AMC Eagle Den Forum
The Shop => Electrical => Topic started by: framedoctor on September 15, 2020, 07:08:55 PM
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My father in law passed and left my kids a 1988 Eagle wagon with 60,000 miles. The car ran fine, then I decided to upgrade the stereo for the kids which worked well for a few weeks until one trip we turned on the defroster switch which in turn started the stereo wires smoking. I will start by saying I am an electrical know-nothing.
I removed the stereo, the car harness was unaffected, and then removed the defroster switch (which after the stereo was removed just made a constant buzzing noise). Now, the fan does not blow on high, the gas gauge and the coolant gauge needles max out on high when the car is started. I also discovered that I can now start the car without the key (no interlock?)
Is there anyone that can help me? Does it sound like a ground issue? Does it make sense to anyone? any help would be appreciated as my kids are pretty bummed now.
Dave
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Given you started smoking wires to the stereo, there's been some heat generated (likely shorted something).
So anything touching or near them could be heat damaged. And anything upstream/downstream of the current flow that generated the heat. Be it other swtiches, connectors, insulation melted, even the fuse box, and may be malfunctioning, or shorting which could cause more damage, even an electrical fire.
You need to identify where the stereo wires melting took place:
- physically, to see if the smoking/melting wires have damaged any wires, switches, devices, and
- everywhere those wires run to, looking for damage due to the high current that caused the high heat
But first, I'd recheck all fuses.
I'd unplug the new stereo from the car's harness, to take that out of the mix. Get the car working correctly first.
This may be something best left to someone knowledgeable, so you avoid the fire risk. Be it sitting or while driving down the road.
Not uncommon to be able to start an Eagle without the/a key. Less so with only 60 on it.
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The stereo is out and the defrost switch is out. all wire damage was on the harness nearest the stereo. I have inspected the wires leading back from the original stereo harness and from the defrost switch harness and so far no seeable damage. I will have to locate the fuse box (not real sure where it is) and look through it. I have also read that a bad silenoid can give electrical feedback and mess with gauges?
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So the ignition interlock problem is not a problem, apparently the Eagle has a switch below keyhole.
Here's more of what is a problem. My temp and gas gauge are fine until I turn blower on or headlights, then the gushes go full up. Also, the headlights do not light up when switch is pulled.
Can someone tell me where the fuse box is located?
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Fuses are located on drivers side up under the dash at the firewall.
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This may also help http://amceaglesden.com/guide/1988_Large_Electrical_Schematics_-_Much_applicable_to_other_years.
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do I have to remove the dash to get to the fuse box?
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No, you don't have to remove the dash. It's below the dash, just to the left of the brake pedal.
Good luck!
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Yeah, Im a novice at cars but with electrical issues----this car may never get fixed. for sale, 1988 Eagle wagon, mint cond., 60,000 miles :)
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Throw some photos up.
Perhaps we can figure it out.
I'd go as far as don't leave it sitting with the pos on the battery DIS-connected, just in case.
Question will be, was there something wrong with the stereo install, with the defrost or defrost switch, or something else...
But after the large current draw, other damage is on the table.
By defrost switch, I assume you mean the switch to power the rear window defrost? If so, does the wires that go to the grid on the window look good? No shorts? No repairs to the grid that would reduce it's resistance so it drew more current than usual?
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When I took out the factory stereo with acc on, the defrost switch made a constant buzzing sound until new stereo was installed. The new stereo was fine for several weeks until the rainy night my wife turned the defrost toggle on, that when the smell and the smoke started. upon tearing things apart the wires nearest the harness into stereo were fried. I removed the new stereo and the defrost switch again started buzzing so I removed it from its harness. There was continuity between the ouside pins of the lower three in pic. I also attached a pic of stereo harness with melted wires. It was a ground wire, accessory wire and power antennae(not equipped)
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in regards to the burnt harness, the red accessory wire was on a fuse which did not blow as well as the yellow battery wire. The power antenna wire was not connected to car harness. So im guessing that the heat originated in the ground?
Here is the car if it helps!! haha
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I'd go as far as don't leave it sitting with the pos on the battery DIS-connected, just in case.
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... So im guessing that the heat originated in the ground? ...
Heat occurs where there's current flow. The higher the current, the greater the heat. Hence high current loads have thicker conductors to handle that current AND insulation that can handle the heat from that current.
Can't tell from those photos where the origin was. Likely from current within the melted wires, but another heat source may have melted their insulation, allowing them to short to something and then they had too high of a current through them.
Is there any sign of heat damage to the dash where the radio and that switch was? In behind it? Use camera or mirror & camera.
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the only damage visible was near stereo. I followed the car harness and defroster harness as far back as I could and see no damage. There also was not heat damage to dash or inside of dash. I really dont want to remove the entire dash :( I was hoping someone would say its a bad ground with the headlight/gauges issue. The solder joints inside the defroster switch look like they were reflowed or were hot enough to reflow?
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Here's part of what is difficult trying to diagnose something long distance.
You state "the only damage visible was near stereo", but don't say precisely what that was. We're left assuming what you stated before.
You've stated you don't have much experience with electrical, yet feel confident to state there was no damage inside of dash, where we had enough heat to melt some wires (although that looks like it's heat from current flowing in the conductor inside those wires), and a nearby switch was misbehaving and is potentially showing some heat damage on a circuit board, and you say you're hoping someone would say it's a bad ground.
There isn't enough information yet to know what the original cause was, nor what all has been affected. We can't see and explore the vehicle as we're not there. You're the eyes on the scene, and witness to what occurred.
You can easily have multiple issues. And some of your observations of problems can be multi-causal. They may be rearing their heads at this time just because, or because they're related to what caused the huge current flow, or related to some damage done during that.
That could be some reflow, it could be some rosin, or it could be a sealer sprayed on the board. The rug is in great focus, the board not so much so.
So to be clear on some things,
With "all wire damage was on the harness nearest the stereo", does that mean to the car's harness or to the 'pigtails' attached to the stereo?
With "the rainy night my wife turned the defrost toggle on", you had the headlights on when this happened?
High beams or low beams? (no fog lamps seen, so that's out of the mix)
Without uninstalling it, can you see any signs of heat damage (melting, black) on the high/low switch on the left side of the steering column, around the 10 am location just in behind the dash?
Now pulling the light switch no longer turns on the headlights. Where the headlights on and then went out when that wire melting occurred following your wife turning the defroster switch on?
