I've got the trans in my 81 SX/4 and when I grab the front diveshaft yoke and the rear driveshaft yoke I can turne one while holding the other stationary with very little effort. I read on another member's thread that it should take quite a bit of pressure to do this so I think the viscous coupling in my transfer case is gone. I know Autozone sells a complete rebuilt unit for $620 with exchange but I'm thinking by the time I pay shipping for two transfer cases and duty and "brokerage fees" the total cost is going to be $1000 - $1200.
My husband says a better idea would be to buy a new viscous coupling and he can install it himself. Do any of you know where I can get one? My SX/4 is full time 4 wheel drive I'm not sure which case that is, perhaps NP119?
The clutch itself is expensive too:
http://www.drivetrain.com/parts_catalog/transfer_case_replacements_and_parts/np229.html
$745........
That web site does not appear to have any parts for an NP119.
the 119 that i installed in my wagon was the same way
Quote from: thereverendbill on October 24, 2011, 03:07:16 PM
the 119 that i installed in my wagon was the same way
You mean it was very easy to turn one yoke while holding the other stationary? Was your transfer case good?
Somewhere I have a link to a company that sells refurbished units and upgrade parts. I thought they had them for under a 100 dollars. I'll start searching for where I saved that link. This is an awesome write up I just found online detailing how someone changed it on a 249. We should have the same exact coupling and similar installation steps in our Eagle transfer cases.
http://www.masoncomputing.com/np249/
You're supposed to use anearobic sealer instead of RTV. Thats a type of sealer that stays liquid in the presence of oxygen. I've heard horror stories of excess RTV breaking off inside the case and clogging oiling holes, which burns up bearings pretty quick.
You're right that a properly working Viscous coupling will resist you a great deal. I've heard of people driving for a few hours in 4WD without a front driveshaft before the viscous coupling gets smoked. It should be strong enough to propel the car forward. Once it burns out its not that big of a deal, since some Eagles don''t even have one. It a normal open differential once they stop working. Very few Eagle owners have working units.
Thanks Captspillane.
Not sure about a249, but I will be writing up a vc swap on a 229 soon. Provided I do not have a girly scream while doing so.a 229 is basically the same as a 119.
Quote from: mudkicker715 on October 24, 2011, 04:11:07 PM
a 229 is basically the same as a 119.
According to the link Jurjen posted a 229 is selectable 2/4wd. Mine is not, its full time 4wd.
Same vc however. Its shared by a few cases
Quote from: mudkicker715 on October 24, 2011, 04:36:11 PM
Same vc however. Its shared by a few cases
Are you sure? The link Jurjen posted shows the VC for the 229 at $750 whereas Autozone sells the complete rebuilt transfer case for $620 with core. In Jurjen's link the VC is about 1/3 the cost of the entire rebuild kit, on that basis the Autozone VC should be about $200.
I will say 99% sure. That vc is shared by a few others as well. Tomorrow i'm rebuilding my 229 with a chain from iirc a 119 and a vc from a 129. Might use the 129's chain. But for giggles. Lets have someone hold my beer and watch this. Haha. Otherwise pretty certain as said.
For the 229 I can find prices ranging from 400 to 450$.
Maybe you can give the drivetrain guys a call.
In the TSM is a procedure with a torque wrench to check the VC.
Note that the VC is not "locked" when the silicone fluid is cold and will start locking when heating up.
When you find small silicon droplets in the TC oil, you will know that the VC is gone.
Here's my dilema (spell check retard moment).
http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36572.0
As far as what jurjen says. There is a torque value for give. That iirc is 50lbs cold. Jack a front put a torque wrench on a front jacked tire with all others on ground. Chock ground tire. And use torque wrech to read. If good should be 50lbs to turn.
Quote from: Jurjen on October 24, 2011, 05:12:53 PM
For the 229 I can find prices ranging from 400 to 450$.
Maybe you can give the drivetrain guys a call.
The drivetrain guys list the VC for the 229 for $750. I'm thinking the VC for the 119 must be available a great deal cheaper elsewhere if Autozone can sell a complete rebuilt 119 transfer case for $620.
Here is an idea of what i'm doing tomorrow.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc55/mudkicker715/2011-10-24162307.jpg)
Quote from: priya on October 24, 2011, 05:59:03 PM
Quote from: Jurjen on October 24, 2011, 05:12:53 PM
For the 229 I can find prices ranging from 400 to 450$.
Maybe you can give the drivetrain guys a call.
The drivetrain guys list the VC for the 229 for $750. I'm thinking the VC for the 119 must be available a great deal cheaper elsewhere if Autozone can sell a complete rebuilt 119 transfer case for $620.
Are they replacing the coupler in a rebuilt case? Maybe they are using old ones that still meet specs.
Quote from: eaglefreek on October 24, 2011, 06:37:55 PM
Are they replacing the coupler in a rebuilt case? Maybe they are using old ones that still meet specs.
I'm pretty sure they'd be replacing the VC as I doubt there'd be very many used ones still meeting specs and even if there were some it would be next to impossible to get ahold of them on demand and it would be pretty misleading to advertise the unit as rebuilt if the major component in it isn't.
Many car parts are rebuilt with used parts that still meet specs. I would call the company that rebuilds the TC and see if they have an answer for you. Also the TC is cheaper at $600 with a $250 core charge from their website. http://www.midwesttrans.com/index.html
Quote from: eaglefreek on October 24, 2011, 07:04:15 PM
Many car parts are rebuilt with used parts that still meet specs.
