This seems wrong, am I right?

[WoodenBirdOfPrey]

I finally got to work trying to figure out why Virginia is being so stubborn and won't run smooth until warmed up.  She idles really low and choppy and for the first 30 seconds I have to drive with both feet.  This hasn't always been the case though, she ran pretty well when I got her a year ago.

I came to the conclusion that the choke wasn't working, it never seemed to close, even when cold.  All the linkages and pivots were pretty gummed up from some kind of sticky lube that was sprayed on there at one time.  I cleaned that all up.  Didn't make a difference, still no choke action.

I tried the quick test of jumping the battery + to the terminal on the choke, and waiting to see if it did anything.  Nothing happened.  I checked the resistance, and it was about 2k ohms, which seemed to darn high to me for anything that was going to generate a measurable amount of heat.  I took the same reading on my parts car, and came up with about 3.7 ohms, much more reasonable.  So that explains it, bad choke thermostat, right?  

I figured I'd pull the one off my parts car instead of spending $50 for one at a local parts place.  Not so much luck with that though, as the one on my parts car is riveted in place.  I remember at some point Gronk posted up that he had a pile of good Carter chokes and was selling them for much less than the parts stores.  I searched for that thread, but didn't find it.  What I did find though, was his write-up about making the Carter's stock choke thermostat work on a Motorcraft 2150.  The image he posted showing the difference is telling me that my carb has had the wrong choke on it the whole time I've owned the car.  See below.  This is the one I pulled from Virginia, and Gronk's visual aid.



I'm not so sure a bad choke is the only issue now.  How messed up does a carb have to be, for the car to run fine with a choke that operates in the wrong direction?  Because it started pretty darn good last winter, even when it was 15 degrees.  Now I have to coax it into starting even when it's 75 degrees.  But still, once it's warmed up, it idles at about 600rpm so smoothly that sitting at lights sometimes I look down at the tach just to make sure it's still running.  Even got 23mpg average on a trip to Centralia.  Where do I even start?  I know this thing has been tampered with because the choke pull-off isn't hooked up, and the sol-vac isn't pluggged in either.  When I plugged it in, the car would idle too high when the headlights were on.  If, indeed, it was even the correct wire that I plugged into it.  I'm tempted to go the 2150 route and ditch the Carter, but that's a lot of fine tuning I don't want to deal with right now.  Setting timing and tuning anything bigger than a single cylinder motor is beyond my current skill set.

Thanks in advance to anyone that tries to help me through this mess.

[DaemonForce]

I think you're looking too deep in this issue. These cars don't typically have constant carburetor and timing problems like my grandfather's old Fords. These things are vacuum and oil nightmares and that's only due to poor maintenance. If there isn't some kind of air or oil leak there's often some critical part(usually in plain sight) ready to fail. It's not a problem with the engine design itself but so much has been improved across 30 years that the stock components are just total trash. I just wasted the entire next week by ordering manifold plugs for my intake manifold just so my Eagle will operate. Reason being I'm not ready to hunt around in the junkyards for a new intake.

I've been having a similar issue like you described but it's not so much the wrong choke as it is plainly the wrong carburetor and gaskets. I don't care if you're using a Carter YF, Carter BBD, Motorcraft, Weber or Demon. The issue isn't the fuel delivery device but the air part of it. If I had the money I would have junked more than half of this engine a LONG time ago. The only stock 258 equipment I would keep would literally be the block, pan and crank. The rest is new parts or from other engines. One reason being there was a successor to the AMC 258 that outclassed all the previous I6 designs in power, durability, availability and reliability. You might want to look into that.

[WoodenBirdOfPrey]

I don't follow that... forgive me if I come across a little disgruntled here, but it sounds like your suggestion is to swap in a newer engine or at least all the top end components, because everything stock is junk.  Seems like THAT would be looking too deep into it for a solution.  That sounds like a $1,000, 50 man hour solution to a $20, 2 man hour problem.  Yeah, I understand that the newer stuff has some advantages, but I feel like the problems I'm having aren't nearly enough to justify drastic measures, and being that this is an AMC, I'd prefer to keep AMC's original parts in it when possible.  For it's age and mileage, I think this thing is in better shape than today's new cars will be when they're 27 years old!  New stuff just has too many potential points of failure, I like this old "junk".

I already verified that the choke simply does not work at all - cold start, the choke is wide open, and never closes.  I tested the choke by wiring it directly to the battery, and still no action.  So the choke thermostat is definitely in need of replacement.  The biggest question, is really what orientation/direction should the proper choke thermostat coil be?  Gronk's info says mine is wrong.  Looking at pictures of the choke thermostats on parts sites (rock auto and advance auto parts) show that the coil goes the same direction as mine, but as they may just be stock photos and not one of the exact part, I don't trust that info.