How much delay between turning the defrost switch on and getting the smell & smoke?
> By defrost switch, I assume you mean the switch to power the rear window defrost? If so, does the wires that go to the grid on the window look good? No shorts? No repairs to the grid that would reduce it's resistance so it drew more current than usual?
We've got issues with some gauges.
> the gas gauge and the coolant gauge needles max out on high when the car is started
> My temp and gas gauge are fine until I turn blower on or headlights, then the gushes go full up
Does that mean those gauges are good when you turn the ignition on, then max out when starting, then return to a normal appearance once running, until you turn on the blower or headlight switch?
One thing you can do, which may or may not help, but should be done anyways, is redo the battery's ground to the car's body. Ensure everything is off, remove the positive cable attachment from the battery, find where the negative battery terminal's cable goes to ground to the car's body (usually from the battery back towards the shock/spring tower, be it along the inner fender somewhere or on one of the nuts on that tower). Disconnect the cable ground and clean up any corrosion. Cover with dielectric grease and reattach. Connect the positive back to the battery. And while you're there, may as well clean both terminals and cable connections to the battery and cover with dielectric grease.
There's more, but we'll start with that.
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With no key in the ignition and pulling the lights on the lights do not come on and the gauges go full up. With the key in the ignition and switch to accessory the gauges are normal until you pull on the headlights and still the headlights do not come on.
The ground from the battery is attached to the air conditioner bracket but I also see there is a grounding strap from the engine to the car frame.
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The wires on the harness for the defroster switch visibly have no damage and the actual defroster grid on the back windshield doesn't show any gaps to be honest this car is almost like brand new. I understand that it is a 1988 and the wires themselves are 30 years old.
I also looked by the firewall by the brake pedal and I don't see any fuse box so I'm guessing that it's behind the dash?
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Also noted is that the windshield wiper switch when activated does not affect the gauges like the blower switch and the headlight switch.
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The wires on the harness for the defroster switch visibly have no damage and the actual defroster grid on the back windshield doesn't show any gaps to be honest this car is almost like brand new. I understand that it is a 1988 and the wires themselves are 30 years old.
I also looked by the firewall by the brake pedal and I don't see any fuse box so I'm guessing that it's behind the dash?
Seems silly because you expected and can see that the rear defrost is fine, but if there was a short there somewhere it could account for a high current draw when that switch was thrown. Now with a further check of that circuit, we can probably eliminate that part of the defrost circuit.
Fuse box should be on the firewall, immediately to the right & adjacent to the emergency brake pedal assembly. This is also to the left of the brake pedal. On my two eagles, neither had this fuse box covered by any panel of any sort. (There is a panel that obscures the high/low beam switch that may have current/heat damage to it.) There were a number of changes in the '88 compared to the earlier Eagles, but I wouldn't expect the fuse box to be relocated.
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To narrow down what happened, we need a timeline, of what was what, when.
So with the gauges, lights, stereo, defrost, etc., what are you know you noticed that the function was good vs. bad, vs you think it was good vs. bad, vs. you don't recall, for:
- Eagle as you got it, with the original stereo in it
- Once the original stereo was out
- Once the new stereo was in
- that night but before the Defrost switch was turned on
- immediately following the switch was turned on,
- sometime later or the next day, before pulling the new stereo out,
- after pulling the new stereo out
- after pulling the defrost switch
- currently.
Yes that's a pain, but it could show what is possibly related to or is a cause of, or is independent of, or is a consequence of that high current flow, or a stereo going in or out.
If I've got the above order wrong, i.e., stereo or defrost switch in/out, please change it.
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Inherited the Eagle. Ran great and stereo worked fine.
1.) Never noticed if the gauges ever malfunctioned.
2.) Never tried the defroster switch
3.) Headlights and blower worked.
Removed old stereo
1.) Noticed defroster switch buzzed in on position.
2.) Never noticed a problem with gauges ( But they could have been malfunctioning)
3.) I also do not know if blower and headlights worked properly at this point.
Installed new stereo
1.) Defrost switch buzzing stopped
2.) Blower and headlights worked.
3.) Car ran fine and stereo worked both without car running and with the car running.
4.) Drove several times a week during the day with stereo on and no problems noticed.
Rainy night
1.) Kids wanted to cruise/listen to music and go for ice cream. it was about a 15 minute drive we got damp getting into the car.
After driving for about 5 minutes the car started to fog up so we turned on the heat and front defroster (fan). After about another 5 minutes we decided to turn on the back defroster. About two minutes after switching it on we could smell faint electrical smell and after about another minute noticed the smoke. Shut radio and fan off. Smoke stopped.
2.) I drove the car home, it was just getting dark so I know I turned the lights on.
a.) I dont know if the lights were actually on
b.) Turned the fan on and my son said the smoke smell was getting stronger...shut fan off....drove home
Removed new stereo....fried wires on back pigtail...removed from harness
1.) Defrost switch buzzed....removed from its harness
2.) Noticed problem with gauges
3.) noticed problem with headlights.
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Great!
Exactly what I was looking for.
Need some time to digest it. Hopefully something worth while can come out of that.
If you've time, do 'break', clean and reconnect those ground connections with dielectric grease. It eliminates those as potential grounding issues. If you do that, do check the fan & headlights again. Also check high vs low headlights, but please examine the high/low switch for melt/burn damage first; usually presents near the connector.
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I cleaned battery posts.
tomorrow I will clean the grounds.
Is grounding to the AC bracket the best location?
Also the positive from the battery goes to a cluster near the Air pump that levels the car.
Ans the low/high headlight switch is on the column.
thank you
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Mine doesn't have the load leveling.
You usually want the connections between the alternator and the battery to be reasonable short, and of decent cable size for low resistance, so as much of the alternator's voltage possible/practical gets presented to the battery for charging it.
For the grounds, battery negative cable close enough to the alternator for the reason above, and to the starter due to the high current the starter draws when starting, again large cable; and to the body somewhere to ensure a good body ground.
So a nice thick ground cable going to the block near the starter takes care of the starter, and I believe you said there's something from the block to the body which would ensure the body is grounded, so that's borrowing the large cable from the battery neg to near the starter.
I wouldn't want to second guess the engineers who worked out the cable gauge requirements for the distance they're carrying a given current, without a problem that needs solving or someone has experience to improve something to avoid a problem or to get better/faster recharging or starting, etc.. That said, if you end up replacing a cable, it doesn't hurt to get a thicker cable for less resistance, particularly if you have a real cold season which uses more power with each start.