I've never heard of that happening. Once again, I think even if they wanted to use used VCs that still meet specs it would be impossible to find anwhere near enough of them to fill orders as they come in. If every core that came in had a good VC then they could do it but its a certainty that precious few cores are going to come in with VCs still meeting specs or they wouldn't have been removed from the car in the first place.
Quote from: priya on October 24, 2011, 03:40:04 PM
Quote from: thereverendbill on October 24, 2011, 03:07:16 PM
the 119 that i installed in my wagon was the same way
You mean it was very easy to turn one yoke while holding the other stationary? Was your transfer case good?
yup, we noticed that when we loaded it into my jeep to bring it home. when i put the transfer case in the car I forgot to lock the front drive shaft as well and the car refused to move but only spun the front driveshaft very fast. after we locked the front axle the car moved great and has been going good for about 600 miles and counting
Quote from: priya on October 24, 2011, 07:09:36 PM
Quote from: eaglefreek on October 24, 2011, 07:04:15 PM
Many car parts are rebuilt with used parts that still meet specs.
I've never heard of that happening.
Are you assuming every part is new in a rebuilt engine, transmission, transfer case, alternator, etc.? If that was the case it would be more money than a new assembly. Here's a quote from the Automotive Parts Remaufactuers Association: http://www.apra.org/About/Reman.asp
"For all practical purposes, remanufacturing automotive parts is very much like assembling new parts except that many of the components are taken from used parts, especially the housing. In remanufacturing, the part must be completely disassembled, cleaned and examined for wear and breakage. Worn out, missing or non-functioning components are replaced with new or rebuilt components. Electrical parts frequently need rewinding or rewiring. After all work is done, the part is reassembled and tested for compliance with performance specifications."
In other words if components aren't worn out and meet specs they are reused.
This link has alot of information on the different transfer cases available. I have most of the transfer cases listed, so at some point this winter I will crack them apart and find out for sure if the Viscous Coupling is the same. I'm pretty sure they all use the same VC.
http://www.n0kfb.org/homepage/amc/tech/transfer_case/swap/
The link does forget to mention the 249. That case is found in Grand Cherokees. The 93 to 95 249s should be avoided because they had an open differential in low range. Thats no good. The 96 to 98 249s are low locked like all the others.
I put a 242 in my Red SX4. The slip yoke went on my driveshaft U joints as is. I did have to put a section of metal pipe around the shank of the original slip piston, because the slip yoke and the piston in the driveshaft together made the driveshaft able to fall off.
I agree that remanufactured parts reuse some components, but they do not bother to even test gaskets, O-rings, chains, and other obviously wear affected parts. Reusing a viscous coupling would be alot like reusing a timing chain. Timing chains are always replaced in remanufactured engines, even if a used one is still in spec. It might be possible for a factory to split the VC apart and refresh the internals in similar fashion to the remanufacturing of torque converters. Otherwise they are using rebuild parts at a fraction of the cost as the ones we're looking at in order to offer complete units for the prices available. I agree with Priya.
I agree it would be illogical to use a 30 year old VC however many large companies don't run off of logic. They run off of dollars. If they can save a few bucks and reuse a part that still works they will. I'm not talking about gaskets and Orings. I knew a guy who worked for a major engine rebuilder. They would routinely overbore one cylinder and and just hone the rest if they were in spec. So you would get an engine with one or two .030 over pistons and the rest are cleaned originals. I'm not saying that's what they do with the TC. That's why I said to call them.
Thanks for the link Captspillane. That explains most of the cases nicely and confirms that my transfer case is an NP119. I think I'm going to stick with the NP119, I like a full time 4wd and have no need of a low range.
Logic has no room in the automotive re-manufacturing world! Rebuilders get TONS of used tcases, etc from junkyards. Many are just used units with say a hole in the case. They put the internals into another case and Voilà! rebuilt tcase, please pay on your way out!
The same VC is used in NP119, 129, 219 and 229 (possibly some others) The FSJ NP219 is a direct swap for the NP119 except it also has low range (an added benefit) and E drive. They were only used '80 to mid '82 (Jeep also used NP208 in a lot of those rigs) With the number of FSJs "retiring" and not needing parts, the number of spare parts being available is starting to dwindle too.
I've been in the automotive repair field for nearly 40 years. The number of unethical repair shops used to hover around the 80% mark and I don't think it has changed that much over the years. I sell parts now and the number of "shops" that call to pick my brain about possible issues with pre-OBDII vehicles is close to 80%. They are what we call the "Plug and Prey" mechanics that I wouldn't take anything but the most menial tasks to.
The VC is one of those "Works or doesn't work" things that's easy to test visually if it's in your hand. Some rebuild shops even swap the VC for the differential from a NP128 or NP228.
Quote from: priya on October 25, 2011, 11:38:06 AM
Quote from: eaglefreek on October 25, 2011, 09:33:09 AM
I agree it would be illogical to use a 30 year old VC however many large companies don't run off of logic. They run off of dollars. If they can save a few bucks and reuse a part that still works they will. I'm not talking about gaskets and Orings. I knew a guy who worked for a major engine rebuilder. They would routinely overbore one cylinder and and just hone the rest if they were in spec. So you would get an engine with one or two .030 over pistons and the rest are cleaned originals. I'm not saying that's what they do with the TC. That's why I said to call them.
