Some of the information on this initial post is incorrect. Inner tie rod threads are actually clockwise (right hand) and outer tie rod threads are counter-clockwise (left hand). The "Nova Hybrid" solution presented does not work because of the thread direction (thank you Mips). Additional information and solutions are provided in later posts.
Many of you are probably aware that inner tie rods have disappeared from the market. I've been looking into this and I've come up with a workaround. It's not perfect, but it's cheap and easy.
First some specs:
Inner and outer tie rods are identical except for the fact that the inner tie rod has counter-clockwise (left-hand) adjusting threads.
Adjusting threads are 5/8-18 - common GM size
Stud threads are 7/16-20 - common GM size
Stud taper is 1.5"/1' also called 7° or 7.15° - common angle across many makes
Taper minor diameter is approximately 0.495" (possibly spec'd at 1/2") - varies between brands - uncommon size
Taper major diameter is approximately 0.575" (possibly spec'd at 9/16) - varies between brands - uncommon size
Length of taper engagement is approximately 3/8" when hand-tight - varies between brands.
Hornet/Nova Hybrid Solution:
Outer tie rods from Hornets, Spirits, Concords, Gremlins, Javelins, etc. (MOOG ES368RL) have the correct taper, and thread sizes. They also have correct counter-clockwise adjusting thread. The only issue is that they are shorter than the Eagle inner tie rods. A simple and inexpensive solution for this is to use a longer adjusting sleeve.
The adjusting sleeves on my Eagle are 4.25" long. I've seen many for sale which are 4.5" long. I cannot say which is the correct original length.
One of the attached pictures shows three tie rods, two with adjusting sleeves. The top is a GM tie rod. The middle is a Hornet Outer tie rod. The lower is an Eagle Inner tie rod.
The lower tie rod has my original adjusting sleeve on it. The middle tie rod has an adjusting sleeve from a 1970 Chevy Nova (along with about a dozen other GM models) part# MOOG ES350S or DELPHI TA5458. It's just over 6" long. The overall difference in length is approximately 1/4".
Without exact specs on material properties and construction, it's impossible to say how much thread engagement is actually necessary for the tie rods. To be safe, I recommend no less that 1 times the diameter, or 5/8"; for theoretical maximum strength 2 times the diameter, or 1 1/4".
I've been unable to locate a 6 1/2" tie rod adjuster but that length would probably be ideal for maximum thread engagement..
There are a number of companies which have 5/8"-18 tie rod adjusting sleeves available in custom lengths. They are mostly jam-nut locking as opposed to the split sleeve style of the OEMs, but they could be a good alternative if more thread engagement is needed.
GM Solution
Older GM Vehicles (60s-80s) often used tie rods with 5/8"-18 adjusting threads and 7/16"-20 stud threads. They are available in a myriad of lengths and clockwise/counterclockwise threads depending on the vehicle and the tie rod position. The taper angle is also generally the appropriate 1.5"/1' (7°). The only issue with these tie rods is the taper diameters. The angle is the same, but overall the tapers are bigger, causing the tie rod end stud to have less engagement.
One of the attached pictures shows a comparison of the GM taper with the AMC taper. The AMC taper has approximately 3/8" engagement length, while the GM has approximately 1/4" of engagement. That's a reduction of 1/3. However, they still fit and can still be used. Long term durability is unknown.
A way around this is to ream female tapers on the Eagle to accept the slightly larger GM size. 7° reamers are readily available and fairly easy to use. This modification has been done by others with good results so I'll say no more about it.
Thanks for these solutions! They seem like good workarounds!
Awesome!
Thanks fellas.
If the 6" tie rod sleeves are too short for most people I can have custom ones made for the store. Somebody with an intact steering system and shot tie rods just needs to test this out and let me know, my steering is all dissembled and while the mock-up looks good I can't be 100% certain there's not some minor unforeseen problem.
