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  • November 22, 2024, 02:50:58 PM

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Author Topic: It's a myth that lower levels of zinc in new oils wear out flat tappet camshafts  (Read 9928 times)

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Offline priya

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There was a discussion that took place on my project thread some time back regarding the "need" for zinc additives in older flat tappet motors.

http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=15595.msg315054#msg315054

As I (my mechanic husband) said at the time, its a myth that using new oils in an old motor will wear out the flat tappet camshaft.   New oils are designed to be backwards compatible with older engines.

Go down to the part about starburst oils and read it for yourself:


http://www.nonlintec.com/sprite/oil_myths.pdf
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 03:58:24 PM by priya »

Offline carnuck

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Put into old motors that have run for years shouldn't make a difference. Breaking in a freshly built motor shows there is proven destruction of the cam, etc from the lack of zinc. The reason the zinc was added in the '70s in the first place was to increase the anti-wear of motor oils. Cars from the pre '70s lasted longer than they used to because of the zinc.
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

Offline priya

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No, there is no proven destruction on a freshly built motor, there is no evidence whatsoever to support that conclusion, in fact the backwards compatible anti-wear tests all new oils must pass show there is no excessive wear on flat tappet camshafts. Read the article.   The extra zinc added in the 1970's was for anti-oxidation to prevent the thickening of oil as it aged in high load engines not for protection of cams.   Pre-70's motors did not last any longer as a result of these higher levels of zinc.

The anti-wear tests performed on new oils have to be done on freshly built motors or there'd be no way to determine if there has been any wear.  If you have a scientific wear test by an automotive engineer that contradicts the SAE tests by all means post it.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 10:49:56 PM by priya »

Offline carnuck

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How is it that an electronics company has this specialized knowledge?

http://www.nonlintec.com/

Oil companies don't agree

Mobil oil says they have other oils that are higher zinc
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx

Amsoil too
http://www.amsoil.com/search.aspx?searchedtext=zinc

http://www.utterpower.com/epa-pushing-to-remove-all-the-zinc-out-of-lube-oil/


I've been a mechanic since 1975 (when I was a trainee) till 2005 when I "retired" from fixing other's cars. I saw the damage myself. State of CA did it first and the big diesel trucks were dropping like flies (and suing the state) for $50K or more in damages to their motors. MODERN engines (ie: '91 up) don't need the ZDDP unless used for racing.

Oh, and it's not the zinc that does most of the lubing. It's the phosphorous (the P in ZDDP) that does it, but the formulation is what is the most stable.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2389520
« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 03:15:23 AM by carnuck »
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

Offline priya

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How is it that an electronics company has this specialized knowledge?

http://www.nonlintec.com/

The information is from General motors oil and lubricants group, not from linktec.



Oil companies don't agree

Mobil oil says they have other oils that are higher zinc
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Zinc_Motor_Oils.aspx

No, the oil companies DO agree - from YOUR link:

Customer: "Has Zinc Been Removed from Motor Oils? I am having thrust bearing failure in a 4.6 modified performance engine. This is a street/strip engine. Many of my friends are having the same problem. I think it is the result of the removal of zinc from the oil. "

Mobil: "The active ingredient that you are talking about is phosphorus which is added through a component called ZDDP. For products that meet the new ILSAC GF-5 specification the phosphorus levels for the oil must be less than 800 ppm phosphorus. The ILSAC level for phosphorus has been reduced to protect the catalytic converter and other emission protection equipment. The engine manufacturers are confident that this level of phosphorus will protect both new and older engines."

Amsoil too
http://www.amsoil.com/search.aspx?searchedtext=zinc

Does not reference any scientific testing to contradict the results from SAE tests Sequence IVA and Sequence IIIG.  Oil companies will sell whatever there is a demand for regardless of whether or not there is any need for the product.

http://www.utterpower.com/epa-pushing-to-remove-all-the-zinc-out-of-lube-oil/

From the link he is a somewhat of a conspiracy theorist.  Refers only to hearsay - the same myths you are repeating.  Does not reference any scientific testing to contradict the results from SAE tests Sequence IVA and Sequence IIIG.

I've been a mechanic since 1975 (when I was a trainee) till 2005 when I "retired" from fixing other's cars. I saw the damage myself. State of CA did it first and the big diesel trucks were dropping like flies (and suing the state) for $50K or more in damages to their motors. MODERN engines (ie: '91 up) don't need the ZDDP unless used for racing.