Eaglefreek that would be an extremely unusual situation, no reputable engine builder would do that. And certainly it would be far from routine for an engine to come in for a rebuild with one cylinder out of spec and the other's in spec so the odds of getting a rebuilt engine with used pistons from an unscrupulous manufacturer would be very slim in any event.
As I said earlier in order for them to use used VC's in spec they'd have to find them first and either every core that comes in would have to have an in spec VC (impossible) or they'd have to go out and buy 10 or 20 used transfer cases to find one good in spec VC, that would be time consuming and more expensive than putting in new VCs if it could even be done. If you're saying its possible they could put in used VC's sure anything is possible, they could be getting in cores, cleaning the exterior and sending them out as rebuilt units. The question is is it likely and common sense says no, its not likely at all.
Now if you don't have any suggestions as to where I can find a new viscous coupling at a price proportional to the $620 Autozone sells a remanufactured transfer case for I have no need of further comments from you.
The VC in my Eagle went out after I got it back from Nebraska. The transmission shop I took it to rebuilt the VC but did say they could order one for like $800. I was comfortable with them because they have an Eagle sitting out back that is owned by a friend of the shops owner. Someday, I may be able to get that Eagle if they ever want to part with it.
Carnuck, unless you have a suggestion for where I can buy a new VC for a price proportional to the $620 Autozone charges for a rebuilt unit I have no need of your opinions either. As far as rebuilders getting "tons" of used VC's from wrecking yards, I don't buy it. I've been to several wrecking yards recently and haven't seen a single AMC in any of them.
Priya, I hope you will find the part for the right price.
Out of loyalty and courtesy to the others posting here, I will refrain from trying to help you further.
All the ladies here on the Eagle web are assertive, tough enough to crawl under a car, undismayed by bloody knuckles, and interested in off-roading. I think they're awesome even if they're stubborn and abit abrasive sometimes. I thought that quote was hilarious and effective, even if it was terse and inappropriate among a group of like-minded people trying to help each other. Realize from her perspective and mine your prior post sounded even more "know it all." It seemed to dismiss our efforts as pointless and imply that we were ignorant of how the real world works. You obviously didn't mean it to be viewed as such and I doubt she has any resentment against you now that you've confirmed that they do indeed rebuild them at a fraction of the cost of buying a new unit. That's a tangible answer to the question at hand. There is no reason for anyone to be angry or insulted, when we're really still just enthusiasts getting frustrated after countless google searches. Tis all good.
:occasion14:
First round is on me! Now kiss and make up!
Quote from: captspillane on October 25, 2011, 04:18:27 PM
The cheapest price I've seen while searching today for the more common 249 Grand Cherokee unit, which may or may not be interchangeable, is 400 dollars. .
Where did you find that VC for $400? It may make more sense for me to buy a VC for $400 than to spend money for shipping two transfer cases plus $620 and duty and brokerage fees on $620.
It is just basically a clutch pack.this is the internals of a vc.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc55/mudkicker715/2011-10-25153403.jpg)
My conclusion from all of this is that the viscous coupling is not worth replacing. It would actually be worth 400 dollars to me if I knew it wouldn't just wear out again in the future. I am going to use a 242 Jeep Cherokee case that has a "full time 4WD," a "Part time 4WD," and a Low Range. I'll leave it in "full time 4WD" most of the time because thats an open differential like the 1986 Eagles and many other light duty all wheel drive cars have. I've driven enough burned out viscous couplings to know that an Eagle can still get through most slippery surfaces without even missing it. I will have a "part time" 4wd mode that has a solid differential like the 231 for mud and slow speeds. If my lack of viscous coupling gets me stuck, the locked differential or low range will easily compensate. I won't often use the 2wd mode, but it might be useful for troubleshooting wierd noises and such.
I honestly think the open differentials front and rear will take up the slack from a solid transfer case in highway speeds on dry pavement, but its not recommended for good reasons. In Jeeps that reason is mostly because of the U joints creating a vibration from changes in resistance as they rotate, a problem eliminated by CV shafts, but there is also a degree of undue wear that we'll face too. I might put a 231 in an Eagle just to see if I can notice a tangible difference.
My Red SX4 already has a 242. I have yet to install a shift handle but I did like knowing that I could crawl under the car if i was desperate enough. It did get me unstuck once that way. The factory slip joint was compatible with the factory Eagle U joints. I did have to put a section of metal pipe to limit the internal driveshaft slip joint. I'll post pictures in my project thread. In the future I want to use a slip yoke eliminator because I hate the way fluid can pour out the back of the transfer case. I found this company:
http://www.driveshaftsuperstore.com/SYE_Kits_$375.htm (http://www.driveshaftsuperstore.com/SYE_Kits_$375.htm)
This link works now.
Captspillane, that link gives me a "Document not found" message.
I'm unclear, does a burned out viscous coupling mean there is no power supplied to the front wheels, or is it then like an open differential and the front wheels are driven unless there is a real big imbalance in traction? thereverandbilll gives me the impression that the front wheels are driven even when the viscous coupling isn't working.
I don't want a 2wd Eagle, the sole reason I bought an Eagle is because it was 4wd so if I need to spend $400 or even $620 to get the 4wd working I definitely want to do it.
