into the XJ transfer case adaptor and the other end into the speed sensor mounted in a convenient spot under the hood. I'll have the short Scout cable to go from the speed sensor to my dash. This keeps all electronic junk organized inside the hood.
Option 5: Eliminate the mechanical speedometer totally by modifying an XJ speedo to fit into the Eagle dash. I included a picture of the dash I'm making for my main car with an XJ tachometer and Speedo.
The last three options are the best in my opinion because you can just unscrew the speedo cable and leave the transfer case fluid alone if you're just removing the transmission to work on something else. It's a mess to deal with popping that stupid integrated speedo cable out of the transfer case all the time. All Jeep transfer cases are interchangeable if you upgrade later, so you'll only have to buy these parts once.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/SpeedSensor.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/VSSRight.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0759.jpg)
Here's the whole two piece design. Only the speed sensor and the colored gears are available new. I'll be getting the middle piece from an XJ because they are much more common than a YJ.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/SpeedSensorwhole.jpg)
Quote from: olymunch on February 06, 2012, 06:46:37 PM
Hahahaha :hello2:
Ya It's definitely a lot but I'm grateful for it! Seems like every answer brings two questions, but that's ok;)
So do you all think that getting a 4.0 engine, installing a better cam, getting the mpi done, and getting the new exhaust manifold(eventually I'd like to do dual setup) is the fastest, probably cheapest option with the least amount labor?
Keeping in mind all the extras I'd have to do if I stayed with the 4.2, installing the mpi either way, and assuming that all the components bolt over to the 4.0 with the exception of the exhaust?
Right now I have a 1981 eagle with shift on the fly, it handled GREAT in the snow up here in Seattle so I think I'll keep that the way it is. I haven't even thought about new gears in the rear and really have no idea what I have. I can squeak the tires in first no problem and I can squeak em going from first to second easy. Although there does seem to be some wheel hop in the rear in the lower gears if I don't shift just right when it's in 2wd.
Initially I just want it to be a great road warrior and I'll take it off-road, trails, and hill climbing occasionally. When I upgrade to a solid front then I'll put in a new tc but still will prob want something that can operate in 4high on dry pavement with an air locker option.
I'm planning to assemble my 4.6L stroker in a couple weeks (while I'm still unable to work and recuperating from getting the rest of my teeth yanked) after I organize my shed so I can get in and move about.
Quote from: captspillane on February 09, 2012, 02:18:12 AM
Score! I just found the speed sensor we need on the evil bay new for 28.03 (buy it now, more than 10 available, free shipping). In comparison Autozone wants 70 and Hesco wants 122 dollars. Helpful search terms to find what you want include the words "new" "speed" "sensor" "transmission" "vehicle" "Dodge" and "Dakota".
The same one was used on 88-93 Dodge Dakotas as well as 91 to 93 YJ's. The Speed Sensor has an input and an output. It screws into the CJ style transfer case adaptor that is also used in a 1992 XJ. The XJ speed sensor is nearly identical except that it doesn't have the threads and hole for the mechanical speedometer.
The first picture shows the YJ speed sensor I'm talking about. The second pic, in the middle, shows the 92 XJ version that does not have the hole or threads in the center (to be honest it shows a Dodge speed sensor that's nearly identical). Later XJ's replaced this two piece design with a one piece electronic only design.
Option 1: Mount it directly on the back of your Speedo using a brass adaptor to go from tiny threads to big threads. It's tight but this keeps everything else stock. "Tougeagle" used this method in his popular write-up.
Option 2: Mount it on the firewall, have original speedo cable go to it, then an International Scout upper speedometer cable which is only about 2 feet long go from that to your speedo cluster. Scouts had some doohicky on the firewall that interrupted the speedo cable just like this does.
Option 3: Get a common 92 XJ adaptor that plugs into the side of the transfer case. Thread this 91 YJ speed sensor into it. Get a 91 YJ mechanical speedo cable (threaded at both ends) to go from your dash to the speed sensor on your transfer case.
Option 4: Combine option 2 and 3. This is my choice and my recommendation. You use a YJ mechanical speedometer cable instead of the original Eagle Speedometer cable. Screw one end of the speedo cable directly into the XJ transfer case adaptor and the other end into the speed sensor mounted in a convenient spot under the hood. I'll have the short Scout cable to go from the speed sensor to my dash. This keeps all electronic junk organized inside the hood.