You looking at a damaged motor and guessing its due to low levels of zinc and not some other cause is NOT scientific and does NOT prove the myth in any way.  Only a scientifically controlled repeatable test with benchmarks such as SAE tests Sequence IVA and Sequence IIIG does.  I looked and was unable to verify your claim of any diesel truck manufacturerers or truckers suing the state of California over low zinc levels in oil let alone winning such a law suit.  Given that California didn't mandate those changes to motor oil, the car companies themselves requested lower zinc motor oils to avoid damaging catalytic converters that sounds like BS to me.

Note what major automotive journalists Edmunds.com said when asked about the need for zinc in pre-90's cars:

"Here is bulletin No.: 11-00-90-001  from GM regarding older vehicles and oil. According to it, the Dexos 1 oil specifications are backward compatible. I won't go any further on this subject, because there is so much mis-information out there on it, that anything said otherwise will end up in with people arguing about it. So take it for what it is worth.
http://answers.edmunds.com/question-What-oil-pre-90-engines-high-zinc-I-ve-added-Rislone-zinc-Mobil-1-1000-ppm-137488.aspx

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2389520

Once again, references hearsay only - "I heard it was bad for older motors",  contains no reference to scientific testing that contradicts SAE tests Sequence IVA and Sequence IIIG.  And even some of the people in that link say lower levels of zinc in new oil DO NOT cause excessive wear in older motors.  NONE of your links refuted what I posted with SCIENTIFIC tests, and in fact one of the links you did post, contrary to your claim that it refuted what I posted, actually AGREED that low levels of zinc in new starburst oils do NOT harm older engines.

You've only repeated people repeating the myth, you have not proven ANYTHING.  Only the scientific tests I liked to are proof and they prove conclusively that the lower levels of zinc (ZDDP) in newer oils are backwards compatible and do NOT cause excessive wear in older engines.

Offline carnuck

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Can you prove they did those tests and it's not fake info on the net? I have built pretty much identical motors and fired them up with and without ZDDP break in additives. Half the motors just fired up without the additive wiped out the cams.
   GMs were losing cams left and right in the 70s before ZDDP. It was so bad that General Motors came out with their own additive EOS GM part number 88862586. Now you're telling me that a company that spent billions on R&D is going to waste time on snakeoil?
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

Offline priya

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Bob Olree at the time was at the time a Power Train Engineer at GM and  Chairman of an oil standards body. He knows what he is talking about.  The article originally appeared in a Dec. 2007 GM Techlink publication for GM dealers and technicians titled: “Engine Oil Myths”.  GM techlink is not available to the public on the internet.

An Esso oil company bulletin refers to the tests:

http://www.acccc.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=45.

"Modern passenger car gasoline engines almost exclusively use roller followers,
whether cam-in-block or overhead cam valvetrain designs. Older engines use flat lifters
or tappets which having a sliding, rather than rolling, contact that is much more
susceptible to wear.

The oils in use at the time these engines were produced contained ~50% more
ZDDP than todays oils to provide not only wear protection but some cost effective antioxidancy
as well. Significant concern has arisen among the owners and restorers of these
older vehicles over the correct lubricant selection. Data published by General Motors
(SAE Paper 2004-01-2896 "How Much ZDP is Enough?", Robert M. Olree, Micheal L.
McMillan) indicates that "lower levels of phosphorous, certainly as low as 0.05%, and
perhaps as low as 0.03%" are sufficient to provide scuffing and wear protection for
camshafts in the field."

Starburst (new) oils have a Zddp level of between .06 and .08 percent which is more than what was originally put in oils in the 1940's to address wear issues as you can see in the first link I posted.

 Without objective observers and tightly controlled tests I'm not inclined to believe what you think and claim happened in your rebuilds over the automotive engineers who performed these tightly controlled tests, nor do I believe your unsupported claims about GM losing cams left and right in the 70's.  For every mechanic like you that makes such claims there's one like my husband who says there's no truth to the claim that modern oils cause excessive wear in older motors and he's rebuilt many using new oils and never seen a failure due to the oil.  I've given you the information from GM itself and your welcome to contact them and call them liars if you want but I'm going to take their word for it as well as the rest of the automotive manufacturers over yours every day.  People here can read what you posted and what I posted and decide for themselves.  Once again, all you've posted is repitition of the myth and no scientific tests to contradict those that were done by SAE.

Those who think they should add zinc to their oil in the form of ZDDP should keep in mind that if ZDDP levels get too high it will cause excessive wear.
 



« Last Edit: March 12, 2013, 04:55:52 PM by priya »

Offline carnuck

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I'll just leave this here to read.

http://www.aera.org/ep/EPQ1-2013/index.html Page 72 (on the pictures or 74 on the pdf)
AMC/Jeep gauges are for amusement only. Any correlation between them and reality is purely coincidental!

 

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