For example, a couple of the enhancements some Eagle owners choose to do provide shorter or better power. Using the GM ignition module so the coil can be provided full battery power all of the time (instead of through a ballast resistor when running) with the module limiting the current if necessary.
Installing relays for the low and high headlights, so the power driving the lamps doesn't loop back through the firewall to switches, and can have upgraded cable size with shorter runs from the relays to the lamps.
BUT, don't start changing things until you've got your problem fixed.
IF you find that a problem is with something that can be upgraded, consider if it's an upgrade you'd want, so you spend money once, instead of once for the fix, and a second time later for the upgrade. Of course that also depends on the $, now vs. later.
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p.s.
Do browse the Eaglepedia at http://amceaglesden.com/guide/index.php?title=Main_Page
for how to's
upgrades
etc.
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Great!
Exactly what I was looking for.
Need some time to digest it. Hopefully something worth while can come out of that.
If you've time, do 'break', clean and reconnect those ground connections with dielectric grease. It eliminates those as potential grounding issues. If you do that, do check the fan & headlights again. Also check high vs low headlights, but please examine the high/low switch for melt/burn damage first; usually presents near the connector.
dielectric grease is non conductive, just make sure to not put it on electric mating surfaces. its good to keep moisture out of connections, but not on contact points. something like Kopr-Shield is for electronic mating points. it keeps corrosion down while decreasing resistance.
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dielectric grease is non conductive, just make sure to not put it on electric mating surfaces. its good to keep moisture out of connections, but not on contact points. something like Kopr-Shield is for electronic mating points. it keeps corrosion down while decreasing resistance.
I'm not familiar with Kopr-Shield, but being non-conductive is exactly why I've been using dielectric grease on electrical contacts for over three decades. Blocks corrosion, particularly in the micro air gap between contact surfaces, and being non-conductive it can't creep and cause a short. I've never had a cleaned connection not work properly nor have any voltage nor current loss across the connection with dielectric grease applied.
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dielectric grease is an insulator. kopr-shield is a conductor. they have different purposes, so even though it sounds like dielectric is being misused it probably moves out of the way enough. now if that connection gets warm, it will tend to run, and possibly make matters worse.. if a conductive grease runs it will help knock out resistance on a bad ground. power wires are best left bare if near other power wires so they do not have runs to meet and conduct other near wires. that's pretty generic I know, just putting out a basic knowledge. you can research and see what you need to grow your own knowledge.
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From FLUKE website:
Bad Grounds
High resistance among grounds can be among the most frustrating of electrical
problems. They can produce bizarre symptoms that don't seem to have anything to
do with the cause, once you finally find it. The symptoms include lights that glow
dimly, lights that come on when others should, gauges that change when the
headlights are turned on, or lights that don't come on at all.
With the new computer systems, high resistance in ground wires and sensor leads
can produce all sorts of unpredictable symptoms. Apply silicone dielectric lubricant,
available at radio supply stores, to connections before you assemble them. This will
reduce corrosion. Pay particular attention to ground terminals in the vicinity of the
battery, where acid speeds corrosion. Often a wire that is corroded through except
for a few strands will produce the same symptom as a corroded ground connection.
Just looking at the insulated connector does not insure that the connection inside is
good. Physically disconnect connectors and use a wire brush or sand paper to "shine"
the metal connections.
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there is better is what I am getting at. applying to existing connections yes. mating surfaces no. so with dielectric grease you drown the top and surrounding area. however somthing like kopr-shield actually improves a connection and can be applied before making any connections to ground. than you can also drown the area making a better connection and help prevent corrosion.
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Hear you on that, I added as it also sounds like my problem with headlight and gauges. I just dont know how to locate the ground problem.
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Can anyone tell me in the picture of wiring diagram it shows "ground to s119" What does that number refer to and how can I find where s119 is?
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there is better is what I am getting at. applying to existing connections yes. mating surfaces no. so with dielectric grease you drown the top and surrounding area. however somthing like kopr-shield actually improves a connection and can be applied before making any connections to ground. than you can also drown the area making a better connection and help prevent corrosion.
If it works as you say, kopr-shield shouldn't harm a GROUND connection, and could be of benefit if it stays there to protect against corrosion - it would not be an acceptable substitute for a connection cleaned of corrosion (corrosion has resistance, and encourages more corrosion). As it is conductive, it would be unsafe to use on a positive connection, as if it creeps it could result in that connection shorting to ground.
For the most protection, dielectric grease is applied to mating surfaces - before connection - positive or ground, to prevent corrosion between the contacting surfaces. Not only does corrosion resistance steal voltage, enough corrosion with enough current flow, can generate enough heat to cause a fire. Note the Fluke instructions that include making the terminal "shiny" prior to application: remove 'trivial' surface oxidation for a superior connection. (Carrying both white and pink erasers was a given when doing IT hardware support.) Applying enough dielectric grease to a connector prior to assembly, also should cover the wires back to the insulation, inhibiting corrosion in those wires too. Stuffing some in/onto a connector after it's together is better than not doing that, but it is a considerable reduction in corrosion protection. The exception is a crimped connection, which should be as clean, shiny and dry as possible prior to crimping. (Proper crimping is a subject all on its own...)
I have yet to encounter a connection degraded, voltage or current, through the use of dielectric grease.
Dielectric grease on the spark plug wires has stopped many shorts in high-splash conditions, on a number of vehicles I've worked on. It's eliminated battery connections issues, provided it's applied prior to developing corrosion in the cable. After having to go back and clean or completely redo various connections too many times, I now use dielectric grease on positive, ground and in connectors, wherever possible. I've even applied it to spliced connections prior to encasing them with heat-shrink tubing. Saves me trouble and time fixing or chasing after problems.
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I'm very curious to know why that defroster switch was buzzing.
And if the high/low headlight switch (mounted forward/down from the lever that controls it) is working or showing signs of heat damage.
Speculating (not enough info to properly support this yet): I'm wondering if that defroster switch was somehow using the stock stereo's harness for some or a meaningful portion of its ground due to a degraded ground path that switch and hence defroster current was expected to use. Then if the new stereo install didn't provide, or adequately provide, enough of a ground path to work in parallel to a degraded defroster switch ground path, then turning on the defroster energizes the rear defroster ribbon, leaving its potential current draw searching for the easiest path to ground. Doesn't explain why/how those wires in the new stereo harness got that current draw, unless some how they shorted. I need to read back through and see if the stereo was running when the defroster was turned on, and if the stereo worked after that second try at the defroster.