I put "249 viscous coupler" into google's shopping tab and there is a whole list of prices and suppliers from $398 to $450. I didn't investigate further for final cost with shipping and such. I'll probably get a coupler along with a seal kit, like Quadratec offers together for $480 dollars. I call it a viscous coupling, but it seems its supposed to be called a "coupler." I'm actually looking for a 249 unit myself because I have a 249 that I was going to use to complement the limited slip rear in my 401 SX4. That's the only Eagle I'm definately going to replace the viscous coupling in. The 249 is much more common than even the 229, but you have to be careful with the earlier years that have an open differential in low range. I will confirm if the 249 is the same as a 119 coupler when I rebuild it this winter. I'm sure that they are the same internally and have the same fluid.
Thats a great picture of the internals, Mudkicker. The problem is actually the fluid tho. Its silicone based and designed to be more viscous after it gets hot. It doesn't get hot until one output yoke has spun faster than the other for a period of time, similar to the way a soft locker has to use the centrifugal force of the loose tire spinning to engage the locker. As I understand it, the reason they burn out is not because of the fluid leaking or those plates wearing, but instead the fluid itself loses its viscosity over time just like oil in your engine does. Replacing viscous couplings is a form of oil change to me and should be done at a set maintenance schedule.
It works as an open diff if burnt up. Vibration¿ Never felt that. I have dropped my rear driveshaft on a good vc and driven home on tje front at highway speed. A burnt vc would have left me stranded.
Not all of the link comes up blue. You have to copy paste it into the address bar for it to work. I'll modify my post to say that.
Yes, the all wheel drive functions beautifully without a viscous coupling. The only time you'll notice a difference is when you're stuck in mud with one wheel spinning away. It takes awhile for the fluid to heat up and start forcing the other yoke to move and get you unstuck. You won't notice it at all unless you're in an extreme situation.
Yes vibrations from the transfer case have nothing to do with the viscous coupling. Its very robust and only the fluid properties inside it change when they burn up. Yours probably isn't as healthy as it should be, Priya, but it might still get you home without a rear driveshaft too. If it was healthy you would feel a sizeable resistance keeping one output still while the other turned even while cold. When it heats up from slipping is when the fluid gets considerably more viscous and then locks the two together enough to propel the vehicle forward. Your tired old fluid might still be strong enough to move the car when hot even if it was weaker than it should be cold. Even if it wouldn't work without a rear driveshaft, thats not something to worry about really.
Driving without a rear driveshaft puts alot of strain on the viscous coupling and causes alot of undue wear on it. I wish there was a transfer case similar to the 242 with a viscous coupling in "full-time 4WD" and an option of "Part-time 4wd". That would let you bypass the viscous coupling and prevent damaging it if you have to drive that way. The 242 locks the outputs together and would work in that situation.
In another post about rear axles, there was several people who swore that their rear axles were limited slip units because they saw both tires spin together in a peel-out. An open differential naturally splits the engine torque 50/50 when the outputs have equal resistance. If all four wheels are on the ground and all four tires have equal resistance to spinning then all four wheels will recieve 25% of the applied engine torque, even if you have an open differential at the transfer case and in both axles. In practice the resistance of the brakes, bearings, wheel inertia, and U joints provide enough consistant resistance to always see a split in torque, even when one tire is in mud and another is on pavement. Thats especially true at speed because there is alot of inertia at each wheel. In practical application there is a limit to how much faster one tire can spin than the other. Usually the only way your all wheel drive won't function is if the car is totally stopped, a jack is inserted under one wheel, and a single tire is able to spin fast enough that the other tires don't need to.
If you are going to spend money on low speed traction in severely slippery conditions, the first step is actually to put a limited slip rear differential in. Then the second upgrade would be a low range transfer case. Third would be a new viscous coupling. Fourth would be a full time electric locker front and rear. Fifth would be a solid front axle. Sixth would be mud tires that vibrate terribly at highway speeds because of the obnoxious tread. Eventually you will have an awesome mud vehicle that your other Eagle can tow to an offroad park to play with. Point is that the viscous coupling is an upgrade equivalent to a limited slip rear differential that new Eagles enjoyed from the factory.
Ahhhhhhhhh. There I go screaming like a girl again.
I have run a 242 however it requires a new rear driveshaft to be made. I had a rear tire off the ground and walked out both with a 242 only in low range, and a 129 that has just over200k
Quote from: priya on October 25, 2011, 04:11:15 PM
Quote from: eaglefreek on October 25, 2011, 03:06:57 PM
"I have no need for further comments from you."
If only it were that easy. ;D You are posting on a public forum asking for advice... I promise I will never reply to another one of your posts and hope you will do the same for me.".
Yes, I asked for advice on where I could buy a Viscous coupling. You unfortunately didn't give any advice on that, instead choosing to go on and on about a peripheral issue, that's why I asked you not to comment unless you had something to say relative to what I asked. So don't get upset at me for having little time for your games.
Quote from: eaglefreek on October 25, 2011, 03:06:57 PM
I finally got an answer from Midwest. The guy I talked to says they have a company that rebuilds the VC for them.
So, here the situation was as I suggested and yet you are angry at me for suggesting that they weren't simply reusing used VCs.
Quote from: priya on October 24, 2011, 12:41:30 PM
I know Autozone sells a complete rebuilt unit for $620 with exchange but I'm thinking by the time I pay shipping for two transfer
Quote from: priya on October 24, 2011, 04:51:43 PM
Quote from: mudkicker715 on October 24, 2011, 04:36:11 PM
Same vc however. Its shared by a few cases
Are you sure? The link Jurjen posted shows the VC for the 229 at $750 whereas Autozone sells the complete rebuilt transfer case for $620 with core. In Jurjen's link the VC is about 1/3 the cost of the entire rebuild kit, on that basis the Autozone VC should be about $200.
