Hi everyone! This is my first time posting here, and it's probably going to be a bit of a novel, so sorry about the length. A few weeks ago I bought an '87 eagle wagon from a fellow who had found it in a garage. Apparently the previous owner had passed away, leaving it to his wife. His wife then sold it to the guy I bought it from. Based on the inspection stickers on the windshield, it hasn't been on the road since 08-09.
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I've been working on trying to get the car started the last few weekends "(Weekend" for me btw means Sunday and Monday, I work in Retail and after much bargaining with mgmt that's as close to a weekend as I could get :P ). First I did all the normal tune up things:Battery, Plugs, wires, dizzy cap and rotor, fuel filter and I changed the oil (even though the guy I bought it form had changed it already). The guy I got it from had also already drained the tank so I put about 5 gallons of fresh 93 octane in. Upon trying to start it, I found that no fuel was getting to the carb (dry filter) , so I took off the fuel line to the tank and attached a small piece of hose in its place going to a container of gas under the hood. Still no fuel. So I replaced the fuel pump with an OEM carter unit that I bought on amazon with all the tune up stuff, just because I figured I might need it. I cranked it over a few times and I now I have fuel flow.
Also, upon changing the plugs, I found that the #5 plug to be very badly damaged, it almost looked like it had exploded and the electrode was completely gone. So i fished around with a magnet on a stick and removed as much debris as I could, then used a shop vac with a piece of aquarium hose attached to try and remove anything else. After all that I left the #5 plug out and tried to start the engine (figuring if it did start, it might blow any remaining pieces of spark plug out the plug hole). It backfired and sputtered and burped a few times and tried to start, but didn't. with the plug out I checked for spark, it was weak, yellow and very intermittent. I checked it at the coil and found the same thing. Noticing that the coil was an OEM part (stamped AMC), I figured that was the problem so I ordered a new one. It was also at this time that I noticed the Ignition module was very warm.
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Fast forward to yesterday, I install the new coil and now the spark is gone, entirely. I try to crank over the engine and I get no backfires or sputters at all. I feel the ignition module and it's cold, not like it had been. I swap the old coil on and have the exact same result. So I pull the ignition module and find that the epoxy potting on the back has two very pronounced scorch marks, so it looks like I roached it.
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After a little trouble finding the right part at my local Advance Auto Parts (my Eagle has the ignition module with the '88 style connectors so the part listed for '87 didn't fit and they don't have have '88 Eagle in their computer so I asked for one from an 88 Wrangler, which ended up being the right part but for some reason cost $40 more) I install a new module and a new ignition solenoid while I'm at it. With lots of shiny new parts bolted to the Passenger-side fender I try to start the Eagle again. It makes probably the best effort so far, lots of sputters and pops and backfiring, but it just doesn't catch.
So today, after letting the the trickle charger do its thing over night, I come out and give it another go. My neighbor across the street offers to help and we hook up some jumper cables from his truck so the battery doesn't die, figuring a few extra cold cranking amps couldn't hurt. We give it a few good tries and a few sprays with starter fluid and the result is still the same, pops, burps, backfires and sputters, except this time smoke starts coming out of the split loom wiring conduit that goes up along the passenger side fender into the cabin. I pull the conduit off, and only one wire is hot: a red wire with a green stripe that goes from the starter solenoid to the firewall. According to my FSM it looks like this wire eventually provides extra juice to the coil after going through some sort of resistor.
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So that's where I'm at now. I think the problem may be the resistor is bad causing that cable to have too much resistance on it which is then causing the spark problem. does anybody know how to get at the resistor (FSM isn't too helpful in that regard) or is it safe to bypass it completely?
I also have another hypothesis: The starter on this car sounds weak to me. This is my first AMC, I've only ever really worked on fords prior to this, but the starter just sounds kind off to me, like it's not turning the motor fast enough. Could it be possible that the Starter is just pulling too many amps, thereby starving the coil while simultaneously not turning the motor fast enough to fire?
Also, Luna the dog says hi. She apparently likes watching me work.
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I think the dog was hoping it was having a picture taken for its drivers iicence :rotfl: as you may know that is a ford starter. So if your used to the disconnected starter solenoid systems from a ford it should sound the same. You might want to try a tfi upgrade and a n u t t e r ecm test.
Eagle starter and ignition are similar to similar year Ford units. Don't know where that wire goes to but older year power wires from switch to ignition are yellow. You need the resistor or a resistor coil or you will burn out your ignition module. You should have 12 volts to coil when starting and then go to the resistor circuit when switch is in run and have about 6 volts.