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The stereo was on at the time the defrost switch was turned on and was working while its wires were smoking. Based on the condition of the burnt wires it wouldnt have stayed on much longer.
I dont know if i noted that on the stereo harness both the battery wire and accessory wire had in line fuses that did not trip.
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Does anyone know the best way to remove the dash so that I can start searching for bad wires?
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Does anyone know the best way to remove the dash so that I can start searching for bad wires?
PITA - leave that as a last resort. Remove the tray above feet if your '88 has such, and the lower/underside dash covers if they have them, and then you can look up under, by sticking your head in there, using a mirror, camera/phone, fibre-optic viewer, etc..
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The stereo was on at the time the defrost switch was turned on and was working while its wires were smoking. Based on the condition of the burnt wires it wouldnt have stayed on much longer.
I dont know if i noted that on the stereo harness both the battery wire and accessory wire had in line fuses that did not trip.
Now it's getting weird. The harness supplied with the stereo should be rated for its current draw, yet it melted down. And that takes a high current, yet the supplied fuses didn't blow. And the stereo continued working while that high insulation-melting current was travelling on those wires, so it's still getting a voltage it's happy enough to work with. With correctly speced wires, such flow starts with a voltage difference which is typically a Positive supply voltage (or a high enough drive output) shorted to ground, either directly or through a rather low resistance path (like a defrost ribbon); which typically drops the available voltage - yet the stereo kept working. And if the stereo's rail voltage dropped enough that the volume dropped, it wasn't enough that it was noticed (or didn't seem material?).
Have you checked the in-line fuses in the stereo harness to see their values, and if they're actually fuses and not placeholders?
I wonder if your defroster switch switches positive, ground or both. If you look at your rear defrost ribbon electrical attachments, do both wires look like they're wires returning to the front of the vehicle, or is there perhaps one that is attached to the body there for a ground? (at one of the hinge bolts?)
In your photo I'm seeing a melted blue wire and a melted orange wire, yet there seems to be a third collection of strands in that mix. From your drawing in another thread, under From Stereo I'm seeing Red - ACC/IGN, Yellow - Battery, and Blue - Power Antenna, and a Black - Ground. Is it correct that ACC/IGN, Power Antenna and Ground melted? Do you have a photo of that harness that shows all sections that show damage, even if minor?
(It's almost as though the Defroster circuit somehow managed to pull both Positive and Ground off of the stereo's Positive and Ground rails..., running both stereo & Defroster in parallel through that stereo harness.)
Lots of fun, as we're trying to determine what caused the problem, vs. what problems may also now present after damage from that high current flow.
Headlights: confirm that when the switch is pulled out, neither low headlights nor high headlights work? What about the parking/running lights? Dash/instrument lights & dimmer?
p.s.
On searching under the dash.
Before you start that search, you should check the high/low headlight switch (not its lever) and the fuse box.
You can pull the connector to the high/low switch and check continuity of the switch in both positions; hope the switch is already adjusted to the lever's travel properly.
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You can pull the instrument cluster out with out pulling the dash This would get you a good visual access to wires.
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Ok thanks, I'll try. Any idea how to remove the headlight switch?
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Canoe, the fuse for acc was a 5 amp and the battery wire was a P10A250v.
Also when looking at the stereo harness damage to me it appears it was the ground wire that heated up and then melted everything next to it
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in this picture it shows a wire block located behind the brake assist on firewall, maybe opposite of where headlight switch on inside. it looks and feels like there was melting where the wires go into it? does anyone know what this is?
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Canoe, the fuse for acc was a 5 amp and the battery wire was a P10A250v.
Also when looking at the stereo harness damage to me it appears it was the ground wire that heated up and then melted everything next to it
Ah ha!
The fuses not blowing supports that: over-current on the ground, no or regular current on the others.
Does that mean there's no sign of other damage along that harness?
Which brings us back to the possibility
... I'm wondering if that defroster switch was somehow using the stock stereo's harness for some or a meaningful portion of its ground due to a degraded ground path that switch and hence defroster current was expected to use. ...
Before you go pulling anything or do too much work tracing wires, you need to check that fuse box and the wires around it. Also the high/low switch.
Ok thanks, I'll try. Any idea how to remove the headlight switch?
The headlight switch (parking, headlights, .) or the high/low selection switch?
If the high/low, remove the connector going to it and get a visual on the switch. All the one's I've seen are white, and you can usually see over-current damage as melting or black. Check the continuity of the pins with the two positions selected by the lever. Often if there's heat damage it won't select properly; which can also happen if the switch has slipped in its mount so the lever may need to be adjusted first, which is actually an adjustment of the physical position of the high/low switch along the steering column. Hate to see you pull a working switch.
Check the eaglepedia for the TSM and look at the parts diagram to try and see the layout.
For the light switch, it's knob comes off (don't force - there's usually a clip at the back of the knob to press in to release it's tension on the switch shaft), there's a flat-nut holding the switch in, with the switch being a nasty reach up from behind. I've done it, but don't remember more than that.
Here's a curious one. With the new stereo pulled out, if you put the defroster switch back in now, does it buzz?
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in this picture it shows a wire block located behind the brake assist on firewall, maybe opposite of where headlight switch on inside. it looks and feels like there was melting where the wires go into it? does anyone know what this is?
The colours should match up with the wiring diagram.
Photo from pulled-back to better show the location in context?
With melting signs there, it doesn't necessarily mean it's to the point of not working or a risk. (BUT, it is enough of a risk that until this is sorted out, I wouldn't leave the battery connected, except while you're checking function)
Need to check the fuse box and that high/low switch.
Need to redo that ground connection under the hood to ensure there's a decent body ground.
Where we think we are now?: over-current on the ground of the new stereo harness melted it, and acc/ign and pwrAnt of that harness; the car's harness that plugged into does not show any heat/melting/burning damage (traced back to the fuse box?); defroster wiring or switch likely source of current that melted that ground wire; searching for other damage to explain the resulting failures/behaviour.
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Correct, no damage to harness leading back into car.
I will get a picture of that wire block further out it's tough because this website you can only load super small file sizes so I have to take the photo with my phone and then go reduce the size.
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well, attached is the more distant photo and........I removed that wire panel/harness and also attached the picture. Very melted. Now what?