Okay, so at extreme expense (two RareParts 26181 Inner Toe Rods cost me $430cad) I have purchased both a set of RareParts inner tie rod ends, a pair of Mevotech outer tie rod ends and the Moog substitute Hornet outer tie rod.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/14858072-0f21-4295-8e2f-b3ee047a157f/fcd055c4-3be5-4454-881a-834ea7e74b72.jpg)
I have the tie rods each threaded into the adjusters about 3/4 of an inch. As observed the Moog substitute if squared up is indeed half an inch shorter, so you would need to thread it further up the sleeve to make up for missing thread length.
PROBLEM #1The Moog substitution will not work.
QuoteOuter tie rods from Hornets, Spirits, Concords, Gremlins, Javelins, etc. (MOOG ES368RL) have the correct taper, and thread sizes. They also have correct counter-clockwise adjusting thread
This is wrong. Visually if you compare the two the threads are going opposite directions. If you assemble a tie rod set with the outer, the substitute sleeve and the substitute inner you will notice it will not squarely thread in and immediately bind.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/14858072-0f21-4295-8e2f-b3ee047a157f/8c660769-2d72-454e-8711-8f27e9e5217c.jpg)
Think about this for a second. If both ends of the adjuster have the same direction thread the sleeve just moves left to right/right to left and does nothing. If the threads are going opposite directions if you turn the adjuster one way it pushes the tie rod ends out and the other direction pulls them back in.
This is incredibly frustrating because like you said, if you take the RareParts outer and the Mevotech inner....
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/14858072-0f21-4295-8e2f-b3ee047a157f/52607306-01f2-4448-95b8-5068c45d067b.jpg)
It's the same fscking part. All measurements are identical. The taper is identical. It's just threaded normally and the other is threaded in reverse.
MIPS,
I don't understand. MOOG ES368RL is counter-clockwise threaded:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=202261&cc=1004443&pt=7428&jsn=413.
Is the Eagle inner tie rod supposed to be normally threaded (clockwise) or reverse-thread (counter-clockwise, left-hand, etc.)? There are posts on here an other forums stating that the inner tie rod is reverse-thread, just like the ES368RL.
What I used in my original post as the MOOG "Inner" was actually sold to me as an "Outer" by RockAuto several years ago (Moog inner tie rods were unavailable by that point), but I was confident it was identical in length and design to an inner and would serve to illustrate the length difference appropriately. It's normally threaded (clockwise). Now if you're telling me that the inner tie rod is supposed to be clockwise, well then I must have been incredibly lucky to have such a mix up in my favor.
Well Mips hasn't replied, but I'm going to assume he's correct. I can't find any published information on tie rod thread direction. I tried reaching out to Mevotech but, unsurprisingly, got no reply. So I guess I was just flat wrong.
Good thing it doesn't matter! Here's why:
You can use two hornet outer tie rods per side. Simply put an Eagle adjuster sleeve on each tie rod and then you've got two CW female threads that can be connected with a piece of normal all-thread. To adjust toe you simply loosen one of the sleeves and turn it while keeping the other locked in place. Doesn't really matter which one, you can even use both. Technically this will give you twice the amount of toe adjustment too.
I'll pick up some all thread and mock this up in a few days.
I've also managed to discover that there is at least a few tie rods with the same taper as the AMC ones; specifically some Suzuki, Mazda, and Mercedes.
The right Mazda ones seem to not be available in North America. Seems like our models used different parts for some reason.
89-98 Suzuki Sidekick tie rods may work but I haven't been able to verify. The inner tie rods are quite long and have a sort of "S" shaped jog to them, they're CCW threads. The outer ones are short and straight with CW threads. M16x1.5 Combined with a short adjuster they may be just right. I'll keep looking at them.
1985 Mercedes 380SL (plus many more models) have the correct taper. I've gotten my hands on one. Like the Eagle they used identical tie rods with opposite threads. They're M14x1.5. They're short and straight which makes things easier, but finding an adjuster that's long enough is a bit tricky. Custom adjusters might be the best option, but considering you can reuse adjusters basically forever, it seems a relatively small investment.
I've ordered quite a few parts and once they arrive I'll take some pictures and follow up with more information.