TFI is REALLY A Must or HEI. I like the simplicity of tfi. Have you made sure the guy before you didn't like change the plug wires and put them in reverse order or something? id remove them all and reinstall them your self.
Hmm, I wasn't aware the starter was a ford unit. Actually, the blue econoline in the first picture is also an '87, and its starter motor sounds much snappier than the Eagle's. That makes me think the problem, or part of it anyway, is the starter.
EagleEarl, It does have the yellow wire going directly to the coil from the solenoid. I measured that at only 10v, but that was before I swapped the ignition module and solenoid. I believe the wire that got hot and started melting its insulation was the resistor circuit, I'm just not sure where that resistor or resistor coil is physically located, but it looks like I'll need to find that and inspect it.
Mudkicker, I was thinking about doing n u t t e r thing, but I didn't want to mess with the stepper motor on the carb until after I got it running, and I've read that it needs to be in the full rich position. I feel like it be a good idea to yank the carb off and at least clean it out real good anyways though, so I might just do that. It's funny you mentioned TFI as well, because while troubleshooting the coil I did briefly consider ripping the coil out of the van, but I didn't precisely because it has the TFI ignition. Too bad it's a 302 and not the ford I6, It sounds like I could have borrowed everything I would have needed to try it.
AMCLover, we did the plug wires last weekend with the rest of the tune up items. I did think maybe I had screwed them up, but I double, then triple checked the firing order with the FSM yesterday and they're definitely correct. It woulda been nice if that's all it was though ;)
Just do not try your ford starter on a. Amc it is a different throw.
I had a 90 yj that had a Mitsubishi starer on it, and the current 87 mj also has a similar looking stater on it. and it appears to have been built right before the buyout. I am wondering if amc didn't start a changeover on some of their vehicles. I am interested to know what the 87 - 88 eagles had been equipped with.
ford is a huge starter like what was used in their cars and pickups in the 70 -80s while the other design appears to be reduced in size of the starter motor. now another thing I noticed is the carter bbd equipped cars are wired goofy compared to a ford or amc 360. instead of the ignition timing being controlled by the Duraspark ignition module box, the ecm for the carb can play with the ignition timing instead to reduce ping. I noticed that with the ecm unhooked, the ignition is lost as well. so it may be an issue with the ecm as well.
My '87 sedan, with a build date of March 20, '87, has a Ford style starter.
Thanks for the heads up Mudkicker, I'll be honest the thought of doing that did cross my mind.
1985AMCEagle, does the mitsu/small starter on your yj and mj sound kind of anemic compared to the ford starter? Just curious incase mine does have that style. I'll have to get under it and check, I might have a bit of daylight after work tomorrow. I did also wonder about the ECM causing greif, which is why I was considering the n u t t e r bypass. From my understanding, the n u t t e r bypass should allow me to use the normal ignition module while taking the ECM out of the loop.
First pic is Ford style (fender mounted solenoid)
2nd pic is 4.0L style used in '88+ Jeep and some '87/88 Eagles with starter mounted solenoid.
Got a chance to take a look today and under all the caked on crap it looks like it's the ford starter. I apologize for the quality of the photo, I didn't have my handy dandy SLR with me and had to use my junky old phone to take the picture.
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So given that it is the ford starter, and I know what one of those should sound like and to me this one sounds slow; I think I'm going to pull it this sunday and at the very least have it bench tested up at NAPA, and clean up the contacts on the starter wire really good. There's also a place nearby called Arlington Armature that rebuilds starters and alternators for industrial fleets so I might see if they'd be willing to rebuild mine as opposed to buying a parts store reman.
Quote from: djohnston89 on November 17, 2014, 07:18:49 PM
Thanks for the heads up Mudkicker, I'll be honest the thought of doing that did cross my mind.
1985AMCEagle, does the mitsu/small starter on your yj and mj sound kind of anemic compared to the ford starter? Just curious incase mine does have that style. I'll have to get under it and check, I might have a bit of daylight after work tomorrow. I did also wonder about the ECM causing greif, which is why I was considering the n u t t e r bypass. From my understanding, the n u t t e r bypass should allow me to use the normal ignition module while taking the ECM out of the loop.