Option 5: Eliminate the mechanical speedometer totally by modifying an XJ speedo to fit into the Eagle dash. I included a picture of the dash I'm making for my main car with an XJ tachometer and Speedo.
The last three options are the best in my opinion because you can just unscrew the speedo cable and leave the transfer case fluid alone if you're just removing the transmission to work on something else. It's a mess to deal with popping that stupid integrated speedo cable out of the transfer case all the time. All Jeep transfer cases are interchangeable if you upgrade later, so you'll only have to buy these parts once.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/SpeedSensor.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/VSSRight.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0759.jpg)
91 only XJ has a 1 piece with passthrough sensor and cable attachment (I have one on my shelf for the '93 Grand Cherokee AW4/Rubicon NV241 4:1 transfercase combo I'm putting in my J10.
Quote from: captspillane on February 08, 2012, 01:41:30 PM
Yes you can use an automatic XJ as a donor. A manual XJ is much more desireable however. First the manual XJ will come with an AX15, which is much stronger and smoother than your T5 and it uses the thinner 4.0 flywheel with notches that eliminates the need for the 350 dollar Hesco kit. It takes alot of work to install one, however, so I advise you to keep it simple and stick with your T5.
The automatic computer and the manual computer are exactly the same. The wiring harness is not, however. There is a single wire that gets grounded when the car is in park, telling the computer that it is safe to start. That single wire is permaneantly grounded on the manual car because its not needed. If you use an automatic donor car you will need to find that wire and ground it yourself. I'll be doing this soon, but haven't done it yet. There are descriptions online.
Any 4.0 will come with a flywheel or flexplate that you don't need. You will remove them and bolt on your original flywheel. If its a manual it will have a pilot bearing that needs to be removed. An automatic will be bare and ready to accept your T5 pilot bearing. If its an automatic, the flexplate bolts will be too short for your thick flywheel, but you can reuse your 258 bolts just fine. Its a good idea to replace flywheel bolts, but plenty of us have reused them without a problem.
Do not get a newer XJ. Stick to the 1991 to 1996 version. The Hesco kit is based on the 1992 version because that had the best head casting and the most power of all the years. The newer heads restricted the flow to meet government regulations. They also changed the wiring harness and the AC pump to no longer be easily compatible with our Eagle. Most if not all the available resources online is based on the early stuff, so you'll be without that valuable help. Txjeeptx used a newer intake manifold because he knew that it was slightly better and easily compatible, but he otherwise used older stuff.
You want late '89 up for an AX-15 (if you look at the shifter tower, it has 4 bolts holding it in as opposed to 3 screws for the earlier and weaker BA 10/5) Some claim there are no 21 spline AX-15s, but '91 up XJ, including AW4s are all 23 spline for sure. The spline depth after '95 changed at some point and the gears became helical cut for less noise too.
Quote from: captspillane on February 08, 2012, 01:17:45 PM
A camshaft has lobes on it that push against tiny cylinders called lifters. They in turn push up on a "pushrod" that is shaped like a huge straw. Inside the lifter is a tiny spring and mini oil pump. As the camshaft turns the lifter fills with oil and pumps that oil through the pushrod and then sprays it up on the top of the engine. A lifter has a very smooth bottom that is said to mate to the camshaft, so you're supposed to replace the lifters at the same time you replace a camshaft. Its also a very good idea to replace them because they are an important part of the oiling system inside the engine. Your original lifters probably have tired springs inside them that no longer put out the same amount of oil they used to.
I would not bother using a dyno. All you need to know is if the engine has the proper compression in each cylinder. Your mechanic can tell you that if you bring him the engine in a pickup truck. I also would not bother replacing the camshaft if you get a 4.0. It will already have a respectable camshaft, lifters, and head as is. I do have a 258 with Hesco MPI kit and it works great in terms of starting and smooth idle. It just doesn't have the power and fuel efficiency it should because of the poor head and camshaft. There really is a very small difference between the engine choices.