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Not sure what that harness is called but it looks like it's where all the power comes into the inside of the car
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... I will get a picture of that wire block further out it's tough because this website you can only load super small file sizes so I have to take the photo with my phone and then go reduce the size.
Those low-res images and the bolt instead of the terminals in focus are rather difficult to work from.
I seem to be able to load higher res images.
https://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=46856.0;attach=5307;image
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Where to start...
Obviously damaged wires need to be resealed or replaced as required, with correct gauge automotive wire/cable (so the insulation matches its intended environment).
Seems obvious to want replace that connection with a harness or pigtails from a donor car.
But, if you can get new/repaired wires to it, and the connections are good, and you can get a seal against water infiltration, it may be usable. Problem is, everything could test fine after that work, but once it's going through the thermal cycling across actually running, and in various seasons, more problems could raise their head, or even start an electrical fire. So let's cross that off.
Now, if you get replacement connections from a donor car, and do a proper splice into your existing harness, that doesn't mean you're good to go. (Proper splice to NASA specs, rather than guess what is safe and reliable splice. They've been published and republished a number of times.). While we have reason to suspect the Defroster in some way, with this damage to that connector, it's a chicken & egg issue. Which caused which. Melting in that connector (or whatever caused that melting) may have set up the Defroster circuit to fail, taking out the stereo harness, and doing more damage, including melting that connector more. Or the Defroster current took out that connector (and what else?).
These are just my first thoughts, but think in terms of what repair could you trust to make the car safe & reliable. There's a reason various jurisdictions won't licence a vehicle for the road if it's a repair from an electrical fire. It looks like you were just shy of that. The repair has to be done right, and how do you know you've got everything. At the least, you'd have to sit down with an '88 electrical diagram and make a list of what needs replacing. Which means you'll have to trace everything on that harness. A reasonable volt/resistance/continuity meter is going to become a close friend.
Just to better know where you're at, check the fuse box and that high/low headlight switch.
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Thank you. Unfortunately we are probably out of range from what I can do. I really appreciate the help you have given. Any chance you know what that melted harness is called? Maybe someday I can hire someone to help me out with it.
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I don't know what that is referred to. I've not had issues with one in my Eagles.
Check the images in the Eaglepedia for parts names; TSM, Parts Catalog, wiring diagram.
Save those images to your computer, so you have them immediately on hand without having to be online.
Before you forget, or things change, document:
- Take good photos of everything you've checked. Not just the bad. Need to be in focus on the parts that count. Someone needs to be able to look at the photo and recognize what is up, without relying upon your words. (the photo of the melted wires & the melted connector are inadequate: need to be focus. Stereo harness needs to show the entire harness, including its entry into the stereo. You've examined the harness and say that it appears Ground melted first and melted the others, but we've not seen a photo where we could determine that from. Someone going to help you in the future would need a comprehensive photo or have to have the harness in hand. )
- Start a spreadsheet. List everything you've checked, give each a row. Have one column as a field/box for your observations. As in, Stereo harness, each wire gets a row, the wire purpose, colour; then your observations (Stereo harness - Battery - Yellow; fused P10A250v not blown, no sign of melting nor burning). This way you don't have to remember. Like your observation then your thoughts on why you think the Black/Ground wire melted first - not that it melted first; that it melted first is credible, but not proven. You need to differentiate between what appears to be a fact vs. what is a fact.
You need photos of the fuse box as you found it, before you start pulling anything out. Make sure to list the value of each fuse and its condition and its socket condition. With everything electrical, you don't want to be in the position of later going "Well, I think it was...". While a credible explanation for a portion is possible with what is known, we still don't know yet what happened first, nor even everything that happened or got damaged. Document.
No reason why you can't fix this. But you'll need a donor harness, or at least the portion that melted; may need to be from an '88. May be wise to find one sooner rather than later, while there's still a chance to find one.
Which is why you'd need a comprehensive list of what has melted or burnt, what has not, and parts you're unsure of or couldn't see.
You'd have to take the time to check every circuit. This is a PITA. No shortcuts. No jumping ahead. No assuming - check. You'd have to be very methodical.
Make sure you don't leave the car sitting with the battery connected.
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This is why this is too hard for me, I don't really understand wiring schematics or how to trace or test a circuit. The worst part is in the end I feel like I ruined this car for my kids putting in the stereo. All was fine before that point, at least it seemed so .
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well, attached is the more distant photo and........I removed that wire panel/harness and also attached the picture. Very melted. Now what?
I guess I'm missing something obvious, but I don't see anything melted in your first image. All I see is the black, tarry goop they used to seal the connector housing so water couldn't corrode the terminals. My '83 and '84 both had that same sealer in the main connectors.
David
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well, attached is the more distant photo and........I removed that wire panel/harness and also attached the picture. Very melted. Now what?
... I guess I'm missing something obvious, but I don't see anything melted in your first image. All I see is the black, tarry goop they used to seal the connector housing so water couldn't corrode the terminals. My '83 and '84 both had that same sealer in the main connectors. David
Could very well be. My first thought was dirty dielectric grease, but without a better photo, we have to rely upon OP's interpretation.
Need better photos. Showing the whole connector, but in focus on the terminals. Need to see signs of melting of terminals, alignment changed as their base belted, arcing, etc..
Hope that's the sealant.
> All was fine before that point, at least it seemed so .
Key there is "seemed so". Something could have been damaged in that install, resulting in the Defroster switch putting something (like supply power or its return from the defrosting ribbon) to ground. But it could be a prior deficiency or damage that worked with the stock stereo/harness, but was aggravated during the new install and/or was too much for the new setup. While suspicious, as it appeared to work before, there's not enough info. And it's not like you have 10 years of "defroster switch & defrosting worked fine without problem" as a history.
You've shown us photos of what you think is wrong, but not of what is there. Like showing us the melted portion of the stereo harness instead of showing an infocus of the whole harness. You're "filtering" what we see and giving us your interpretation. Photos infocus & hi-res gives us "raw data".
I'd say your number one priority on this is to find out how to post photos in a resolution similar to the one I gave the link to.
You jumped ahead to that connector, but we need to see:
Show the fuse box. In focus. Not low res.
Want to know what is up with the high/low light switch. Photo.
Would still like to see the whole stereo harness to the new stereo. There may be fine signs along it or where it enters the stereo, be it a chassis plug or wires. For the Ground melting, it had high current on it, possibly a short, but where did that current enter the wire.
Wires & connector to the Defroster switch.