as far as I can tell, I think they sound like an 80's Toyota, and not anything close to what the big three offered. I haven't done the ECM Test yet myself, but that may be in the future for me as well as I am missing half of my emissions vacuum lines, and I don't think the computer is getting all of its needed information
Slow turning over is tested like this: Only at X temp? Cold means check battery voltage drop while cranking. Less than 10 volts cold means time for a new battery. Hot usually means either timing too far advanced or the starter nose bushing is badly worn. (or both) If you know someone with a good AMC starter nose, you could test your ability to put a bushing in. I have a press now, but I used to do it with an old, dead armature and a vise ir gently tap it in with a hammer. (using an old starter for practice keeps your car from being dead if you screw up)
The test out of the car is for side to side movement of the armature in the nose bushing. It needs to be just tight enough that it's not dragging. I also do a volt drop test of the battery cables. With a voltmeter set on 20 (or 12 if you can find one) you hook the meter to clean surface of the negative battery clamp and the engine block while someone cranks. Check again straight to the negative battery post. More than 1 volt in the first test means high resistance, loose connection or corroded battery post. If there is more than 1/2 volt difference between the first and second test, it's the battery post that is corroded inside the clamp. Gray paste is lead oxide which is a poor conductor/high resistance to power flow.
Do the same test from battery positive clamp to solenoid post, then from the battery post. (It may spike very high, so clean the post and clamp first) Watch for arcs are the solenoid. Probably 1/2 the Jeeps I bought with "starting problems" were loose or corroded solenoid terminals.
It has been quite cold every day I've had to try and start it, which I'm sure isn't helping. The battery is new, but it was the last one Advance Auto had on the shelf in that group size, so I wouldn't be totally surprised if that turned out to be the problem. I'll do the voltage drop test you suggested Carnuck, and return the battery if need be (hope I can remember what I did with the receipt :o ). The Solenoid is new, I replaced that when I replaced the ignition module, because it was right there and I didn't want to make another trip the parts store if that was the problem, but I'll check it as well.
Now I just need Sunday to hurry up and get here :P
I just had a terrible thought; what if something is horribly wrong with the valve train? Specifically in relation to the state of that spark plug I pulled out of the #5 cylinder. I guess I'll pull the valve cover on Sunday as well and crank it over by hand to make sure everything that should move, does move.
That would be a good idea.
Removed the valve cover today and found exactly what I was hoping not to; broken springs on both the #4 and #5 rockers.
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Along with the broken pieces of spring and washers, I found this plastic piece floating around in there. Anyone have any idea what it might be?
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So I picked up some new valve springs at NAPA, I'll probably end up having to pull the head off but I figured I might as well try changing just the springs and giving that a shot first. I also picked up a new starter, just incase it needs it. What I'm most curious about is how this might have happened. I did find that the valve cover had been installed with only RTV and without a gasket and that a large blob of RTV had gotten on rocker closest to the firewall, but I wouldn't think that could cause something like broken springs.
That plastic thing is the valve seal
Check all your push rods too, make sure they didn't get bent during all of that.
Are the broken ones intake or exhaust valves? It could be way out of time maybe
Is this the same one that had the chewed up spark plug?
Did you use any kind of either spray to get it started? Did that once and bent a valve, never again.....
Looks like it's the intake valve on #5 (which is the same one I pulled the chewed up spark plug out of) and exhaust on #4 that have broken springs. The more I think about it, the more I think I'd better just go ahead and pull the head.
We did use starting fluid to try and start it, but I can't imagine that would cause two springs to snap :o
Look down the spark plug hole and see if there is any damage. May have been stuck valves. Common on the plastic cover heads.
Yeah, sorry you found what you did. You are right to pull the head and see if there is any more damage and fix those valves .
Hopefully the piston in there looks ok , fingers crossed
I would look down the plug holes for damage first. If there is, it's rebuild time.
I broke a valve spring, but the retainer stayed on and no other damage occurred. Since your retainer is off, there is a good possibility the valve is bent since it is still hanging in the guide and not down in the cylinder. You can always put the springs on and give it a try. See how easy the valve moves up and down if at all in the guide without dropping into the cylinder.
Tried looking in the plug hole, couldn't really see much. nothing that jumped out at me anyway. My eyesight isn't fantastic though, so that might have something to do with it. The valves do indeed appear to be bent, the one with the broken spring on #4 doesn't move at all. Started taking things apart today to pull the head, and once I removed the carb I found more evidence of carnage:
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Appears to be cast aluminum; it's nonmagnetic and very light.
That's a piston skirt.
Yup that's part of a piston all right. Looks like a rebuid on the horizon to me. Sorry!
Now you can not only do the 4.0L head swap, you can swap in the whole motor too!
Quote from: carnuck on November 24, 2014, 03:24:24 PM
Now you can not only do the 4.0L head swap, you can swap in the whole motor too!
I agree. I would not invest time and money in a 258 unless your intent is to keep your Eagle bone-stock.