With the T5 you need to use your original flywheel. A 4.0 has a thinner flywheel with notches in it that tell the computer which cylinder is ready to have fuel sprayed into it. The Hesco kit is a special harmonic balancer on the front of the engine made with those same notches, so that you no longer need to have a 4.0 flywheel for MPI to work. Its expensive and they are also prone to breaking because they have a fragile "hall sensor" (an electronics term) right there on the front of the engine instead of inside the top of the bell housing. Hall sensors are also very sensitive to distance, so you need to adjust the bracket once in awhile if it gets bumped. The engine cannot run without the crank sensor. Thats why Hesco offers a trail kit that includes a spare sensor and a spare fuel pump.
(trimmed a bit)
With the T5, you can use a 4.0L flywheel and the starter, depending which bell housing you use. The nose of the 4.0L starter may hit the bell (if it had the Ford type starter) and keep it from engaging the flywheel.
With fuel injection you can't go too wild on the cam because the sensors would need changing and the computer reprogrammed to make it work right.
Quote from: olymunch on February 06, 2012, 08:44:51 PM
Ok it looks like koller is no longer in business, I'll check out hesco, I'm def more into the mpi over tbi.
It looks like there's two kits, one is a mopar mpi kit for almost 2.5k and the other is a jeep DFI MPI kit for about 2k.
I can't find any real difference, is there?
I'm taking the harness from a '91 XJ (bought from a local 4x4 shop for $200 already pulled, complete with intake and injectors. I already have an HO head I need to grind valves on) and putting it in my Eagle (using one from a std trans because I still have a 727 and not the AW4 in it) I'll be making an adapter plug to go from the firewall connector to this harness
Quote from: olymunch on February 07, 2012, 08:07:19 PM
Ya there's definitely a lot I don't know, what's a lifter?, but I google a lot. And it's true there is a lot of info on this site but having a conversation is helpful. When you observe two people who know what they are talking about it's easy to get lost in the lingo. Bell housing sensor what? But actually your both right. "A person who knows everything can't be taught anything." And that's exactly where I'm at, I have no problem asking the "dumb" questions but try to google as much as I can before I ask.
That's a good point tho, if I could just find a newer jeep with everything I need already in then I'd do that. And even upgrade the cam.
I just found a 99 and 2000 jeep Cherokee with a 4.0 with the engine for sale for $850. Because its low miles, 54k I think, and cheap because it's wrecked that it would come with all the accessories/wiring harness, it's an automatic 4x4, would this work as a bolt in? I wanna keep my T5.
Is there anywhere that would tell me what year make and model of jeep swap directly in to my eagle and bolt up to the T5? Obviously only newer wih mpi already on. Itd be nice to have a brand new engine with a 70/10 warranty but if I can get close then that would be great to. It's all about balance, price, reliability, time, power. If I can find a jeep, like you said, and just go grab the engine out of it, I'd even be willing to throw it on a dyno, ~$300, just for the piece of mind. The more options the better. I use an app on my phone to search all of the "list" at once.
I can always grab an engine and throw it the bed of my f150 and take it over to my mechanic after I get it dyno'd.
If your mechanic balks at the job (with too many "ain't done it befores", things can be daunting) see John over at Auburn car repair in Auburn just off highway 167 by the horse track. He has a swap guy that's done a lot of YJ conversions with the XJ harness.
This is the list you gave earlier in one of your replies. Some of them didn't make sense, but I think I know what you meant. I added options 6, 7, and 8 to make it complete as possible. It took me 5 hours of active typing and editing to write this.
I'm going to guess at reasonable numbers for horsepower and cost just to compare the options. Your mechanic quoted 3K to rebuild your transmission, transfer case, and install a crate motor. That means he is charging you 2K for the crate motor and 1K to rebuild everything exactly stock. It's a lot easier and faster to put something back together exactly how you took it apart. That's a great deal and I do not think he'll still charge you 1K if you add the time and labor of a conversion. I've estimated what I think he'll charge you in labor for each option based on that information.
You've stated "get a performance camshaft" at each option, but that doesn't make much sense. There is a negligible difference between the Crane cam (Crane is a company) and the original 4.0 camshaft. The only camshaft that sucks is the original 4.2 camshaft. There should be a 40 or 50 horsepower difference between the 4.2 and 4.0 camshaft. There should be no power difference between the "RV" Crane cam that I use and the 4.0 cam. The only advantage is that the power increases differently and peaks at a lower RPM. Crane also makes performance camshafts that will see a minor increase in horsepower, we'll say 5 HP, at the expense of rough idle and decreased fuel efficiency. A Crane cam costs much more than a stock 4.0 cam. Considering the cost and benefit, I assumed you would stick with the stock 4.0 cam for options 4 and 5 but opt for the performance cam if you buy one for options 1, 2, 3.