I didn't pull the Autozone rebuilt transfer case out of thin air. You mentioned it twice before I even commented. I was just trying to rationalize how they can offer a rebuilt transfer case for less than the price of a new VC. I never said they were using old VC's, just a possibilty. I've been around alot of rebuilt junk from MAJOR supposedly REPUTABLE companies and was just trying to assist you in your decision. Good Luck.
Quote from: captspillane on October 25, 2011, 04:55:38 PM
I put "249 viscous coupler" into google's shopping tab and there is a whole list of prices and suppliers from $398
I don't see a shopping tab on google? I tried putting in 119 viscous coupler in Yahoo and google but it didn't show any for sale, just threads of people discussing them on forums such as this.
Quote from: priya on October 25, 2011, 06:02:41 PM
I don't see a shopping tab on google? I tried putting in 119 viscous coupler in Yahoo and google but it didn't show any for sale, just threads of people discussing them on forums such as this.
There is a gray bar at the top of the page with "you web immages video....." and to the right is "More" with a drop down. There will be a shopping selection. Very useful! Good luck!
Quote from: Hokie Eagle on October 25, 2011, 09:03:15 PM
There is a gray bar at the top of the page with "you web immages video....." and to the right is "More" with a drop down. There will be a shopping selection. Very useful! Good luck!
Okay, I see a black bar at the top of the page with "you web images video..." and "More". I click on "More" and I see "translate books finance scholar blogs youtube calendar photos documents sites groups reader" and then "Even more". I click on "even more" and there is another 30 or 40 options but none of them are "shopping".
You found the exact spot. "shopping" is the first word, directly above "translate books finance scholar." Every time I look for it I can't find it at first too because shopping hides in plain sight right at the top.
Quote from: captspillane on October 25, 2011, 11:33:26 PM
You found the exact spot. "shopping" is the first word, directly above "translate books finance scholar." Every time I look for it I can't find it at first too because shopping hides in plain sight right at the top.
When I click on it the first word is "translate", there is no "shopping".
I put "119 viscous coupler" in and got one gibberish return. I put in "229 Viscous Coupler" and got one return. It was a viscous coupler being sold for 1090 dollars. Wow. The cool thing is that it lists the coupler as being applicable for both the 229 and the 249. I put in "249 viscous coupler" and got 43 returns, with multiple sources for a viscous coupler between 398 and 460 dollars. Didn't someone just confirm that the 119 and 229 use the same viscous coupler? That would mean the 249 really is compatible as I suspected. I will confirm this when I get home.
I wondered if the 249 was the same or not.
119 and 229 have the same numbers on them
This was the only thing I was able to find in my Yahoo/google searches:
http://stecouplers.com/recharge/modules/cjaycontent/index.php?id=9
It suggests the 119 and 229 use the same viscious coupler but althought it appears they are selling them one cannot click on any of the items to order or find out pricing/info. Not sure what to make of that.
Quote from: captspillane on October 26, 2011, 01:14:05 AM
I put "119 viscous coupler" in and got one gibberish return. I put in "229 Viscous Coupler" and got one return. It was a viscous coupler being sold for 1090 dollars. Wow. The cool thing is that it lists the coupler as being applicable for both the 229 and the 249. I put in "249 viscous coupler" and got 43 returns, with multiple sources for a viscous coupler between 398 and 460 dollars.
I put "249 viscous coupler" in Yahoo and only found hits on ebay. There were quite a few on ebay and prices were between $250 and $330. It'd be nice to know for certain that this is the same as the 119. It's hard to know what to think as they're listed as NP249, 249, 249J and the ads say they're for "Jeep 97 and up", "jeep 92-96" and "Jeep 93-97". If the sellers don't agree on which Jeeps these fit I'm wondering how much one can assume about compatibility with an 81 Eagle.
I get nothing when I put "229 viscous coupler" in either Yahoo or Google.
I have a deep mistrust for computerized compatibility charts like Autozone and online retailers use to classify parts. They only know what the list tells them. I've found that there is extremely little "Eagle" only components, its just a matter of confirming what other Jeep parts work. CV Shafts and clutch master cylinders are the only ones I know of, and both of those are still a click away on rockauto. I also have a stockpile of 8 new clutch cylinders and countelss CV shafts to keep my Eagles rolling my whole life. Even a Jeep Cherokee gas tank will work with reasonable amount of modification.
I have a 249 and several Eagle transfer cases sitting by their lonesome in my garage. I'll confirm once I get home in ten days from now. You know I'm at work when you see lots of posts from me, since I vanish from the nest once I get home.
Quote from: captspillane on October 26, 2011, 01:16:13 PM
I have a 249 and several Eagle transfer cases sitting by their lonesome in my garage. I'll confirm once I get home in ten days from now.
Sounds good, can't wait to hear from you.