You can also use your 258 crank in a 4.0 block to make a stroker of about 4.6 litres.
Wow, I wonder how that made it all the way into the intake? Somebody must have been very mean to this motor, it's only got about 90k on the clock and the generally excellent condition of the body and the interior seems to support that number.
Welp, I did consider this possibility when I bought it and figured worst case scenario I could throw a crate motor at it. I think I will probably go the 4.0 route route and stick a motorcraft carb on. Luckily since it's over 25, it's emissions exempt here so I can keep things as simple as possible. Is there any specific crate 4.0 that anyone would recommend, or does anyone know a good engine builder near Northern VA?
Photobucket keeps suggesting I make christmas cards out of the pictures I upload.
I couldn't resist. ;)
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Ouch, sorry about that, yep it's 4.0 time
There are lots of them available from rebuilders, very common. You could also find a good used one. I bought a used one with 80k miles on it pretty cheap and we put it in a gremlin my dad and I are working on. Used the intake off the 258 and motorcraft carb and HEI dist.
The hardest part was a fuel pump, had to add an electric one as 4.0's don't have a place for the mechanical one. Othe than that everything else bolted right into place
Quote from: eaglebeek on November 24, 2014, 04:45:35 PM
Quote from: carnuck on November 24, 2014, 03:24:24 PM
Now you can not only do the 4.0L head swap, you can swap in the whole motor too!
I agree. I would not invest time and money in a 258 unless your intent is to keep your Eagle bone-stock.
You can also use your 258 crank in a 4.0 block to make a stroker of about 4.6 litres.
sorry to see about the state of your 258, I also am one that would not bother with a 258. the 4.0, even in renix form, seems to be a way better engine. I just haven't had one that was carbbed yet. they seem to have a lot more power than the 258, which makes a better jeep truck engine than an eagle engine. maybe a earlier 258 would perform better, but Ive only experienced the 1980 and later motors.
The motors were choked with emission junk and the BBD was too small (one from a 318 is a better match) The Jeeps had lower gears which really helped because the O/D made up for it. I mean 2.37 gears? What were they smoking?
I'd put in a 4.0L and carb it with a good carb. Would be a good boost in performance, even though you don't get the nice fuel injection you don't have the headache of all the installation of fuel lines, pump and computer.
If you're really handy I'd stroke it. A bit more work and that beast will be amazing.
Quote from: Nightpath on November 25, 2014, 11:08:40 AM
...even though you don't get the nice fuel injection you don't have the headache of all the installation of fuel lines, pump and computer.
Even if you carb a 4.0 you still have to install a low pressure pump in the fuel line somewhere. Preferrably closer to the tank.
Quote from: Prafeston on November 25, 2014, 02:51:41 PM
Quote from: Nightpath on November 25, 2014, 11:08:40 AM
...even though you don't get the nice fuel injection you don't have the headache of all the installation of fuel lines, pump and computer.
Even if you carb a 4.0 you still have to install a low pressure pump in the fuel line somewhere. Preferrably closer to the tank.
there is a lot of mention about a fuel pump here. That is about the easiest piece of the puzzle.
So i'm thinking I'm going to go with a Crate motor, either a factory 4.0 ($1600ish) or possibly the 4.7 ($2800ish)stroker that Summit offers from ATK . I know I'll need an electric fuel pump, that's not too big of a deal, and from what I understand I'll need to use a 4.0 header, which might require some modification/persuasion to clear some Eagle specific 4WD stuff in the front. Is there anything else I need to worry about as far as fitment?
Tomorrow i'm going to get on the horn with a few shops around here and see what they charge to do the install (I never swapped an engine before and don't have an engine hoist, although i suppose i could buy or rent one) and that will largely determine how much I can spend on the motor without blowing my budget.
Also, is attaching that Stroker motor to the 27 year old stock automatic trans a recipe for disaster? Like, would I be asking for trouble putting that much power through it?
Each tranny is different. That said my wifes stroker has handled it with an a998 also 3.08 geared.
If the trans is a lockup, the stock converter won't take the power. The rear sprague could use upgrading (bolt in is best) as well as the billet/brazed converter neck. That was why I bought a 32RE (aka 999 electric shift/lockup) from a '99 Wrangler with 4.0L but I didn't get the flexplate with it and back then no-one had one for sale.
I robbed the gears, etc and put them in my previous Eagle's trans. Still have the case, valvebody, dipstick tube and part of a rebuild kit with clutchs for $50. Come Christmas it becomes scrap metal as I get paid extra for scrap right before Christmas and I don't want to rent another month's storage without income to cover it.