My basic understanding on how these choke thermostats work, is that as they heat up, the coil slightly straightens out, and on mine it seems like that would pull the choke closed even more, instead of gradually opening it like it's supposed to.  That's what has me so confused, because if it's the wrong choke, how would it have ever worked well for me?  I swear this thing ran like a top for at least the first 6 months, and nobody has touched it except me.

I'm beginning to wonder if this thing runs on something other than gas.  Maybe the souls of the :water reservoir:.  A friend had an old boat with a Chrysler 2 stroke motor that ran on the souls of the :water reservoir:, i'm sure of it.  One time it ran away on us at rpm's way higher than it ever should have been capable, even after killing spark and disconnecting fuel, I had to suffocate it with a life jacket so it would stop before it grenaded.

[WoodenBirdOfPrey]

I tried flipping the spring, but on this one, it's pressed together in such a way that it won't come apart without completely destroying it or at least grinding at it with a Dremel.

I'll mess with it again tomorrow, but I'm still pretty sure this one is bad.  I know it normally pulls the power through the oil pressure switch, so i bypassed that with a straight wire from the battery, and there was no sign of life.  I set it so the choke was partway open, so whether it turned the right direction or backwards, I think some movement should have been evident if it was heating up/moving at all.  I let it go at least 5 minutes with no change at all.

[mudkicker715]

if you cannot make it work straight from the battery. than you have a ground issue with the spring.

[DaemonForce]

I don't follow that... forgive me if I come across a little disgruntled here, but it sounds like your suggestion is to swap in a newer engine or at least all the top end components, because everything stock is junk.

First off, you own and drive an AMC. You're clearly going to be more than just a "little disgruntled" here. My suggestion isn't to swap in a newer engine but that sounds like a really good idea if your idea of NEW matches mine. The big issue I have is with the way AMC manufactured these cars in the first place. They were designed right but built wrong. That sounds a little weird doesn't it? To introduce a magically superior drivetrain for cars that was only previously found in light trucks yet build it wrong...Try comparing to other 4WD AMCs and you'll see exactly what I'm getting at but that all takes a back seat to the engine issue.

This car has gone through enough incarnations to make any comparisons or junkyard part matchups to the Eagle a complete outlier year after year after year while the lack of engine and other standardized drivetrain updates made this vehicle suffer very badly. Your CJ/DJ/Cherokee/Comanche existed all around the production period of this oddball and they got more attention. The engine options on all those previous models were final. Then something amazing happened: The 4L. It was an experiment that I have found immediately in the Cherokee and Comanche models from 86-87. BAM! The Eagle was still in production at this time as AMC's only active passenger vehicle project and it would have been an immense benefit to add the 4L as an option for these little cars if not make it the new standard. What was the huge problem? I finally figured it out with the crap I'm going through right now.

its the stone aged emissions junk thats the real problems compared to todays stuff.

That is actually one of several issues related to performance but looking at it like that it's really the last nail in the coffin. I have deleted most of the emissions garbage from my Eagle after the rest has ceased function or randomly blown itself off somewhere along the highway. I am in the middle of desmogging my whole car to reflect the typical CJ profile and so far the only snag I have is the pulse air injection system that marries the manifolds. I no longer have any of the smog equipment and need to plug my intake manifold to get this working again. I had to order special bolts of an unknown threading earlier this week to take care of it.

Consider doing that to a 4L engine for carbureting. Then you'll find the mess of emissions makes the swap illegal even though all that crap has absolutely no legitimate purpose on this engine. Unless you're in California, you're already screwed regardless.

if you cannot make it work straight from the battery. than you have a ground issue with the spring.

That's one good reason I wouldn't try flipping. -_-

I know this question seems pretty obvious but what does the outside of your choke look like? This is what I pulled off of my intake last week and it's the stock carb. Never been rebuilt and yes it still functions.



Honestly from what others describe, this somehow functions better than anyone else's Carter. I have no idea how that's even possible since even without all the oil mess the body spacer looked anything but flat and it's had vacuum leaks since before I owned the car. That feedback system has been a nightmare too. Anyway the choke is riveted into place in the last area out of view so I can't pull it apart to clean it up or even see what the spring looks like. On my other carb, I believe there's a much easier way to tell.

This is what I found, rebuilt and will eventually swap in next week.



Looks sexyish. I'll find out if I did a good job rebuilding it once I figure out this new iron spacer. Anyway do you see the label across the top of choke? If you see that, well that's good enough for me.