1) Stay with the original 4.2 motor because it runs fine.
2) Get a long block 4.2 crate motor
3) Get a short block 4.2 crate motor
4) Get a long block 4.0 crate motor
5) Get a used 4.0 with low miles
6) Get a 4.7L Stroker crate motor
7) Build a 4.7L Stroker motor using your old engine and used parts
8 ) Install an AMC V8
1A) Stay with the original motor as is and install the Hesco MPI kit. Pay 1K to rebuild your transmission. Pay 2K for the Hesco kit and have it installed. For 3000 total you'll have a used engine that starts and idles much better than stock. You'll have a used engine with 125 HP for $3000.
Adding a performance camshaft gives you a used engine with 165 HP for $3250.
Adding a 4.0 head without replacing the camshaft is foolish because its less power for more money. You'd have 155 HP for $3500.
Adding a 4.0 head and performance camshaft gives you a used engine with 195 HP for $3700.
1B) Stay with the original motor as is and install Gronk's Motorcraft 2150 carb. This is not something you or I would do because we love MPI, but it's an important option for someone else reading this list. In comparison to option 1A, many would argue the benefit of MPI is not worth the cost. Pay 1500 dollars for transmission rebuild, the cost of the kit, and the installation. You'll have a used engine that starts and idles much better than stock but needs annual adjustments. Most people would go this route because it literally costs half as much as the first option with negligible difference in performance. The restriction from the original intake and exhaust manifold doesn't matter initially, but its effect diminishes the increase from head and cam upgrades. It also is a very simple upgrade that leaves most of your engine alone. It's very easy to troubleshoot. You'll have a used engine with 125 HP for $1500.
Adding a performance camshaft gives you a used engine with 150 HP for $1750.
Adding a 4.0 head only gives you a used engine with 140 HP for $2000.
Adding a 4.0 head and performance camshaft gives you a used engine with 180 HP for $2200.
Rebuilding your lower end similar to option 1C but with a 2150 carb would give you a nearly new engine with 180 HP for $2900.
1C) Have your mechanic rebuild your engine with new main bearings, rings, rod bearings, gaskets, seals, and timing chain. This is easier than rebuilding a transmission. I expect that he would charge you between $700 and $1000 including all the parts. A short block crate motor with this work already done would cost $1200 to $1400 dollars but it would include machine work to make it slightly more reliable. This is also a good option if you can find a low mileage motor below 60K miles for less than 300 dollars to have rebuilt and ready to install before dismantling your roadworthy car.
This option means that you'll have a nearly new engine with 195 HP for $4500.
2A) You could take the mechanic up on his original offer and get a long block crate engine installed. If you left it totally original it would cost you 3000 dollars for a brand new engine with 115 HP.
2B) You could add a Hesco MPI kit to the long block 4.2L. 1K transmission rebuild, $2000 to 2200 for the crate motor, and 2K for the MPI kit. It will cost you $5000 for a brand new engine that gets 125 HP.
2C) You could be foolish and buy a long block 4.2L instead of a short block crate motor. This costs 2000 to 2200 dollars. Afterwards you could buy a new head gasket, camshaft, and head to replace the brand new camshaft and head the long block came with. That will cost you $700 dollars. You'll still get the Hesco MPI for 2K. You'll have spent $5700 for a brand new engine that gets 195 HP.
3) Get a short block 4.2L crate motor and add a Hesco MPI for 2K. This costs between 1200 and 1400 dollars. Add $700 for a new 4.0 head and performance camshaft. Install engine and rebuild transmission for 1k. You'll have spent the same as option 2B but gotten much more power. You'll have created the identical engine as option 2C for cheaper. You'll have spent $4900 for a brand new engine that gets 195 HP.
4) You could start with a 4.0 long block crate motor before adding MPI and installation costs. You will have a new engine with 190 HP for $5000.
In comparison to option 3 you will have spent a meager 100 dollars more for a meager 5 HP less. The minor decrease in power is the result of the slightly smaller displacement and negligible difference between stock 4.0 and performance camshafts. The advantage is that you may protect your crate motor warranty if you do not disassemble the engine. It will take slightly less time to install. Your engine will be equivalent to a stock 1992 Cherokee instead of a hodge-podge of different parts. You will have the metal timing gear already. You will have the bolt bosses on the block to accept 4.0 accessory brackets with ease, which makes it much simpler to install a superior serpentine belt system.
