Diesel/Gas Electric Eagle - would it fly?

[Mechanic]

Just my 2cents. wanting to go into the Field(building alternative fuel vehicles, electric, and hybrid vehicles) the weight would actually be Increased by the combined weight of the electric motors, batteries, and generator.

Now, having not read the full thread yet I'm not quite sure what you have come up with but I have been thinking along the same lines only not quite as extravagant, just removing the tranny t-case, engine(replaced with a smaller 4 Cly generator) and changing out the Axel ratios for whatever is best and just use the old drivetrain.

[Whuntmore]

I've actually considered this, and done a little research on the idea.

A small gas generator should work (and having compatible voltages).   This is the thing that puts me off.  There is NO reason that you cannot substitute some kind of small gas generator instead of all those batteries.

Probably a 3500-5000 watt generator (Even honda sells them), and the same for the electric motor(s).   Of course you'll need a converter/step up, or step down transformer, and some other electrical workings.  but it should weigh less then all those freaking batteries.

The other thing that puts me off, is the fact 90% of the fuel burnt is wasted in heat.  10% is propulsion.  Now, a few years ago, I saw an article in Discover mag, and someone had invented a diode (transister, whatever) that when heated, produces electricity (a voltage, whatever).  Now, why can't someone mass produce these suckers, and have a backup electric motor, and cover any components that produce heat (the generator) with these diodes?

Regardless, the stuff is out there to have a car that will go hundreds of miles to the gallon (considering that, for example, those honda generators will run for like 10-11.5 hours on a tiny tank of gas.

I remember watching on tv, back during the first oil crisis (late 70's) that these university students had taken something like a british MG, (or something like that), and made it run 100 mpg.  Now where is that?

It's the car companies that are in bed with the oil companies that won't allow it...  or offer it.

If any of you ever do this, best thing to do is to keep quiet about it.  Someone will try to shut you down.  back in the 80's, there was a guy who had an old 79 volvo, and made his own moonshine, and ran the car on it.  The govt gave him such a hard time (all the redtape and such) that they tied him down in legal costs, permits, and bylaw infractions, that he was forced to give up.  (Harrowsmith article - The New Moonshiners)

http://evhelp.com/index.htm

[83Eagle!]

Try this link.  Have a look.  Just drop an eagle body on it.  Probably cheaper than all the mods required to make a stock Eagle a hybrid.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/02/trexa-electric-car-platform-will-cost-upwards-of-us15999/

Cheers

That would be an interesting platform. Can anyone photoshop that with an Eagle body on it?

[Bird-o-Prey]

Well, as far as the small gas powered motor running the generator...that is what the Chevy Volt is about.  The batteries are there for short commutes, like a quick trip to the grocery store or somesuch.  They only have a 40 to 50 km range.  Beyond that, the single cylinder gas generator kicks in to supply power to the electrics as well as recharge the batteries.  When on the highway, the batteries are there for a boost of power to pass another car or go up a steep hill.  With the generator running, the range of the Volt is extended to +/- 1000km.  I believe that the gas tank is very small, maybe something like 35 litres (ish).  I think it also has regenerative braking to help charge the batteries.  Here is a link I just found, if anyone is interested. 

http://gm-volt.com/chevy-volt-faqs/

However, I don't think that the Eagle is really well suited for this kind of conversion.  I think you would be better off trying to convert the gas engine to run on 100% Ethanol or Methane or some other source of cleaner fuel.  Even trying to convert it to run on Hydrogen, which is abundant and super clean and relatively easy to refine, would be less costly than trying to re-invent the wheel.

A great quote "Internal combustion baby...accept no substitutes!"

Just my 2 cents.

[rollguy]

I often wondered why they (some car manufacturer) don't make a Diesel/electric hybrid?   The Prius gets (on average) 41 MPG.  The VW TDI (Jetta) gets an average 45 MPG.   If that little Diesel engine (would not even need to be a turbo) was designed to work with an electric motor like the prius, it would probably get around 75 MPG!    I have also wondered if some aftermarket company makes a retrofit electric drive setup for most any vehicle.  A 4X4 electric Eagle would be awesome!  Better yet, a Diesel/electric hybrid Eagle!!!

[83Eagle!]

I often wondered why they (some car manufacturer) don't make a Diesel/electric hybrid?   The Prius gets (on average) 41 MPG.  The VW TDI (Jetta) gets an average 45 MPG.   If that little Diesel engine (would not even need to be a turbo) was designed to work with an electric motor like the prius, it would probably get around 75 MPG!    I have also wondered if some aftermarket company makes a retrofit electric drive setup for most any vehicle.  A 4X4 electric Eagle would be awesome!  Better yet, a Diesel/electric hybrid Eagle!!!