[WoodenBirdOfPrey]

So, the spring/element grounds on the spring itself, then through the linkages?  Seems like loose fitting moving parts would be a really poor source of ground.  I was under the impression that it grounded through the outer ring, since it has the steel plates that go to the edge where the retaining ring is, and those contacts on the outside are riveted through to metal contacts on the inside.  If it didn't ground through those, then why would they have the metal contacts on the outside?

My carb and choke is identical to the feedback one you removed, dforce.  The biggest difference I see is the clocking of the choke thermostat.  The best point of reference in those pictures is the power terminal, and on both of your carbs, it's clocked so that it's angled back a good bit.  With mine, with everything cold, I have to have it dead center straight up or a little to the front before it will even start closing the choke.  Maybe that's just a difference in the manufacturing of the chokes, but mine looks to be an original with the Carter name on it just like the ones you have.  I'm leaning even more towards it being the wrong one, and that it only was working before through some form of black magic and proper application of gypsy tears by the previous owner.

[WoodenBirdOfPrey]

Ok, did some more tinkering and figured a few things out.  Now I have a theory of what's going on.

First, I wish I would have checked this first... I aimed a heat gun at my choke thermostat, and the coil actually tightens up when it is heated, contrary to what I believed, and what most documentation suggested.  So I'm confident now that this is the correct choke thermostat.  Apparently Gronk's information doesn't apply to all Carters.

I again tried to get my choke to work with battery power, and still no dice.  I hooked it directly to the battery with jumper cables and let it go for 10 minutes or longer, and it didn't move at all.  I believe I'll be taking Casper up on his offer, $50 at the parts store for such a simple piece seems like price gouging.  That extra $45 in my wallet or gas tank will be greatly appreciated!

I went through the carb again, and found out there was also some sticky mess causing the high idle cam to hang up, so it wasn't moving freely at all.  I hit it with some starting fluid and wd-40 and it's nice and easy now.  Between the high idle cam sticking and the thermostat linkage sticking, it's no wonder that the choke wasn't closing when cold.

If anybody sees error in my logic feel free to point it out, but I think I got it figured out now, at least I've convinced myself this all makes sense.

[bigdog56e]

Fellers, I used the base from my Eagle carb and the body from a 318 CID Chrysler to make a non feedback carb, has ran okay for three years, but do think the choke t'stat is getting weak.
                                                                                                         Eddie

[DaemonForce]

I went through the carb again, and found out there was also some sticky mess causing the high idle cam to hang up, so it wasn't moving freely at all.  I hit it with some starting fluid and wd-40 and it's nice and easy now.  Between the high idle cam sticking and the thermostat linkage sticking, it's no wonder that the choke wasn't closing when cold.

This is actually something I had to deal with when rebuilding my carb. The high idle cam was completely seized and so was the choke. It took a lot of effort to disassemble the choke housing but the rest was far worse. If it wasn't gaskets just rotting off it was something so gunked up and nasty that had no business being in such condition. The first thing I do with my other feedback Carters is determine that everything works. If you're really lost as to what's going on with your carb it may be due for a rebuild or replacement. I'm sure that NAPA can help you with a throttle spacer kit. I got my overhaul kit from O'Reilly. I don't have the cash to be ordering new Motorcraft and Demon carbs so I go shopping in the junkyards. At least a new spacer will allow you to do an in place Carter replacement or bolt in a Rochester or Motorcraft without changing manifolds. It's really up to you but personally I want to make my Eagle reflect the old CJs as much as possible.

[ammachine390]

I think the majority of your problems seem to be the fault of the choke thermostat. I went out and measured the resistance of mine, and got 3.1 ohms between the terminal of the heater and the negative battery post. Sounds like yours is bad.

[priya]

Consider doing that to a 4L engine for carbureting. Then you'll find the mess of emissions makes the swap illegal even though all that crap has absolutely no legitimate purpose on this engine.

When someone makes a statment like that it gives me serious doubts about everything they say.

[priya]

I don't follow that... forgive me if I come across a little disgruntled here, but it sounds like your suggestion is to swap in a newer engine or at least all the top end components, because everything stock is junk.  Seems like THAT would be looking too deep into it for a solution.  That sounds like a $1,000, 50 man hour solution to a $20, 2 man hour problem.  Yeah, I understand that the newer stuff has some advantages, but I feel like the problems I'm having aren't nearly enough to justify drastic measures, and being that this is an AMC, I'd prefer to keep AMC's original parts in it when possible. 

I agree.

[WoodenBirdOfPrey]

I received the choke thermostat Casper sent me in the mail today.  That's all it needed,  and as quick as it warmed up and opened,  I'm betting that mine never worked since I got it,  and was opening up on just the engine heat alone.  Much better, thanks for the help guys!  I wish I could get it out and drive it tonight,  but there's a Saturn with a missing brake caliper sitting on the jack stands in front of the garage,  I guess I'll wait until the weekend.