5) You could get a low mileage used 4.0 along with all the serpentine belt accessories, computer, and wiring harness for about $600 dollars. You would not need most of the Hesco kit but still need a crank position sensor (Hesco's notched harmonic balancer kit), speed sensor, and a fuel pump ($600 total). Installation would cost 1K still, but minor issues during installation will add up to 500 dollars in labor. You will already have a respectable camshaft and head.
You will then have a used motor with 190 HP for $2700. (In comparison option 1A which gave you a used engine with 195 HP for $3700 and option 1B gave you a used engine with 180 HP for $2200)
6) A 4.7L stroker motor is available as a crate engine for about $2700. A stroker is externally the same as a 4.0 motor. It uses a larger volume of fuel and will get less fuel mileage. It gives alot more power for a relatively small amount of money. 0ption 4, in comparison, gives you a new complete 4.0 engine with warranty and 190 HP for $5000. The stroker crate motor would provide a new complete 4.7 engine with warranty and 260 HP for $5500.
A 4.9 crate engine is also advertised with three year warranty for $3700. Its advertised to provide 315 HP but I find that to be possible only if they tested it at a very high RPM. If you used it in a reasonable RPM range I bet it would provide 300 HP. That's still quite respectable. You'll need special high volume injectors and you'll lose considerable fuel mileage but gain lots of power. That gives you a new motor with 315 HP for $6700.
7) Build a 4.7L Stroker motor using your old engine and used parts. Option 5 could be modified by machining the used 4.0 block and adding your old 4.2 crank. I estimate a $1500 dollar added cost for the rebuild and machine work. You would then have a new 4.7 engine without a warranty and 260 HP for between $4500 and $5200.
I would suggest buying a different 4.2 crank to use while your Eagle remains roadworthy because the machine work and rebuild would take two to three months for your mechanic to complete (he has to wait to send parts out and get them back) and another month or two to source the parts. If your donor parts have low miles and you simply rebuild and assemble everything without machine work, you can expect it to cost $3500 to $4700 (including 1K for transmission rebuild and engine removal). This is a popular option because it compares well to the cost of the crate engine options but gets more power while all the expenses come slowly and in big chunks instead of all at once.
8 ) Install an AMC V8. This is a viable option because of Terry's conversion mounts that he makes for $350 dollars. A donor AMC V8 in good condition with all the accessories and manifolds included costs between $400 and $900 dollars. The radiator must be upgraded ($150) and your front coil springs should be upgraded to heavier Javelin spring ($100). The rear axle should be upgraded, but I will not include the rear axle cost because a stock 4.0 is also too powerful for your stock rear. I will not include the upgrade of the transmission because a T5 works fine behind a 304 and mild 360, but it should be upgraded to a NV3550 or TF727 behind a 401. I included the 1K transmission rebuild and engine swap labor, but included an extra $200 dollars to modify the exhaust. I assumed a basic engine rebuild with new bearings and rings but no machine work at a value of $800 dollars. Since we're comparing to the quality of fuel injected 6 cylinder, I included a 1300 dollar fuel injection kit for the V8 as well as $200 for a performance cam. An MPI kit is available for $2900 dollars but it's much more common to install the Howell TBI kit on an AMC V8.
With a 304 V8 you'll have a nearly new engine with 225 HP for $3500.
With a 360 V8 you'll have a nearly new engine with 295 HP for $3600.
With a 401 V8 you'll have a nearly new engine with 340 HP for $4000
Crate motors with warranties are available for AMC V8s. They would add between $1500 to $5000 to those cost estimates. A professionally built AMC 401 has the potential to provide well over 400 HP.
Dang.
I won't be using the expensive Hesco CPS kit because its expensive and relatively fragile. The Crank Position Sensor can be installed on your TF998 if you buy a flexplate with the proper notches. Here is some information I found today for the DIY types who read this same thread.