I have been wondering the same thing since I saw the first reports of the mileage on the TDI Jettas.

[Jurjen]

I'm thinking about rear wheel drive cars with diesel engines.
The BMW 525 tdi/530d I-6 springs to mind, that really would suit the Eagle.
In Europe we could buy the Chrysler 300C whith a Mercedes diesel that really suits the car very well.
It is a 218 HP 3.0 V6 with 500Nm of torque, also a very good combination.
About the electrics, I do know that they both have an alternator.....

[Canoe]

A few years back, BMW had a diesel electric passenger van/SUV type. Engine was east-west tucked up where our spare wheel and gas tanks are. Don't know if it went to market.

Diesel electric allows you to remove the heavy Eagle engine & drive train. Only the suspension and rear axle remains. Drive the each front wheel with their own electric motor. Rear: electric motor on the Diff or may need the rear drive shaft and drive it from the chassis.

Diesel electric means you don't need tons of heavy batteries: batteries are not for general use, but for that boost use detailed above; ultra capacitor may do a better job (weight and current acceptance/delivery) but cost & availability are issues.

The "gas" pedal isn't controlling the engine RPM. It runs constant, with the pedal taking what the electric engines need to drive the car and the excess electricity dumped into a reserve of batteries and/or ultra capacitors. For up-hill runs, the engine RPM can go up a bit from optimum efficiency, and power now taken from the reserve.

Diesel engine can be run on biodiesel (which, although requires care & skill, can be DIY). Can also be run directly on SVO (straight vegetable oil), although this requires heated fuel lines & fuel pickup in the tank. SVO actually runs better on preheated SVO, like that obtained from restaurant fryers and then filtered (often while heated slightly) to remove food debris and that of the SVO that was easily polymerized by the fryer temperatures. Virgin SVO has the easily polymerized oil component that may polymerize within your heated lines, so virgin SVO is often preheated and filtered for reliability, like the free fryer SVO, but the virgin SVO has to be heated quite high (350F to 400F - and NOT OVER THAT) so there's an additional expense for virgin. Corn oil does not work well. Soy works better. Canola seems to work best. You don't want free used fryer shortening, but the liquid at room temperature oil.

Also, both gas and diesel engines can be converted to recycle the exhaust gas heat through a nickel-steel-solid-core heat exchanger, preheating a fuel|water-vapor mixture of hydrocarbon (alcohol is popular) & water that is input to heat exchanger and then the engine intake. Engine runs on its conventional fuel system until it heats up, then the conventional fuel delivery system runs at idle-equivalent fuel input, with the Pantone carb fuel/air mixture input through the engine intake. Reports from people who have done this report that the final exhaust gas temperature is greatly reduced, supporting that there is no magic happening, just making the engine more efficient. Last I looked, no one had figured out why it worked; theory was that the free exhaust heat was breaking down the hydrocarbon fuel into smaller hydrocarbons that when combusted within the engine, gave up more energy than the original more complex hydro carbon, thereby recycling part of the waste engine heat back into combustion heat within the engine. Search for Pantone engine. Reportedly works best with constant RPM engines, like generators and tractors, although one (I think) idiot in France posted images of his converted helicopter, careful to leave out the registration numbers. Doesn't work for injection engines that pre-fire within the intake cycle to warm the cylinder, as this ignites the Pantone sourced fuel/air mixture too far before TDC and you lose power.

The 258 would be a good candidate. Just enough room to fit the heat exchanger between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipes. Pantone carb should be able to feed into the intake where the intake flow heater is - not that I've thought about doing this...  ;-)

[rollguy]

Also, both gas and diesel engines can be converted to recycle the exhaust gas heat through a nickel-steel-solid-core heat exchanger, preheating a fuel|water-vapor mixture of hydrocarbon (alcohol is popular) & water that is input to heat exchanger and then the engine intake. Engine runs on its conventional fuel system until it heats up, then the conventional fuel delivery system runs at idle-equivalent fuel input, with the Pantone carb fuel/air mixture input through the engine intake. Reports from people who have done this report that the final exhaust gas temperature is greatly reduced, supporting that there is no magic happening, just making the engine more efficient. Last I looked, no one had figured out why it worked; theory was that the free exhaust heat was breaking down the hydrocarbon fuel into smaller hydrocarbons that when combusted within the engine, gave up more energy than the original more complex hydro carbon, thereby recycling part of the waste engine heat back into combustion heat within the engine. Search for Pantone engine. Reportedly works best with constant RPM engines, like generators and tractors, although one (I think) idiot in France posted images of his converted helicopter, careful to leave out the registration numbers. Doesn't work for injection engines that pre-fire within the intake cycle to warm the cylinder, as this ignites the Pantone sourced fuel/air mixture too far before TDC and you lose power.

