anyone with a parts car stripped-ish able to grab me a picture of the clutch setup in an eagle? interested in hydraulic ones only, and in particular, the differences in pedal setup between hydraulic and mechanical, like whats found in the 2wd counterparts.
Check BJ Off Road
http://www.bjsoffroad.com/CartGenie/prod-1119.htm (http://www.bjsoffroad.com/CartGenie/prod-1119.htm)
awesome. thanks to quick draw gil! any pics of one in a car tho?
edit: yes there is a not bad shot in eaglepedia, yes, i looked at it, but id like somethin a little more zoomed out :-\
I have a four cylinder Iron Duke Spirit that has the same hydraulic system as all my Eagles. I also have a 6 cylinder Spirit that has the mechanical clutch. The clutch parts are very similar to the CJ7 mechanical clutch, but all the parts are a different dimension than a Jeep. When I replaced my clutch I found out that Spirits are supposed to have 9 inch clutches, versus the 10 inch clutches in Eagles and Jeeps. Sure enough I put a 10 inch in and it didn't work right. No Eagle ever had a mechanical clutch. I've since converted the Spirit over to hydraulic. The smaller clutches are very hard to get and inferior. I suggest that you give up on trying to install a mechanical clutch.
The hydraulic clutch is the way to go. Its pretty simple, just a slave cylinder, a master cylinder, a hydraulic resevoir, and a flexible line between them. The flexible line isn't sold anymore, so I've made one from 3/16 double flare brake line. I used the rear flexible brake hose that bridges the rear axle to the body as the flexible piece. Those flex lines have one input and two outputs, but a cap closes up one side easily.
Some 6 cylinder Eagles came with a short piece of plastic tube instead of a real resevoir. My 1981 6 cylinder and my 82 and 81 Iron Duke all had the nice remote resevoir, but my 83 6 cylinder had that stupid tube. It cracked and left me stranded within a week of me getting the car. The integrated resevoir in Jeep YJs does not fit on our firewall. Regardless of part numbers, I know that the 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder master and slave cylinders are perfectly interchangeable.
-Dave Spillane-
Quote from: captspillane on September 28, 2011, 06:15:26 PM
I suggest that you give up on trying to install a mechanical clutch.
not to be a dink, but i suggest you not guess what im trying to do before posting. ;D actually, i own a spirit, not an eagle, and i want to put a hydraulic clutch in the car. it came with a Z bar, which i do not like whatsoever, and actually had an experience with an automatic shifter z bar falling out of place and me losing shift ability while driving. my flywheel will be a cherokee flywheel, and whatever size clutch will fit on there, and only for the time being, a clutch assembled with splines to fit an sr4, but only (ill repeat) until i get a T5 for the car. the engine will be a 4.0, hence the cherokee flywheel, so i can have the tone ring on the flywheel. what im wanting to know is what the eagles clutch pedals look like so i know how many pieces i need to find to adapt that pedal, and use a more readily available clutch master and slave cylinders.
all that being said, anyone have a good shot of the pedal assembly?
Quote from: amcinstaller on September 28, 2011, 08:13:03 PM
my flywheel will be a cherokee flywheel, and whatever size clutch will fit on there, and only for the time being, a clutch assembled with splines to fit an sr4, but only (ill repeat) until i get a T5 for the car.
It should be common knowledge that by removing the driveshaft and four bolts, your SR4 will slide out and a T5 will slide in. The existing clutch, fork, throwout bearing, and pilot bearing do not need to be disturbed. A SR4 and T5 input shaft is completely identical.
Its hard to tell, but I gather that you have four speed SR4 behind a 258 in a Spirit, and you want to stick a 4.0 in it and then eventually find a T5 later to install. It seems that you currently have the mechanical linkage that came with the Spirit. You've come to the right place. There is alot to learn first.
The "more readily available clutch cylinder" you need is the AMC Eagle clutch cylinder. Period. None other will work. When we install Jeep AX15s, NV3550s, and NSG370s we're forced to use the slave cylinder specific to the transmission we're using, however we must always use the original clutch master cylinder. Its the only one that will fit in the space between the brake booster and the fender wall. A Cherokee, Jeep, Subaru, pretty much every clutch cylinder ever made will not fit (I've tried). I happen to know that its the very same clutch cylinder used in four cylinder Spirits since I own one. Since you're sticking with a T5 you'll also need the AMC Eagle slave cylinder too.