So you're going to learn how to trace a schematic. That's got to be covered somewhere on the web. You can start by thinking of it as a garden hose, delivering water (power) from one place/thing to another; and with water pressure (potential / voltage) and water flow (current). (Technically all our electrical is backwards, as it's electron flow which is negative, so the actual flow is the reverse of how we think of it. This will not matter for what you're doing; you're not building an interface to an undebscribed Chinese board that has a positive ground.)
And how to measure voltage & resistance with a multi-meter, and use its continuity setting (if not using resistance as a substitute).
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Ok. Let me digest this. If a moderator reads this maybe they have an idea why high res pics won't ror.err
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I will inspect connector closer to see if it indeed is sealant
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Ok. Let me digest this. If a moderator reads this maybe they have an idea why high res pics won't ror.err
The maximum size for photos is 5120KB or 5MB if I need to increase the maximum size, please let me know.
What is the photo size?
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3.6MB
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3.6MB
Here's my try to load the photo you emailed me.
Failed for original 3.42 MB, 4032x3024.
Retrying for resized 1.25 MB, compression 8, 3629x2722.
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well, attached is the more distant photo and........I removed that wire panel/harness and also attached the picture. Very melted. Now what?
I guess I'm missing something obvious, but I don't see anything melted in your first image. All I see is the black, tarry goop they used to seal the connector housing so water couldn't corrode the terminals. My '83 and '84 both had that same sealer in the main connectors.
David
framedoctor in emailing pic to me
I believe that djm3452004 is correct, that what I thought was melted was actually a tar like sealant
So, back to wanting photos for fuse box, high-low switch, new stereo harness.
Still: don't leave the battery connected when you're not right there testing.
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The new uploaded photo is little blurry unless you touch it to open it in a separate window then the high res seems to be there
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... If you look at your rear defrost ribbon electrical attachments, do both wires look like they're wires returning to the front of the vehicle, or is there perhaps one that is attached to the body there for a ground? (at one of the hinge bolts?) ...
The cut-up schematic is showing the defrost ribbon grounding near the ribbon. Can you confirm?
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The new uploaded photo is little blurry unless you touch it to open it in a separate window then the high res seems to be there
Note the threaded bolt is nice and sharp, with the terminals less so. Where it locks the focus on something like that in the centre, try putting the centre onto what you actually want sharply in focus, let it focus and take the image (lots of resolution to crop it as you want; seems to need a smaller pixel count to load anyway), or let it focus and re-frame the image as you like before you take the shot.
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Looks like the terminal that bolts to the firewall might have a crack in it. Or is my eyesight that bad?
Also I increased the photo maximum size. Hopefully that helps. Not sure why a photo less than 4mb did not load. The only information they error log gives is that it is taking longer to load or is bigger than the server will allow?
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More photos emailed
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seems to be reducing the dimension to 4000x gets it accepted
I'm also stripping out the EXIF info
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was a centre rear brake light stock on Eagles at some point?
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Fuse box looks pretty good, I think better than mine. Mine is attached for comparison.
I would question the connection at the rear hatch for the defroster. Also, I don’t think any AMC’s had the third brake light.
Edit, they were mandated in 1986.
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The third brake light looks to be after market. My father in laws father, was a mechanic, this was his car originally, he may have added the light. Tomorrow I will post a pic of the dash box for that third brake light.
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TAYLOR, is there a fuse for the headlights? I dont see it labeled.
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There is no fuse for the headlights the switch has internal contacts that if two much current draw (heat) opens the contacts in the switch and close again when it cools back down. Thats where the relay mod for the lights come in handy not all the current is directed through the switch,
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rmick, didn’t know that. Interesting!
Here is the wiring schematic. Hopefully this can help too.
http://amceaglesden.com/guide/Lighting_Wiring_Schematic
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rmick, how do i remove the switch to look for damage?
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rmick, how do i remove the switch to look for damage?
The light switch can be damaged, but not often.
The high/low switch is well known for heat/melting damage. And it's a lot easier to get at than the light switch.
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rmick, how do i remove the switch to look for damage?
http://amceaglesden.com/guide/Headlight_Switch_Replacement
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Taylor, the terminal that bolts to the firewall is not cracked...its kind of an illusion with the sealant covering the gaps.
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rmick, does this pic look like the haedlight relay modification was already done to my car? Hopefully the picture loads.
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canoe, harness pic. new stero to old stereo which would then plug into harness from car.
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Taylor, the terminal that bolts to the firewall is not cracked...its kind of an illusion with the sealant covering the gaps.
Good news. Have you tried to clean off the sealant to check for corrosion?
I wonder if adding a ground specific to the radio would help? Someone with better electric experience might have a idea on this one.
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The connectors did not show signs of corrosion, so the connector is bolted back on for now. I will try to check high/low switch per canoe to look for any thing obvious. i think I had seen somewhere how to access the high low switch on the column.
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This is the kind of work ( electronic ) that gives me a migraine. I spent all winter and half the spring ( minimum 5 months ) upgrading my ignition and cleaning up the bad wiring under the hood. Cleaned all the grounds etc.
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Yes that looks like the relay mod. You can reconnect the fire wall connector and check to see if you have power from the switch to the relays the headlights should be getting power from the battery directly or from the power side of the starter relay trough the relays. The head light switch controls the relay so all the power for the headlights dont go through the switch. Make sure these are related to the head lights here is the harness I used had to swap a couple of pins and installed better relays.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceramic-H4-Headlight-Relay-Wiring-Harness-4-Headlamp-Light-Socket-Fix-Dim-Light/231561377196?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D227684%26meid%3D9c52cb69da284a6bb99c0ff1b4550816%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D12%26mehot%3Dco%26sd%3D131523593605%26itm%3D231561377196%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWebWithBBEV2bGenderDemotion%26brand%3DOEM&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851
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Can anyone tell me where the headlights are actually grounded to where the location is
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The third brake light looks to be after market. My father in laws father, was a mechanic, this was his car originally, he may have added the light. Tomorrow I will post a pic of the dash box for that third brake light.
This box is likely for controlling electric brakes on a trailer.
canoe, harness pic. new stero to old stereo which would then plug into harness from car.
That's what I'm looking for, but in high res so I can check for the faults I suspect. How are those wires joined under that electrical tape?
... I wonder if adding a ground specific to the radio would help? Someone with better electric experience might have a idea on this one.
The old radio worked. So its ground was good. The new radio worked. So its ground was good.