The 258 would be a good candidate. Just enough room to fit the heat exchanger between the exhaust manifold and the exhaust pipes. Pantone carb should be able to feed into the intake where the intake flow heater is - not that I've thought about doing this...  ;-)

Cool info!  EGG to you!

[Jurjen]

We could make a nice hybrid from the Eagle.
Put the BMW inline-6 diesel in, to drive the rear wheels, this will make it go like a stabbed rat already.
Take the transfer case off and put a 40kW motor on the front drive shaft and some nice LiOn batteries in the secret compartment in the back.
The extra 40kW on the front wheels will make it go like a drag racer.
Normally the car will do regenerative braking on the front wheels.
Only extreme braking will operate the disc brakes.
Should be able to 50 MPG?

[MortenB]

I have also thought much about a conversion to electric drive.   I have an electric drivetrain in a Blazer that I plan to put into something else when I free up some time.   One problem with the Eagles is that they are quite heavy, though not as heavy as the Blazer, and that they have lack of space for batteries.   Lithium batteries is the only way to go, as they take much less space and weigh much less than lead batteries.   Some batteries would go above the motor, and some under the trunk area (the floor back there would have to be cut out and a battery box built in the space of that and of the gas tank.   

There are a couple of conversions of Jeeps to be found online, but both of the ones I've seen were done with lead batteries resulting in poor performance and poor range.

I have lithium batteries in my '96 VW Golf EV, and there is a world of difference between the lithium and the original sealed lead batteries.

The batteries in the Blazer are on their last year or two, perhaps after they are no good I will go ahead with a conversion.   Either an Eagle or an older Mustang, or my '64 Rambler.   

[MaskNMI]

lol you guys are crazy....but I like the innovative thinking, it is needed around here, best of luck w/ hybrid/electric/deisel Eagle!

my Eagle is due for an engine in a year or two, I am personally thinking of a spark engine built w/ liquid propane injection

I agree on Li-ion batteries, they are very cool!! Tesla is using them and building the battery charger into the car so you can plug into ANY 120VAC source....but, as opposed to a hybrid, here is just an idea: perhaps  dual electric powertrains, one FWD, one RWD?...even perhaps w/ ability to shut off/disconnect one or the other for extra econonmy...it would be much less complex than 4 motors (remember your 4 wheels don't turn the same speed all the time), less redundant than hybrid (I mean you wouldn't need space for a gas tank AND batteries) and would solve the problem of Eagle's weight  compared to what most current electric powertrains are designed to push

I do like the diesel electric hybrid idea! I like it a lot better than I like what I see from current gas/electric hybrids, maybe you could build a hybrid that could actually tow something and still be economical! that would actually make carrying around two different powertrains worthwhile

  If that little Diesel engine (would not even need to be a turbo) was designed to work with an electric motor like the prius, it would probably get around 75 MPG!   

just FYI, non-turbo diesels are not terribly efficient, not to mention rare these days....there's no reason not to run a turbo on a diesel except cost...the most efficient diesels are 2-stroke and this design practically mandates a turbo charger

Morten: Q, is this Blazer you speak of pure electric!?!? if so how does it perform? is it 4wd?

[MortenB]

The Blazer is indeed all electric.  It is a '92 S10 Blazer RWD.   It does fairly well, but the weight of 20 6v lead acid batteries keeps the acceleration down.    It was converted new for Robin Williams' wife.  Interesting story:   http://becketts.ws/eaa/eaasv-forms/pvbecketthp78.pdf

[Canoe]

... it would be much less complex than 4 motors (remember your 4 wheels don't turn the same speed all the time) ...

Not an issue. Benefit of four (or three) motors. The motors apply torque: through the wheel, resistance and travel, this will result in their speed. Potential enhancement: if the motors provide RPM feedback, you can detect when a wheel has lost traction (beyond a given delta-RPM) and automatically dial back the voltage|current applied to that motor - electronic pseudo-locking diff equivalency.

Easy with two motors in the front, and you lose the front axle & diff weight.
Harder to redo rear suspension to lose the axle to get to drive with two rear motors. Or drive rear with one on or to the rear diff.

... less redundant than hybrid (I mean you wouldn't need space for a gas tank AND batteries) ...

Small battery requirement. Not like an only electric vehicle.

[MaskNMI]

canoe: hmm, you've got me hooked, I can't wait to see it!

now, if you gave it 4-wheel steering along with 4 independent motors...that could get WAY COOL!!