Last time home I was comparing a 231, the 242, and an Eagle transfer case. The rear case half had a different bolt pattern on one and the same pattern on the other, tho for the life of me I can't remember if it was the 242 or the 231 that matched the Eagle case. The 242 and 249 are externally identical. I've read that some Cherokee owner was using the rear half of an Eagle transfer case as a cheap shift yoke eliminator kit on a New Process low range case with the same case bolt pattern. I used to think it was a 231 but I'm pretty sure it was the 231 that was different. This link mentions it briefly as a combination of a 119 and a 229. I can't find the other reference. On my red SX4's NP242 I just unbolted the long Jeep front driveshaft yoke and bolted the original Eagle yoke in its place.
http://www.n0kfb.org/homepage/amc/tech/transfer_case/swap/
My dream is to use the rear half of a 119 case with stock Eagle output yoke, with a 249 viscous coupling, a 242 front half with both viscous full time and locked part time 4wd, and a high pinion planetary upgrade like my Rubicon NP241OR has. I'll be dismantling all of them in a row for comparison to see if thats possible. I might even go looking for a 229 because the curiousity is killing me. While I'm dreaming I hope I can convert it to the lower crawl ratio unique to the 241OR.
Quote from: captspillane on October 26, 2011, 01:51:54 PM
My dream is to use the rear half of a 119 case with stock Eagle output yoke, with a 249 viscous coupling, a 242 front half with both viscous full time and locked part time 4wd, and a high pinion planetary upgrade like my Rubicon NP241OR has. I'll be dismantling all of them in a row for comparison to see if thats possible. I might even go looking for a 229 because the curiousity is killing me. While I'm dreaming I hope I can convert it to the lower crawl ratio unique to the 241OR.
I only have a foggy idea what you're talking about, but sounds interesting.
Priya,
This might be a silly question, but have you tried any local transmission shops? If they can't source one, they might be able to instruct you on rebuilding it yourself or finding parts to rebuilt it with.
Quote from: rohnk on October 26, 2011, 02:22:28 PM
Priya,
This might be a silly question, but have you tried any local transmission shops? If they can't source one, they might be able to instruct you on rebuilding it yourself or finding parts to rebuilt it with.
To be honest, no I haven't, I just assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that they wouldn't have, or couldn't get one or that the price would be unreasonable. I asked my husband if he knew who in town would have or be able to get such a unit and he didn't have any idea off the top of his head so I didn't pursue it further.
I'm going to check into that now that you mention it.
Quote from: priya on October 25, 2011, 11:38:59 PM
Quote from: captspillane on October 25, 2011, 11:33:26 PM
You found the exact spot. "shopping" is the first word, directly above "translate books finance scholar." Every time I look for it I can't find it at first too because shopping hides in plain sight right at the top.
When I click on it the first word is "translate", there is no "shopping".
It has been in a different spot several times for me. Not that it matters too much for this since it doesn't find anything for a 129 coupler, but the address is google.com/prdhp . That is the product search that the "shopping" selection brings you to.
Quote from: Hokie Eagle on October 26, 2011, 02:45:15 PM
It has been in a different spot several times for me. Not that it matters too much for this since it doesn't find anything for a 129 coupler, but the address is google.com/prdhp . That is the product search that the "shopping" selection brings you to.
Thanks Hokie Eagle, that took me there. I put in 119 viscous coupler and it gave me 3 links for shopping, most of the links listed a wide array of products that had nothing to do with a transfer case and one link had one link that listed a 249 viscous coupler, but no 119.
Glad that worked out. I use the shopping on there quite a bit. It is pretty useful most of the time. Not that great with car parts though.
An easier URL to remember for google shopping is simply shopping.google.com (http://shopping.google.com)
Takes you to the same place.
I got home today and went right to work dismantling a 129, a 242, a 231, and a 249 Transfer case. I learned alot in a short amount of time. The 249 viscous coupling is drastically different than the 129 viscous coupling. This first picture shows the 129 on the right and 249 closer to the left, the second shows the front of the 129, and the third shows the front of the 249
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0650.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0648.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0649.jpg)
The 129 is the same as the 229 from the chain back, because the low range planetaries in the 229 are all located deep into the case near the transmission. The 129 input shaft goes through a differential before getting to the output shaft. This diffential is in the center of the viscous coupling. The clutch plates and silicone oil actually form a donut around the differential. The outside of the donut is splined into the rear driveshaft and the center of the donut is splined to the front driveshaft through the chain. The inner and outer parts of the viscous coupling are held together by a big snap ring, which I opened to reveal the plates inside.
In contrast, the 249 Viscous coupler does not have a differential in the center. The unit is welded together and does not seperate like the 129 does. In the first picture you will see the three components that make up the 129 viscous coupler next to the single black object that is the 249 viscous coupler.
The 129 has the widest chain. 129 chain is 1 7/8" wide, 249 is 1 1/4" wide, and the 242 is only 1" wide. The second picture shows the internals of the 129.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0677.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0673.jpg)
I also took apart a 242. I was rather impressed by it. Its alot more complex than the other two. It has an extra function than all the other Jeep transfer cases. It has both "4wd full time" and "4wd part time." This means that it can lock the two outputs together or leave them connected through an open differential. My dream transfer case would be a 242 with viscous coupling instead of an open differential in "4wd full time." I found that it is indeed possible to do, but it would require a custom output shaft. If I was willing to pay the machinist costs for that one part, all the rest would be factory parts from either a 242 or a 249. There are the right splines near the right places already on the 242 shaft for the 249 viscous coupler, but putting it there would bridge the front and rear driveshaft yokes in both "2wd" mode as "4wd full time." It turns out then that the reason New Venture didn't put a viscous coupling in the 242 is that it would eliminate the 2wd function.