When the rear electric defroster was turned on, it somehow put high current onto the ground within that modified harness.
Apart from finding and fixing that connection, it's not a good idea to be providing alternate paths for current to flow, as that can have unintended consequences.
Sometimes one can identify a better way to do things, like using headlight relays to avoid bringing that higher current across the firewall and running through switches. But that has to be done right.
This car has had portions of its electrical system changed. Prior to the recent modification of the stereo connection, as far as is known, there were no faults noticed. That's a task to figure out with the various mods what was intended vs. what was done, and if that has caused or taken any damage. I would put that on hold right now. Don't change anything, or you're making a moving target. Or worse, things start working, and you think you've fix the problem, but you've just provided an alternate current path and left the original fault undetected lurking to cause further, possibly worse, damage down the road.
The original incident involved the new stereo, the modified stereo connections and turning the rear defroster on. Those need to be thoroughly checked. Like checking the wiring connections to the rear defroster - were they changed from stock. What are they now (where does it ground). The ground wire for the stereo has to be checked back to its grounding and repaired as necessary.
Before the battery is connected, the ground to the car's body under the hood should be disconnected, cleaned and re-established to remove this common fault point from the situation. Do not skip this if the connection looks good; a number of cars that appeared to have a good ground connection had hidden corrosion (use dielectric grease to reduce this risk), that once cleaned and reconnected, returned the car to operating normally. If that cable/wire/strap's wires are corroded badly, that should be replaced as it may not be able to properly handle the required current or may be degraded enough that it's acting as a resistor. A replacement should be a sealed cable, like battery ground cables, so the wires are protected from corrosion.
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... I will try to check high/low switch per canoe to look for any thing obvious. i think I had seen somewhere how to access the high low switch on the column.
Need to remove the lower dash cover below the steering column. Switch is ~10 to ~12 inches forward of its control lever, at around 11 o'clock on the column.
... high/low headlight switch. It's the number one cause of failed headlights, which you report, and they're notorious for melting, and we've got stray current melting things. Check the control lever. Does it switch/click from one position to another: if not, it may have failed (usually melted inside somewhere) or it may need adjustment. Its two fasteners allow its position to be adjusted up/down the steering column such that the control lever can switch it.
If it's switching/clicking, pull the connector out of the socket on the switch. Does the switch anywhere along its length (not just in the socket) look melted or black. Give us a photo of that whole switch - lots of us have seen this fault before and should recognize it. If the switch does click/switch, check the continuity of the pins. Use a multimeter, its continuity circuit or its resistance circuit. Either will show which of the three pins are connected to which pins within the switch, for each of the two switch positions.
Removed old stereo
1.) Noticed defroster switch buzzed in on position.
I missed the "in on position". That buzzing may have been the defrost timer.
Here's a curious one. With the new stereo pulled out, if you put the defroster switch back in now, does it buzz?
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The defroster buzzer only went on when either stereo was not in
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The defroster buzzer only went on when either stereo was not in
But only when you also turned the switch on?
With the stereo & harness still out, have you put that switch back in? Does it buzz, off? On?
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Yes with the stereo and harness out it still buzzes
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As for the headlight ground, the only one I know of directly connected to that circuit is behind and somewhat below the driver side low beam bulb. There might be one for the switch but I don’t know.
As for the two relays on the left fender, I believe 1 is for the manifold heater and the other should be for the horn.
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Below is a pic of the hi/low switch? I believe.
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Hopefully higher res on this one.
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Yes with the stereo and harness out it still buzzes
> With the stereo & harness still out, have you put that switch back in? Does it buzz, off? On?
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Below is a pic of the hi/low switch? I believe.
Looks like the right spot on the column, and it's got three terminals on the connector, and it's got a rod coming in from the right. ~edit:But, it's not like the one's on my Eagles; no fasteners to adjust it up/down the column to adjust the lever-to-switch input.
Does the lever feel & sound like it's switching?
Connector out, is there continuity between pins? Does that change when the lever switches it?
Additionally, you can test the connector (which is really testing the rest of the headlight circuit, as this bypasses the hi/lo switch). Do this wrong, and you could do damage. With the connector out, and the light switch off, (and if you've any doubts, with the battery disconnected), put a jumper wire between
framedoctor's continuity is different from what I remember
the middle connector slot and another slot. Jump the centre to one slot should give you low beams; centre jumped to the slot on the other side of the centre slot should give you low & high beams.
two of the pins will give you low beams; another two pins give you low & high beams.
I've used part of a thick paperclip for the jumper. The jumper sticking out is LIVE when you turn the light switch on, so you HAVE to ensure it cannot touch anything else. It is worth taping this to ensure that can't happen.
(This is also a work around to get headlights when the low/high switch burns out, while you chase down a replacement switch.)
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Hopefully higher res on this one.
Well, this one is 777x338.
The first one was 819x425.
So, no, not any more resolution/detail.
If you'd like, just email me the original from the phone. I can constrain it to 4000x and strip the EXIF out and post it.
Related,
... How are those wires joined under that electrical tape? ...
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... But, it's not like the one's on my Eagles; no fasteners to adjust it up/down the column to adjust the lever-to-switch input. ...
Just a different switch construction. Adjusts just the same. The lower fastner is visible in your image. The higher fastner is hidden to the right. (I had to look at the parts catalog in the Eaglepedia before that twigged.)
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I checked the high low switch for continuity and I have continuity from the top pin to the bottom left and then after switching the high low the continuity switches to the other pin
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I was also able to locate the ground for the rear defrost and it was indeed near the ribbon. I cleaned it up and reattached, however it did not change my gauge problem.
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So you're still testing with power for your guage problem, which is still present, but you don't mention if the headlight issue is still present.
have you redone the body ground yet?
https://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=46908.msg362234#msg362234
Before the battery is connected, the ground to the car's body under the hood should be disconnected, cleaned and re-established to remove this common fault point from the situation. Do not skip this if the connection looks good; a number of cars that appeared to have a good ground connection had hidden corrosion (use dielectric grease to reduce this risk), that once cleaned and reconnected, returned the car to operating normally. If that cable/wire/strap's wires are corroded badly, that should be replaced as it may not be able to properly handle the required current or may be degraded enough that it's acting as a resistor. A replacement should be a sealed cable, like battery ground cables, so the wires are protected from corrosion.
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I have the ground strap to redo. The ground on the firewall for cluster was redone, I added ground from negative battery to body, and the defroster ground redone. Headlights still do not come on and headlights and blower still make gauges wacky.