You need to get a flexplate from a 1991 to 1995 YJ Wrangler. (A 93 to 96 Grand Cherokee supposedly has the same flexplate). You can use either the square XJ sensor or the round YJ sensor. If you use the round YJ sensor you just need to drill a half inch hole in the bellhousing. If you get the square one you will need to make a much larger hole in the bellhousing. You put a thin piece of cardboard the thickness of a matchbook cover on the sensor and then adjust that snug to the flexplate. A new sensor actually comes with the cardboard in place. I attached a picture from the Novak website with their solution.
A Renix style flexplate and an AW4 flexplate will not work. 1990 and older sensors had different trigger notches. The AW4 flexplate puts the torque converter 5mm closer to the transmission, which will quickly do alot of damage. I've also seen evidence that the 97-04 CPS sensors use 5 volts while the 91-96 use 8 volts. That means you need to be careful which sensor you use. They look identical but they likely have a different resistance.
Today I also found this awesome write up here on the Eagle nest. He had a fan clearence issue because his engine came from an XJ. A YJ has the fan in the center and an XJ has the fan off to one side with an electrical fan on the other side.
http://www.amceaglenest.com/images/PDFS/Joshs%204.0%20Walkthrough.pdf
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/2012%20Eagle%20Web/amc_cps_install.jpg)
Good to know!!
Grand Cherokee 4.0Ls also have the centered fan (That's what I put in my '84 J10)
I would really suggest doing a '91 to '95 Wrangler 999 converter and flexplate off a 4.0L together to ensure it doesn't go in too deep, but I was under the impression the factory sensor was the same as the Hesco (mounted on the harmonic balancer)
The 4 cyl is on the flexplate (I have one of those flexplates for sale for Renix TBI)
In my research I came across this: http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/stroker.html
It describes all the different stroker options for the 6cyl. At the heart of the stroker kits looks like a lot of parts from the 258ci 4.2L. Now I've decided to stay with the crate 258 because instillation requires way less mods to the engine bay and bell housing etc.. I'll prob just upgrade the 4.2 to a 4.0 and add the mpi, however, if I was going to upgrade all the way with the stroker 4.6, could I still keep the crate 258? I'd like to get a wider stance and posi anyway.
Also upping to power with the 4.0 and mpi kit only, do I need to upgrade my rear end?
Oh and if there is a write up on converting the 258 to a 4.6L stroker can someone please let me know. There's info on converting a crate 4.0 to stroker but nothing that I can find on the 258.
The jeep stroker is by definition a 4.0 block with a 4.2 crank(or 232 crank for the newer "mini" stroker) there is not a way to use a 258 crate engine for a stroker as you couldn't bore a 258 that far unless it's a very rare block, the cylinder walls aren't going to take it. On that page you referenced (that's Dino, or Cheromaniac on Jeepstrokers.com) you could build a "poor man's" stroker.
I have one running 4.6 in a ZJ and am concurrently building 2 more for my 98 Ex-USFS XJ and my 82 SX/4 I'm using the heavy 12 cwt crank & short rods for the XJ one(66 lb. crank; more inertia, better for crawling), and a light 4 cwt crank & long rods with KB 944 pistons for the SX4 one(46 lb. crank faster spin up & better throttle response in a car for running around the dirt roads etc..).
A minimalist approach would be to take your 258 crank & have it ground(if needed, but often they can be re-used with just a re-polish), rebuild the 258 rods, then get a good running 4.0 that has good compression and pull it down, substitute the 258 crank & rods for the 4.0 ones using the 4.0 pistons(back into the same holes) have the cylinders re-honed/just break the glaze(you could even do this yourself with a cylinder hone & a power drill). Put it all back together with new gaskets & possibly new bottom bearings as needed to match your 258 crank. I personally would rather build from the ground up but the outlined method will work & get you to around 240 HP. If for some reason you want to keep the Carb you could still do that however you'd need to convert to an electric pump as the 4.0 block has no provision for mounting the manual pump. If your 4.0 donor was sold due to a spun bearing(a great finds as it'll be cheap & you are going to be replaceing the crank & rods anyway) then you should be able to get it for around $200 which should put you all in at $500-$700 depending on need for bearings & how much machine work you decide to do.
By the way that scenario where you just break the glaze on the cylinder walls so that the rings will re-seat will actually give you a 4.5(.020-.030 over is 4.6 and .060 over yields a 4.7)
Oh! Well I guess that's why I couldn't find any info on it then. Well I guess the extra power and range I'll get from the 4.0 and mpi will have to do. What do you think, do it need to put a better rear end in?