So I saw that RockAuto still has inner tie rods listed for our eagles on they're website but that they've been discontinued, so I took the part number for those and searched for them online and came up with a hit for some on the O'Reilly's website. So I went into the parts store today and asked them to look up the part number and the guy said they would be able to have them in the next day. I don't know if they will work as I did not order any because I really don't want to remove my old ones as they seem to still be in good shape, but I was thinking somebody else may have tried them and if not might be able to get them and compare them to what we have and the ones that they would be able to get are from the precision brand.
Here is the link to the park on their website. https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/c/precision-chassis/chassis---steering/steering/tie-rod-end/26986156e07c/precision-chassis-tie-rod-end/opm0/es2107rl/v/a/6580/automotive-car-1980-american-motors-eagle?q=tie+rod+end&pos=1
Maddog,
That's the part number alright. Went to the O'Reilly website and tried to buy them. When you add them to your cart you get this error:
"Item no longer available due to inventory or store selection changes. Remove this item to continue."
There might be one or two floating around in there system, but I'm pretty confident that they're discontinued.
Well that's not good to hear. I was really hoping that they would have them for those that need them. One of the weirder results I got when I searched that part number was for 2011 to like 2014 Dodge chargers, but it was one of those that has a female end instead of a male for the adjuster, of course it was also on eBay so somebody could have missed typed the part number for those tie rod ends.
This just gets stranger by the minute lol. I followed the link to the OReilly's website, added to my cart, and it can be at the store across the street by noon today. But then I decided to test it out and up the quantity to 6. Then I got the same message as Ludworks. Even when I went back to only 1, still got the same message.
So I emptied the cart, added the part back in, and was able to go all the way through the checkout and it says my order will be ready by 11:45 today. We shall see.
And it's ready for pickup. I wonder if it is the last surviving inner tie rod lol
Who knows but it would be crazy if it is.
I must say I love how this thread is going. I have messed around with the tie rod dilemma for hours. I went down the 'other vehicle' tie rod path, but found everything that fit was too short and a custom billet adjusting sleeve was too much. I never thought of the double sleeve idea. That is pure genius.
I got lucky and snatched up a few old made in USA Moog inners from Rock Auto about a year ago when like 4 mysteriously appeared. Someone must have cleaned out an old warehouse. The boots should be replaced before installing...but anyways. Hope that tie rod turns out to be real!
QuoteWell Mips hasn't replied, but I'm going to assume he's correct.
My bad. I dropped the ball on this and it's taken me months to get back to it.
The other reason I bought two complete sets (one to your part numbers and the other that I knew would go together) was to replace both sides at the same time. This also gave me two complete extra sets of parts so I was able to double-check with the other half of the kit I ordered in case it was something weird like the adjuster was incorrectly tapped at the factory and no, it's the same issue with the threads going the wrong direction.
A correct Eagle inner tie rod threads onto the adjuster sleeve (remember the sleeve is threaded different directions so it will only go on one side) in a clockwise rotation. If we use your suggested replacement adjuster sleeve, same thing.
If you use your recommended replacement Hornet tie rod end you have to both use the other side of the adjuster sleeve and rotate it counter-clockwise for it to thread into the sleeve. I've triple checked this and placed everything out on a bench and made sure I mixed nothing up. I'm positive about what I'm saying.
However I see you have come up with a solution already. ;)
Mips,
I appreciate you trying the parts and clarifying that the inner tie rods need to be CW thread. The thread direction is where all the confusion stems from.
As far as potential replacements I've got good news and bad. First the bad. Mercedes tie rods do NOT fit. The taper is wrong. They are something like 1/10 instead of 1/8. The one I initially got from NAPA was opened and on close inspection turns out there was what looks like small rocks or metal debris stuck to the wide part of the tapered stud. Gave the illusion of a tight (if somewhat odd-feeling) hand fit. Imagine my surprise when I ordered a different brand only to find they didn't seem to fit at all. PSA: Don't trust "new" parts to be in good condition, always clean and inspect.
The good news is Suzuki Sidekick tie rods are perfect, almost. The taper is a perfect match, the only confirmed non-AMC part I've found that fits. The issue lies in the length. I'm still working through this. I need to order more parts, but it looks like Suzuki Jimny "FJ" tie rods might also fit and length wouldn't be an issue. Only problem is they weren't sold in the US or Canada (as far as I'm aware), so they're a bit harder to get.