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There's a ground point on the firewall, in the engine bay, between the brake booster and the back of the engine valve cover, that caused me some grief on my '87 sedan years ago. (I forget what the symptoms were but they were wonky.) You'll see one or more small black wires grounded there. It may not be your culprit but it wouldn't hurt to refresh the point.
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Mitch, I did find that one after reading your original post about it I think, I did refresh it with fingers crossed to no avail. Thank you though.
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close image of stereo harness damage
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We've been doing some gathering and thinking offline through emails.
Attached are photos of:
- the modified stereo harness
- closeup of its splices with electrical tape unwrapped
- Defroster switch connector
Seen:
- Above the harness splices, the new stereo black ground wire shows a cut & break fault in the insulation.
- The old ground wire below the splice did not melt.
- The new ground wire from the splice to that fault did not melt. Its portion closest to the ferrule shows some heat damage to the insulation from solder wicking up the wire, but the insulation beyond that to the fault is in good condition, with little if any melting of the crispness of the cut & break fault.
- Melting damage is from high current flow in the new ground wire from that fault along to the new stereo connector.
- Framedoctor's examination of the harness makes him believe that it was that ground wire that provided the heat that melted the other wires, due to their proximity.
- It appears that the current that melted that ground wire insulation either entered or exited at that fault, and either flowed to or from the ground pin in the new stereo connector.
- Burning smell occured when the Defroster was switched on. There was current somehow shorted into that harness ground wire from the Defroster switch on/off|timing circuit board, its switched output to the defroster or that switched path's related connector or harness.
- From the lack of melting in the old harness ground wire and the short portion with no heat damage in the new harness ground wire from the fault towards the splice:
- no shorting current flowed down the old harness ground wire into the vehicle harness (implying a fault in that ground path that existed prior to turning on defrosting), or
- that flow was of very short duration and caused a fault in that ground path (fuse on ground to protect the harness and/or prevent fire?), ending shorting current flow in that direction. (Given the change in the headlight & gauge behaviour pre-/post-melting, I think this is highly likely.)
Which means that all or the bulk of the high current short ended up entering the melted portion of the ground wire, either:
- (mostly likely) at that fault and flowed to the new stereo connector's ground pin (and likely grounded to the new stereo chassis, hence through its mounting to vehicle ground)
(it may have temporarily (also) flowed down the stereo harness into the vehicle harness, damaging that path to ground, leaving shorting current to flow the other direction to the new stereo, its chassis, to vehicle ground), or alternately - (possibly? this would be a real stretch...) the short somehow ended up at the new stereo's chassis, but the chassis didn't have a path to ground, leaving current to flow out the stereo connector and down its ground wire to that fault which had contact with something providing a path to ground.
(The vehicle harness's path to ground may have been degraded or damaged (pre-existing or from initial shorting current flow), leaving the fault with a ground path as a better or only path to ground.)
The Defroster switch connector has four connecting tabs, each with a different colour.
- Black: negative|ground
- Red: + 12 VDC
- Brown (behind blue in photo): switched with ACC, +12 VDC Vacc
- Blue: must be the switched output (note exposed conductor, and what looks like remelted solder on the switch circuilt board in an earlier photo)
The switched output goes to two blue wires. One obviously to the rear hatch window's defroster ribbon & wires. Does anyone know where the other defroster wire would be going on this '88 wagon?
Framedoctor is exploring the new stereo, its mounting box, the stereo harness and the Defroster switch for clues as to what that fault in the harness ground wire could have reached.
Framedoctor has added a battery cable from the battery negative terminal to the vehicle body for a vehicle ground. He's also replaced the ground strap from the block to the vehicle body with a battery cable with sealed cable ends, so they can't corrode in the future.
(server is refusing the three photos, each under the specified size; will load them one per post)
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stereo harness split & fault
server won't accept this file
jpg
2118 x 2985
2.56 MB
it's smaller in dimensions and in storage size than other images it has accepted and loaded
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Defroster switch connector
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cropped to make it different, 1871x2786 2.17 MB, trying again
Stereo harness slices & fault
Your attachment couldn't be saved. This might happen because it took too long to upload or the file is bigger than the server will allow.
Please consult your server administrator for more information.
rotated image into landscape mode, trying again
stereo harness with slices and fault
Your attachment couldn't be saved. This might happen because it took too long to upload or the file is bigger than the server will allow.
Please consult your server administrator for more information.
They're smaller in dimensions and storage than other images that were accepted. Although the system responds very quickly, I guess it's slower than it will accept. I'll try again later.
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tried the same file again, still wouldn't take it
trying again, with more image compression that got the file size down to 1.92 MB
stereo harness with some splices & the fault
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stereo harness split & fault
server won't accept this file
jpg
2118 x 2985
2.56 MB
it's smaller in dimensions and in storage size than other images it has accepted and loaded
Odd the server didn’t accept the file, being a jpg and well less than 7MB
I’ll try and get a answer from tech support on this. Seems to happen to often and I figured increasing the maximum file size would have fixed it. Obviously I was mistaken. Thanks for letting me know.
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Before you raised it to 7 MB, I had to reduce the dimensions to at or under 4000x4000, and strip out the jpg EXIF info. These files are that. Plus the jpg comments stripped off too.
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This is the last error in today’s error log.
“ Your attachment couldn't be saved. This might happen because it took too long to upload or the file is bigger than the server will allow”
My guess, the server connection was just slow. Timed out maybe? The photo size seemed fine.
Not sure why it keeps doing that. I doubt I will get a answer back from tech support before Monday or Tuesday. If you want, try and send the photo to me and I can give it a should if you want.
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Each time the response was very fast. Well, it was fast to tell me it took too long or it couldn't do it.
And, I see that the last time, although it showed me the same error message, I can now see that uploaded file in that post.
https://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=46908.msg362383#msg362383
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Odd the server would do that :banghead:
From the looks of the last photo, the black wire, ground? Looks badly burned, and not from solder. The blue one also looks burned or at least way overheated.
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... From the looks of the last photo, the black wire, ground? Looks badly burned, and not from solder. The blue one also looks burned or at least way overheated.
Framedoctor examined it closely before it fell apart. He feels it was the black ground wire that heated and melted its insulation, and also melted the other wires close to it.
Look at the surface texture of the new ground wire, you can see the heat damage in the section closest to the ferrule where the solder wicked up the strands, then a shorter good section.