First picture shows the inside of a 242, the second shows the inside of the 249, and the third shows the 249 with its viscous coupler in place.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0688.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0687.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0668.jpg)
The original question is about replacing 129 viscous couplers. I dislike them immensely now. When I opened this transfer case I found that all of the viscous silicone oil had leaked out of the coupler and filled up the case. This has the potential to damage the other parts of the case. I was surprised and even horrified to see how easily the viscous coupler came apart. It has one puny O ring underneath the snap ring with the task of keeping all the silicone fluid inside. The 249 unit in contrast is welded together and cannot be taken apart without destroying it.
Its my steadfast opinion now that the 129 should be replaced by a 249 or 242. The 249 viscous coupler is much more reliable and robust, although it does not have an open differential incorporated into it.
This picture shows a 129 the front driveshaft yoke of an Eagle next to the front yoke from the 242 and the 249. They're different but directly interchangeable.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/DSCF0680.jpg)
My head is spinning. Captspillane earlier it was suggested the 119 and 229 VC's are the same, are they also the same as an NP249? Can I get an NP249 VC and put it in my 119 transfer case with no modifications? There are a number of NP249 VCs available on ebay for reasonable prices.
I am also confused by several people telling me I will still have power to both front and rear wheels if the viscous coupling is bad. According to this description:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential5.htm
of a VC posted on the nest the only thing connecting the front wheels to the rear wheels is the VC and to me that means of the VC is bad there can be no power to the front wheels. How do the front wheels get power if the 119 VC is bad?
Do you know what year the 249 is? There were two distinct 249s, one that locked in low and another that didn't, and I've been wondering if the earlier one had an open differential. I do know some of the late 249s had "249OD" stamped on them.
It's also nice to see the 242 and 249 have fixed rear yokes. I believe the change was in 1995 to 1996.
Quote from: priya on November 04, 2011, 11:25:37 AM
My head is spinning. Captspillane earlier it was suggested the 119 and 229 VC's are the same, are they also the same as an NP249? Can I get an NP249 VC and put it in my 119 transfer case with no modifications? There are a number of NP249 VCs available on ebay for reasonable prices.
I am also confused by several people telling me I will still have power to both front and rear wheels if the viscous coupling is bad. According to this description:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential5.htm
of a VC posted on the nest the only thing connecting the front wheels to the rear wheels is the VC and to me that means of the VC is bad there can be no power to the front wheels. How do the front wheels get power if the 119 VC is bad?
Based on the description that Captspillane gave, the 249 VC will not work in the 119. Also, with the 119, the front and rear wheels are connected through an open diff, but if the speed difference is too great, the VC heats up locking the front and rear together instead. In contrast, in the 249, there is no open differential connected to the VC, so if the VC goes bad in a 249, you will not have any power to the front wheels.
Thanks Draekon, I understand that. The viscous coupling is basically performing the same function as a clutch pack in a limited slip rear end differntial.
I'm still wondering about the 249 working in the 119 as Captspillane talked about it not being compatible with the 129 and never mentioned the 119.
The first digit is supposed to mean 1 for single speed, and 2 for dual speed (meaning it has a low range). The second digit was supposed to mean the number of modes it had, but then it changed to mean the strength rating. The 231 for instance was intended for Jeeps, while the 242 was intended for militay Humvees and full size trucks.
A 119 became a 129 just by making slight changes to add a 2wd mode. The case and viscous coupler is identical. The 129 had a low range planetary added near the input shaft to become a 229. It also happens that the rear case extension is clocked differently, but all of the castings and the majority of the internals are identical. The 128 uses the same open differential and other internals as the 129, except it doesn't have the viscous coupler around it. It and the 228 are also nearly identical. In other words the 119, 129, 229, 128, and 228 are pretty much identical.
Likewise the 242, 247, and 249 are nearly identical. The 242 has a crazy planetary in it but shares the same case castings and oil pump as the 249 with a shorter case extension. The 247 is essentiall a 249 with a progressive coupler instead of a viscous coupler. New Process based the progressive coupler design directly on limited slip differential designs. It does the same job as a viscous coupler, just superior in longevity, response, and reliabilty.
The 249 is a completely different Viscous Coupler than the old style used in the 119, 129, and 229. It better in alot of ways, but if it fails it doesn't have anything else. The 119 is completely different, it will continue to function just fine without it.
Thanks for clarifying Captspillane.
Quote from: Eagle1984 on June 04, 2012, 09:23:36 PM
What do you guys think of this site. They mentioned they sell trans rebuilds.
http://www.midwesttrans.com/prodlk.html
Thanks to this post by Eagle1984 I found midwesttrans.com sells a rebuilt viscous coupler for my NP119 for $345, I'm going to order one tomorrow. I contacted drivetrain.com a couple of times but they couldn't be bothered to respond to my inquiry. Thanks Eagle1984, eggs to you.
why not pull a tcase out of a Cherokee
'84 to '86 and 4 cyl with 3 speed automatics had NP229s and NP228s till '89.
Quote from: max98059 on June 15, 2012, 12:45:58 AM
why not pull a tcase out of a Cherokee
I don't think there was an NP119 in a Cherokee but I certainly could be wrong. As well, I want to know for sure I've got a good viscous coupling rather than buying a questionable used one.