The pedal in your Spirit is different than the Eagle pedal and you will need to modify your existing pedal to mate up to the hydraulic cylinder. Most of the pedal is identical, but the connection on the side looks different. You have a shaft going through a hole in your firewall that hooks to the side of your clutch linkage on a diagonal plate looking thing. The hydraulic pedals have a horizontal post instead of that plate. It shouldn't be too difficult to modify your existing pedal once you see the picture. If no one else posts it in the next week, and you're not a dink, I'll take a picture of my Spirit pedal in comparison to the Eagle pedal. In the Spirit I converted I simply popped in a spare Eagle pedal instead of bothering to modify my old one, so I still have it. Someone here at the nest might have a spare Eagle pedal for you to buy.
The mechanical linkage and Eagle slave cylinder share the same dimensions and bolt holes too, so you do not need to modify anything inside the bellhousing. Its literally as simple as removing the two bolts on your bellhousing, popping the old bar out of the way, and then bolting a slave cylinder into the exact same two bolts.
Your clutch and pressure plate from the Spirit is identical to those from the 4.0. All the Jeep manual transmissions have this in common. Make sure to bring the pilot bearing for the SR4 and T5 over to your 4.0. The pilot bearing for a T5 is different than the pilot bearings used in newer Jeep Cherokee manual transmissions even though the splines are the same. It is possible to put a 4.0 where your 258 used to be without buying anything at all.
You plan on using the 4.0 flywheel. Thats a good idea because the fuel injection wiring harness is designed to be used with a 4.0 starter. The starter must match the flywheel. A 4.0 starter will not work with a 258 flywheel and vice versa. Also the 4.0 flywheel has the correct notches for the Crankshaft Position Sensor. The problem is that a 4.0 flywheel is a quarter inch thinner than the 4.0 flywheel and you want to install a T5 behind it. You're kind of screwed. What you'll probably end up doing is using your old 258 flywheel and starter. The wires going to the starter in your 4.0 harness then will not be needed since you will retain all of your original solenoid and starter wiring to go with the 258 starter. This means that you will need a Hesco CPS relocating kit to run your fuel injection.
Its possible that when you bolt your SR4 stuff to the 4.0 with its 4.0 flywheel that the throwout fork will not notice the difference in thickness. Its also just as possible that it will work fine most of the time and slip some of the time. The first time I worked on my Spirit clutch it drove fine for about a month before beginning to slip. The difference between a 9 inch and a 10 inch clutch is even smaller and yet the mechanical linkage did not have enough adjustment to adapt. After the cost of a new clutch and the time it took to install, I'll never make that gamble again.
We Eagle guys get around buying a 300 dollar Hesco kit by getting the transmission that goes along with the 4.0. You might also have this option since 2WD versions of the AX15 exist. The AX15 is a great shifting 5 speed that is actually much stronger than a T5. If you use an AX15 you will also have to use the internal slave cylinder and pilot bearing specific to it. The pilot bearing input is a normal 3/16 double flare line that works perfectly with your new AMC Eagle clutch master cylinder. Avoid the AX5, that's the weaker version found behind four cylinder engines.
Another option might exist, but its just as expensive. Advance Adaptors sells a T5 bellhousing identical to the SR4 one you already have, except that has a hole for the 4.0 sensor. It seems the sensor might be able to return a useable signal to the computer if the Hall Sensor is aligned to the starting ring. I doubt this is true since the CPS notches on a 4.0 flywheel look alot different than the starting ring. If it is true than drilling your bellhousing and mounting the sensor to interact with the 258 flywheel might be plausible. In the end you'll likely bite the bullet and buy the Hesco kit like the rest of us.
Of course you now have the option of using 4.0 accessories or 258 accessories. The serpantine belt can be taken off and all of your original V belt stuff bolted on the 4.0 without affecting the fuel injection. I personally like the serpentine belt better, but have converted over to V belts before because the AC pumps are different. Yes it is true that you can retain your original exhaust manifold with the 4.0 if you don't bother adapting to the headers and welding in an 02 sensor bung. The 4.0 Oxygen sensor will fit in the exhaust manifold where the 258 oxygen sensor was.
Quote from: PeterM on September 29, 2011, 04:16:05 AM
I expect you may have to remove the shifter.
Yes you will have to remove the shifter and unbolt the transmission support. It also won't easily slide in and out even with a transmission jack and lots of cursing. It takes alot of wiggling and grunting. The point is that everything forward of the bellhousing is identical.
Is this what you are looking for?
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/EAGLE/SX4024.jpg)
Oh and if it wasn't told to you already, the clutch disc and pressure plate from an ax15 equipped jeep will work with an SR4, I have a centerforce one in the SX4, lol, throw out bearing and the pilot are the difference.
(*face-palm*) thank you shaggimo!! thats about it. now i need to compare to what i have in the car to see if i want to modify what i have or attempt to track down a pedal for a decent price. any measurements? (hole to hole, hole to mount) and did you weld on that pedal at all? i see grinding marks.
