I've pulled back the driver side floor carpeting to find a new amount of rust. A screw driver went through in two areas near the frame rail. Would it be alright to use a wire brush to get up the loose stuff and then paint it with Penetrol to stop it from getting any worse before welding is done?
I'd say that's a good idea. You'll have to remove any coating before welding but that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Then give it a week to dry, then use generous amounts of construction adhesive and bolts to put in a new piece of sheet metal (seals holes) until you can do welding. Just as easy to do the whole floor as it is to do a spot where the hole is.
Can you give me an example of a good construction adhesive? I'm not familiar with that. I used a bit of purple power de-ruster on the lighter spots. It converted it to a black, primer-ready surface. I almost don't buy it as being "rust-free" though.
I use LePage "PL Premium" Construction Adhesive.
Polyurethane based.
Do not use "no more nails" or similar products (haven't tried it, but everyone selling it says it is no where near as strong as the PL).
Two street signs go missing and another rusted floor is repaired.... hahahaha
Overkill.
One street sign is plenty thick. Something thin for the other side if the existing floor is too rusted to bolt to.
photos
http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36571.msg294505#msg294505
Good post. Friend of mine welded in new metal. I then cleaned it, dried it and primed with epoxy primer.
Hilarious! Gronk had it right. Why fix one floor when you can fix both? That's the reason for a second street sign to go missing. Of course if you have one Eagle, the addiction is just starting. The second Eagle will follow her home soon, so that one will want the same love too. Soon you'll have a clear shot to work each day without any stop signs to hamper the journey.
I replaced my drivers side front floor on my wagon. I wanted to do a simple fix and ended up cutting up the parts car to get a solid floor. On any steel repair like that make sure after the piece is welded in to use seam sealer on the front and back along all the seams. This keeps the moisture out. Befor I applied my seam sealer I used POR 15 on all the metal pieces after scraping off the factor sound deadener. My goal is to do this once only.
Yep, I bought a can of brushable seam sealer from Eastwood.
Quote from: mach1mustang351 on December 27, 2011, 01:43:02 AM
I replaced my drivers side front floor on my wagon. I wanted to do a simple fix and ended up cutting up the parts car to get a solid floor. On any steel repair like that make sure after the piece is welded in to use seam sealer on the front and back along all the seams. This keeps the moisture out. Befor I applied my seam sealer I used POR 15 on all the metal pieces after scraping off the factor sound deadener. My goal is to do this once only.
Everywhere I used seam sealer or POR-15 on steel has failed. But we get a lot of salt on streets here.
For seam sealer, I use the PL construction adhesive.
I used to use epoxy primer. Now I use Penetrol or heat-treated engine enamel. They work so well, I haven't bothered with epoxy primer since, except for outer body work where I like an epoxy flash coat to seal it before colour.
Then Waxoyl Hard Body on the underside, Waxoyl Rust Inhibitor on the inside.
Quote from: Canoe on March 26, 2012, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: mach1mustang351 on December 27, 2011, 01:43:02 AM
I replaced my drivers side front floor on my wagon. I wanted to do a simple fix and ended up cutting up the parts car to get a solid floor. On any steel repair like that make sure after the piece is welded in to use seam sealer on the front and back along all the seams. This keeps the moisture out. Befor I applied my seam sealer I used POR 15 on all the metal pieces after scraping off the factor sound deadener. My goal is to do this once only.
Everywhere I used seam sealer or POR-15 on steel has failed. But we get a lot of salt on streets here.
For seam sealer, I use the PL construction adhesive.
I used to use epoxy primer. Now I use Penetrol or heat-treated engine enamel. They work so well, I haven't bothered with epoxy primer since, except for outer body work where I like an epoxy flash coat to seal it before colour.
Then Waxoyl Hard Body on the underside, Waxoyl Rust Inhibitor on the inside.
I guess I did it wrong. I'll let you all know in a couple years.
Quote from: mach1mustang351 on March 26, 2012, 10:41:07 PM
I guess I did it wrong. I'll let you all know in a couple years.
Not wrong. Just POR-15 is so expensive for something that fails so often, and when applied according to their fine print with proper degreasing (they make an excellent degreaser, but expensive).
I've got a friend that's really ticked he paid so much and spent his time to do the whole frame of his Yukon, only to have it peel off in less than a year.
Rusts through the paint, creeps under the paint, peels off; not at all like their claims.
I don't want to revisit repairs. The only thing I'll still use POR-15 for is on aluminum parts. When those are out of the sun, so far they usually stay protected and looking great.
As others have success with it, the only thing I can come up with to explain the consistent failure is the winters here have a lot of freeze/thaw, wet, and salt on the roads. Grasping at straws, but unwilling to waste my time using it.
Ideally you would put "Rust Converter" on first, then primer, then high build primer for paint volume, then the actual paint in three coats. POR-15 replaces the Rust Converter and the primer and the high build primer and the first coat of paint, all applied at once. When looked at it that way it saves time and is cheaper. Then you put two coats of real paint over top of it to seal it, protect it, and provide color. On frames and underside you should use heavy abrasion resistant chassis paint and/or rubberized undercoating to further protect it.
If you use POR-15 by itself it sucks. Its not much better than Rustoleum. I'm not at all suprised the Yukon frame peeled quickly.
I use the Eastwood "Rust Encapsulator" which is the generic brand of POR-15. They come right out and say that its not intended for frame paint. Its a glorified primer that happens to look okay by itself. They recommend removing every little bit of rust you can, then using "Prep" which is a strong degreaser, light etcher, and rust converter rolled into one, then putting the "Rust Encapsulator" on, then putting their "Extreme Chassis Paint" over top of it for protection from abrasion and salt and such. That's exactly what's being done to my cars.
Quote from: captspillane on March 27, 2012, 02:19:23 PM
Ideally you would put "Rust Converter" on first, then primer, then high build primer for paint volume,...On frames and underside you should use heavy abrasion resistant chassis paint and/or rubberized undercoating to further protect it....
...They recommend removing every little bit of rust you can, then using "Prep" which is a strong degreaser, light etcher, and rust converter rolled into one, then putting the "Rust Encapsulator" on, then putting their "Extreme Chassis Paint" over top of it for protection from abrasion and salt and such. That's exactly what's being done to my cars.
Far easier is Penetrol. Ideal for underside use and floor pans. Removed dirt and rust scale, leave light rust in place. The linseed oil in it cures into larger polymers, with unbonded ends taking up oxygen to complete polymers of linoyxin, both sealing and preventing that O2 from being available for rusting. Top coat with your choice. It just happens to be cheap too (Lowe's, under $10 a can). Apply by brush, roller, cloth, spray, even those stupid squeeze pump bottles (but you'll use more material than necessary with those). Just let cure before top coating.
People keep wondering why they have to revisit welded in floor pans, but the metal they're welding to is just too thin: I've yet to see a budget welder pump an inert gas through the rockers and across the back-side of where they're welding to prevent O2 getting into the metal and to cool it so the good metal just beyond the weld doesn't become brittle. Don't, and the hard weld acts like a can opener to the brittle. Every failure I've seen is this or O2 in the weld or simple rust out.
Quote from: Canoe on March 26, 2012, 01:01:33 PM
I used to use epoxy primer. Now I use Penetrol or heat-treated engine enamel. They work so well, I haven't bothered with epoxy primer since, except for outer body work where I like an epoxy flash coat to seal it before colour.
Then Waxoyl Hard Body on the underside, Waxoyl Rust Inhibitor on the inside.
This is something I will check out, since I've never worked with any of these materials. I've started with my current system on one SX4 and I could do the second SX4 with the other for long term comparison.
You mentioned that you use heat treated engine enamel. Are you refering to a "poor man's powder coat" where small items are put in an oven with ceramic based exhaust pipe paint and then cured in the oven before installation?
I've never had an exhaust paint last more than a few months, but I've also never bothered to prep properly. This is something I also need to look into. There is another thread recently talking about some exhaust piper inner and outer paints that people have had good success with.
Quote from: Canoe on March 27, 2012, 02:34:08 PM
Quote from: captspillane on March 27, 2012, 02:19:23 PM
Ideally you would put "Rust Converter" on first, then primer, then high build primer for paint volume,...On frames and underside you should use heavy abrasion resistant chassis paint and/or rubberized undercoating to further protect it....
...They recommend removing every little bit of rust you can, then using "Prep" which is a strong degreaser, light etcher, and rust converter rolled into one, then putting the "Rust Encapsulator" on, then putting their "Extreme Chassis Paint" over top of it for protection from abrasion and salt and such. That's exactly what's being done to my cars.
Far easier is Penetrol. Ideal for underside use and floor pans. Removed dirt and rust scale, leave light rust in place. The linseed oil in it cures into larger polymers, with unbonded ends taking up oxygen to complete polymers of linoyxin, both sealing and preventing that O2 from being available for rusting. Top coat with your choice. It just happens to be cheap too (Lowe's, under $10 a can). Apply by brush, roller, cloth, spray, even those stupid squeeze pump bottles (but you'll use more material than necessary with those). Just let cure before top coating.
People keep wondering why they have to revisit welded in floor pans, but the metal they're welding to is just too thin: I've yet to see a budget welder pump an inert gas through the rockers and across the back-side of where they're welding to prevent O2 getting into the metal and to cool it so the good metal just beyond the weld doesn't become brittle. Don't, and the hard weld acts like a can opener to the brittle. Every failure I've seen is this or O2 in the weld or simple rust out.
I'm not saying that you are wrong i like your idea, its good, but i use stargon its argon and co2 mix and i have never had a problem with any replacement panels that i have welded in.
I'm buyig an Eastwood TIG welder this week. TIG will give me more heat control to prevent distortion and brittle issues. That's why TIG can be used to weld tin foil, it is very controlled and precise to prevent blowouts.
I took Wray Schelin's "coach-making" class advertised on the evil bay. It was beyond incredible. It was legendary. We made very complex fenders from sheet metal in three days. There I've personally made butt welds on fender halves that totally vanished with minimal grinding and english wheel treatment.
Quote from: captspillane on March 27, 2012, 03:13:47 PM
I'm buyig an Eastwood TIG welder this week. TIG will give me more heat control to prevent distortion and brittle issues. That's why TIG can be used to weld tin foil, it is very controlled and precise to prevent blowouts.
I took Wray Schelin's "coach-making" class advertised on the evil bay. It was beyond incredible. It was legendary. We made very complex fenders from sheet metal in three days. There I've personally made butt welds on fender halves that totally vanished with minimal grinding and english wheel treatment.
Ya tig is awsome! A nice tig welder is on the wish list. whats the deal with that class that class?
I don't anything like that but one think I keep seeing on the POR 15 is frame and under car use. They have several different formulas. They have a POR 15 and a Chassis coat. They are NOT the same thing. Proper product per application yields the best results in any type of situation.
Quote from: captspillane on March 27, 2012, 02:54:50 PM
This is something I will check out, since I've never worked with any of these materials. I've started with my current system on one SX4 and I could do the second SX4 with the other for long term comparison.
Test this. Take a piece of scrap that's rusting. Paint with penetrol. When cured, topcoat half. When topcoat dry, put your undercoating on half the topcoat and half the only penetrol. Leave out in the elements.
Quote from: captspillane on March 27, 2012, 02:54:50 PM
You mentioned that you use heat treated engine enamel. Are you refering to a "poor man's powder coat" where small items are put in an oven with ceramic based exhaust pipe paint and then cured in the oven before installation?
I've never had an exhaust paint last more than a few months, but I've also never bothered to prep properly...
Exactly. And with proper prep (all rust & grease removed), but no primer.
I've got to run right now, but I posted before about doing my front springs and other parts that way.
Quote from: standup650 on March 27, 2012, 03:01:06 PM
Quote from: Canoe on March 27, 2012, 02:34:08 PM... People keep wondering why they have to revisit welded in floor pans, but the metal they're welding to is just too thin: I've yet to see a budget welder pump an inert gas through the rockers and across the back-side of where they're welding to prevent O2 getting into the metal and to cool it so the good metal just beyond the weld doesn't become brittle. Don't, and the hard weld acts like a can opener to the brittle. Every failure I've seen is this or O2 in the weld or simple rust out.
I'm not saying that you are wrong i like your idea, its good, but i use stargon its argon and co2 mix and i have never had a problem with any replacement panels that i have welded in.
The problem is overheating, as when welding to thin metals. Your gas protects the weld, but not the backside(s). The backside won't rust as fast as an O2 contaminated weld, but it gets second place.
And few welders will temper the brittle zone after welding. TIG's great for preventing the gross overheating, but with any melted pool, there's always that little zone between the weld pool's surrounding metal and untouched metal where the temper's been changed. It's fine if it's going to sit in a showroom, but if it's going to get the loads of flex from potholes and anything other than pavement... then the flex moves the hard weld against the next-to-it brittle zone - and fracture.
Aircraft and bicycle frames is where this issue is more known.
Explains all the floor pan repair failures I've seen, and done back in the day.
Quote from: mach1mustang351 on March 27, 2012, 10:58:04 PM
I don't anything like that but one think I keep seeing on the POR 15 is frame and under car use. They have several different formulas. They have a POR 15 and a Chassis coat. They are NOT the same thing. Proper product per application yields the best results in any type of situation.
Yup.
All the complaints and they had to change their advertising. Frame use was the major push and the majority use of their customer endorsements. Last I checked a few years ago, they still had their requirement to degrease hidden in the fine print; their major competitor at the time had it up front.
Although coloured, POR-15 is not a top coat - surface discolours in UV.
Quote from: captspillane on March 27, 2012, 02:54:50 PM
You mentioned that you use heat treated engine enamel. Are you refering to a "poor man's powder coat" where small items are put in an oven with ceramic based exhaust pipe paint and then cured in the oven before installation?
One major change. I've
not used exhaust or manifold paint. I use the
baked engine enamel. And without primer.
Here's where I use evapo-rust (expensive) as part of the prep, then engine enamel.
If you bake indoors in your kitchen oven, use parchment paper and NOT wax paper to set the parts on.
Like the original source, I've also used a torch to bake some parts. And some while they're in place, or to touch up dings, or a quick coat to a new part before it goes in (latest, steering high-pressure line fittings) In place, watch your temp - not the most complete bake as in an oven or BBQ, but it helps set the paint.
http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36270.0