Quote from: priya on June 15, 2012, 12:52:20 PM
Quote from: max98059 on June 15, 2012, 12:45:58 AM
why not pull a tcase out of a Cherokee
I don't think there was an NP119 in a Cherokee but I certainly could be wrong. As well, I want to know for sure I've got a good viscous coupling rather than buying a questionable used one.
They did use NP229 and NP228 till late '86 which will bolt in place of the NP119, 129 or 128.
I've already ordered and paid for a viscous coupling and bearing kit for NP119.
They all use the same viscous coupler and bearings. The 119 is a 229 with the low range junk omitted in the forward part of the case. From the front edge of the chain rearward everything is exactly the same (An exception being the same tailshaft casting is drilled and clocked differently). Its even relatively simple to add a low range to a 119 if you have the important parts from a donor 229. Likewise its just as simple to make a 119 into 129. The difference between those two is also located forward of the chain where the low range hardware should be.
The SX4 prototype actually had a 229 in it from the designers. The floor pan was designed to accept the same floor shifter as a J truck. I'd love to see someone replicate that intended design in an Eagle.
That's how Cam Brown did his.
Quote from: mudkicker715 on October 24, 2011, 06:07:53 PM
Here is an idea of what i'm doing tomorrow.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc55/mudkicker715/2011-10-24162307.jpg)
I'm going to be so happy when I reach that point with a NP229 next month.
It has been finished for a long time
http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36885.0
Quote from: priya on June 18, 2012, 04:15:56 PM
I've already ordered and paid for a viscous coupling and bearing kit for NP119.
I thought all of the SX4s were select drive although I know that the all wheel drive 119 carried over into early 81 Eagle models.
No, not all of the SX4s were select drive. I've got two that are not.
Select drive was not offered in early '81. AMC really did not like federally mandated model years. They really wanted their model years to follow the calendar year. The Select Shift was a mid-year model addition (around January). Roy Lunn was adamantly against select shift. The EPA and upper management prevailed.
After rereading this entire post I have come to the conclusion that some of you are perverbial rocket scientists of transmissions and i must be one of those part changer mechanics that someone mentioned. So now that Priya has sourced a VC I just want to know if i should just assume that my 1980 119 needs a new VC due to age although it only has 56,000 on the clock and has never seen snow or mud use? I will do that test that mudkicker mentioned with the torque wrench anyway. I checked that Midwesttransmission site and I only found the entire NP 119
Quote from: milliard431 on November 10, 2012, 03:05:16 PM
After rereading this entire post I have come to the conclusion that some of you are perverbial rocket scientists of transmissions and i must be one of those part changer mechanics that someone mentioned. So now that Priya has sourced a VC I just want to know if i should just assume that my 1980 119 needs a new VC due to age although it only has 56,000 on the clock and has never seen snow or mud use? I will do that test that mudkicker mentioned with the torque wrench anyway. I checked that Midwesttransmission site and I only found the entire NP 119
I don't think it would be a good idea to assume, do the test and make your decision based on that.
The VC is a go or no go item. If it doesn't work, the Eagle won't drive if you have NP119. You could also swap to a NP219 and get low range and E-drive as an added benefit.
Quote from: carnuck on November 12, 2012, 03:17:22 PM
The VC is a go or no go item. If it doesn't work, the Eagle won't drive if you have NP119.
That's not true. The car drives perfectly fine with a bad Viscous Coupler. There is no noticeable difference. The viscous coupler doesn't do much at all when the car is moving because you have a natural torque split between wheels without it thanks to approximately equal wheel resistance.
It has less effect on the performance of the car than a positraction rear. Most people will never have a problem without one.
Make sure you change your fluid. If the viscous coupler gasket fails it empties a sandy thick fluid into the case and it can cause damage to it by displacing the oil where it is needed.
I know when the VC goes out in a GW, they stop moving in 4x4 except in low range
Yes, that is true. The Grand Cherokee's do not have the same transfer case. They use the NP249 until it was made obsolete by the NP247. The 249 viscous coupler is a welded assembly about 4 inches tall and 6 inches in diameter that directly connects the front input shaft to the rear output shaft. Without it present or with it burned out the car won't move.
The 229, 119, and 129 transfer cases all share a different design. The viscous coupler forms a donut around an open differential. They suck because they rely on a single O-ring to retain their fluid and they do not last as long as the 249 viscous coupler. They are awesome in the sense that once your viscous coupler fails the open differential still connects the rear output in exactly the same fashion most all wheel drive transfer cases operate.
Grand Wagoneer does NOT use NV249. You're thinking Grand Cherokee. ;^)
NP228 has just a differential inside. No VC.
D0 you guys recommend using synthetics in the transfer case and rear end on these older cars? I know synthetic motor oil can leak past high mileage newer engines and older rear mains. That is always a popular debate, right up there with ZDDP.
I've beet putting synthetic in diffs. Mobile 75w90. It's a bit thinner when cold and should save a little power.
For the transfer case I've just used plain Dextron III, I'm worried the newer synthetic ATF being thinner could cause problems with the way it's made. ATF+4 and Dextron VI are thinner and not recommended for manual transmissions where Dextron III and prior was originally speced.
There are other options I've never investigated.
Go yo WWW.MOTORKOTE.com, fantastic stuff, expensive, but good. Alittle goes a long way. I used it in my SX-4 when I had it and now in my Cherokee and PT lawnmowers. TRY IY you may like it. Wal-Mart should have it too!!