I'd do something about the 2 piece axle shafts, otherwise it's probably fine. There are millions of D35's(your aAMC-15 is basically a D35 with different shafts & the wheelbearings are different) on the road behind 4.0's they get a bit of a bad rap from the hard core 4x4 crowd but in an Eagle it should be fine. Most anything that you could easily swap in is going to be lower geared than your Eagle. That's not a terrible thing, but it opens the can of worms of needing to make the front match. I haven't done the research for what it would take to put D35 solid axles into an AMC15(I'm sure they could be made to work with a different bearing or some ingenuity) If I were doing it and trying to keep my original ratio while getting rid of the 2 piece shafts I'd probably get a D35 from a wrecking yard, grind the welds to pull the shock mounts from both axles then put the Eagle shock mounts on the Cherokee axle & finally put the Eagles ring & pinion into it(I've setup R&P's before by the way, even for a NewB it's not terrible, just time consuming).
My SX/4 is getting a Cherokee 8.25" rear axle with 3.07 gears & ZJ rear disc's a little later(next fall) she'll get later model axle shafts to go the the 29 spine and an Eaton worm-gear driven positraction
Eventually. I'm doing mine sooner than later. I have an XJ 8.25 with 3.08 to go in and non-vac front to match.
The axle tubes on the Eagle are a bit thinner than XJ as well.
Sounds good, yea Im not yet that familiar what the different ratios do but it sounds like the one I have is good.
I'm just going to be going fast and doing some hill climbing and trails, no hard crawling.
I can give he ll to my stroker on the trails it comes back for more.
i have a stroker 4.7 to drop in wifeys car. aftually i did. now to integrate it
Quote from: captspillane on February 07, 2012, 09:29:56 AM
I also firmly believe that ignorance and frustration is the reason so many Eagles end up in the scrapyard.
Truer words never been spoken!
One calculation that is crucial to engine performance is quench. Before I disassemble any engine I plan on rebuilding I measure piston height at TDC and mark it on the block in each corner if a "V" engine or at each end on an inline. For instance if the pistons are more than .010" in the hole at the top of their stroke I have the deck milled to a measurement of .000" The reason for this is Felpro or Victor head gaskets are .043" crushed thickness. The original shim type gaskets the manufacturer use are much thinner .023" the increase in gasket thickness with pistons deep in the hole at TDC causes reduced compression. At a wimpy 8.2 to begin with, I will not tolerate anything less, let alone the fact that you get diminished returns on your cam selection with low compression. Another reason why 4.0L have HP advantages over a stock 4.2L....COMPRESSION. It's all the little things that make one engine run better than another, attention to the details. If 9:1 pistons were redily availible for the 4.2 this wouldn't be as critical, but even if they were, I'd still get my quench to around .045".
Quote from: olymunch on April 18, 2012, 08:45:37 PM
In my research I came across this: http://www.jeep4.0performance.4mg.com/stroker.html
It describes all the different stroker options for the 6cyl. At the heart of the stroker kits looks like a lot of parts from the 258ci 4.2L. Now I've decided to stay with the crate 258 because instillation requires way less mods to the engine bay and bell housing etc.. I'll prob just upgrade the 4.2 to a 4.0 and add the mpi, however, if I was going to upgrade all the way with the stroker 4.6, could I still keep the crate 258? I'd like to get a wider stance and posi anyway.
Also upping to power with the 4.0 and mpi kit only, do I need to upgrade my rear end?
Oh and if there is a write up on converting the 258 to a 4.6L stroker can someone please let me know. There's info on converting a crate 4.0 to stroker but nothing that I can find on the 258.
Quote from: doc65 on April 18, 2012, 09:56:23 PM
The jeep stroker is by definition a 4.0 block with a 4.2 crank(or 232 crank for the newer "mini" stroker) there is not a way to use a 258 crate engine for a stroker as you couldn't bore a 258 that far unless it's a very rare block.
I know this is an older post, but I came across it while doing some searching for something else. The bore has nothing to do with a "stroker" it's the stroke that makes it a stroker. All stroker means is making the stroke longer. With the 4.0L stroker you have the same stroke as your 258 but the larger bore of the 4.0L gives you the added displacement. Flatlander makes a kit to stroke the 258 so you can retain your stock block. http://www.flatlanderracing.com/strokeramc-258.html