Yes I did weld on that pedal, the bracket was busted off when I got the car. That fix didn't work btw, I had to beef it up with a bolt on type plate steel bracket, lol. I have an unmolested pedal assembly I can take measurements off of, if you can wait til monday, I'm seldom online on the weekend, lol. I'll take some better pictures too, I believe It has a funky offset if I remember correctly.
ok sounds good. man, do i owe you a beer. 2 times now youve come through with what i needed! three if you count the bit about the clutch. gonna push my luck tho, part numbers on the pilot and throwout bearing? need them to fit a 258 crank tho. if you dont know, thats fine :)
Between the spirit and the eagle, they should be the same, (Basically it seems they just put hydro to the z-bar fork and made a boss on the bell for the slave to bolt on to). Though you mentioned you want to use the 4.0 fly with starter, will the starter bolt to your bell housing? As far as finding the correct pilot for you application, checkout www.novak-adapt.com , it's a great site with worlds of info on interchanges and what not.
Have you thought about using an ax15 from a 2wd dakota, they will bolt up to a jeep's bellhousing then you can use all factory jeep hydraulic clutch set up, CPS, and starter with no fear of compatibility, the only thing adapted would be you pilot, which varies between transmissions (a friend of mine did the opposite, bolted a jeep ax15 to a dakota bell for his 318 powered comanche). Of course that trans is geared more toward 4wd with its deep first gear, lol. Or are you trying to do a W/C t-5 swap from a stang?
well, this car was equipped with an sr4 from the factory. but the plan is to lose the wheezy old 258, drop in a stroker and throw a WCT5 behind it. *BUT* theres always the big debate whether or not a T5 will hold up to 350 ft lbs. so really all im after is a 5 (or 6) speed that will hold up behind the stroker, and be relatively easy to get in there. this will be more geared toward racing, so the 4wd style transmissions (ax5 and 15, etc) were never really appealing to me because i want smooth quick shifts, and the word has always been the ax15 is awesome but is definately a truck transmission. so a deep 1st gear wont do.
also, having compared both bells side by side, 4.0 starter will bolt in fine, just gotta match fly to starter. i also like the 4.0 starter more cause its lighter (not enough to count tho) and neater in appearance with the attached solenoid.
Here's the pics.
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/PEDAL3.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/PEDAL1.jpg)
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/PEDAL2.jpg)
From the center of the pivot bolt, to, the center of push rod pin is 3 inches.
The offset bracket makes the half of the pin stick above the front edge of the pedal (kind of shown in the last pic).
The spot where the rod (the eyelet) will set on the pin, is spaced 1 1/8 away from the side of the pedal, pin is 5/8 long.
Hope that makes sense, lol.
that is awesome! that is totally what i am after. now all i need to do is measure my pedal and finally look at my flywheel! ;D thanks again shag
No preoblem man. 8)
Here is pictures of the Eagle and 4 cylinder Spirit Clutch Master cylinders. It is in a very tight spot. It fits entirely under the brake booster. The only way to use any other clutch master cylinder is to convert your brake system to hydraboost from a Chevy Astro van, since that would get the booster away from the top of the cylinder. The hydraboost hardware is very long and narrow.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/Oct20110543.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/Oct20110544.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/Oct20110545.jpg)
For other people looking at this thread in the future, here is a picture of a Spirit mechanical clutch pedal. It can be modified to work with the hydraulic master cylinder by cutting off the plate on the side and putting in a post.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x427/captspillane/Eagleweb%20Postings/Oct20110594.jpg)
This is a great picture that shows the stiffener on the back of the pedal. That is very important. That was weldied in by a previous owner, since there is just open space on a factory unit. I have several pedals with fatigued and bent pins. If you put enough miles on your pedal it will need that stiffener to keep from bending the U shaped metal under the pin.
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/PEDAL1.jpg)
Ah, so that's a home jobbie, I figured the factory added that later on, I believe these pedals were from an 83 SX/4, the one that was in the 81 didn't have that stiffner on it, and the u broke off. I took a different method to fixing the issue, lol, call it a permanent fix.
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/EAGLE/SX4033.jpg)
Made a whole new post, and bracket.
(http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz55/shaggimo/EAGLE/SX4035.jpg)
Eliminated the U, drilled one hole, and the bracket bolts on the pedal, yes, it adds some heft, but it will not break again, lol.
I like how you did that alot. I've got several broken pedals and that Spirit pedal to do that to. The pedal in my red SX4 has a huge nut as a stiffener and a hideous welding job.
lol, thanks, I tried just welding the u back on, but that proved ineffective, it broke the first time I pushed the pedal down, I wasn't happy to say the least, lol. This was a product of frustration, hence the overkill. :rotfl: