In the next month or so my engine will FINALLY be going back into my Eagle. It's been rebuilt, now with a 4L head, been bored out to .40, new comp cam, new Weber carb, and will have a freshly rebuilt trans and transfer case. Hopefully with a decent new high-energy ignition once I can afford it. Oh, also new lifters pistons and rods....basically its all new but the block and crank.
My question here is what oil to use. A friend of mine is highly recommending "Royal Purple", but I believe it is fully synthetic and I've heard that full synthetic isn't good for the break-in period. Any thoughts on oil choice? or tips on breaking it in? Any thoughts on oil weight, keeping in mind I'm in a place that gets REALLY cold in the winter and hot in the summer? If I go full synthetic I don't want to have to do a full oil-swap every time the temperature changes :P
I just want to pick an oil now in case any goes on sale I can get it then instead of when I need it and it's inevitable going to be full price :-\
Thanks all! :)
There is an additive in some oils, at the moment it escapes me, Zinc, maybe? that you should use during break-in of these older engines. Hopefully some of the good folks here will give you a better answer.
royal purple has a break in oil with zinc additive. i would go the royal purple route myself
I changed just the cam and lifters in a 401 and started it with discount store 10-30. That way when I changed it out after 100 miles it didn't hurt so much. Then I ran non-synthetic for a couple thousand and now run synthetic 0W-40. So far so good. : )
Great tips guys....I did look up why synthetic isn't good for break-in though (actually I found it on the Royal purple web page, where they talk about their break-in oil :) ) Apparently it is TOO smooth and there needs to be some abrasion initially for everything to seat properly, otherwise I definitely think going full synthetic is a great idea. The Break-in oil probably has a highzddp that you mentionned Casper. I put a TON of money into this engine and I want to care for it the best I can. Maybe go 500-1000km on the break-in oil and then switch to the Royal Purple. Do I have to get an engine flush to do that switch?
Altho it'll probably cost another small fortune I'll probably order some Royal Purple break-in oil....hopefully a local store can get it for me so I don't have to pay for all of the shipping! Way up here that would be big bucks!
I sent you a PM with some info.
I bought some zddp maxx to add the zinc neede to any oil you use with that stuff coulde u just get some cheap oil the break it in with since u can add the zinc needed for break in to any oil
I don't know if it's too late yet but you should prime your new engine (the oil system) before starting the first time. If you have an old distributor that you could take apart you'll need the shaft and the housing would be nice too. Take the gear off the shaft and everything else off the housing. With a drill attached to the shaft at the distributor end place the other end into block where it would normally go. Then you can pressurize the whole motor with the drill spinning the oil pump. There are tools for this but this is a nice free way if you have the extra distributor around. If you can't do it it's not the end of the world as the shop should have used break-in lube when assembling your engine. It is nice to do though if you can.
I'm a little concerned about the break-in actually, I got the oil (with a high zinc break-in additive) a little while ago, and I finally picked up the spark plugs and oil filter today. My landlord just did the engine install (he is a semi-retired transmission mechanic, who has worked on cars for....oh forever), and has been asking me to grab the last few things. He seems to be minimally concerned about the fact that this car and rebuild is VERY important to me though.....bugs me a little. Not sure how to deal with him to be honest. I trust his mechanical experience in general, but I'm not sure I trust his level of respect for how much I have put into this car and the fact that this is a brand new engine!
Actually, here is an additional question for you all....can there be a first short startup? priming the engine aside (which I will ask that he do), I'm not sure if the actual break-in procedure has to be done immediately on first startup or not.
Oh, another point, I can't get the exhaust hooked up yet since I switched the manifold, can the initial break-in be done without the full exhaust? Would it be horrible for the first run be a short start-up, 20 min run into town directly to the muffler shop?
Also, (I know the info is here somewhere!!!), what is the best break-in for this engine? RPMs, time to keep it there, how long actually under load/on the road etc? I'm not positive about what to do, but I think what might be more important is what NOT to do!
I know some of these are dumb questions, but I've been out of it for a while :P
When you first run it make it about 20 minutes at around 2000 rpm. The whole time listen to make sure it sounds correct. Don't be concerned about the exhaust; it's not an issue except it might make it a bit harder to hear unusual noises. Check for leaks: oil, water, fuel, PS fluid, etc.
I would let it go through at least one cycle from cold to operating temp and back to cold to be sure all is sealed correctly before driving it; probably two.
As far as the landlord goes just tell him what you said here about how much it means to you and the $$ you have invested. See what you think from there?...
Quote from: casper on March 16, 2011, 10:33:15 PM
the reason for the zinc, our motors are flat tappet cammed motors. the zinc bonds with the metals in the engine. it makes a harder surface sort of, so the lifters and cam do not wear. if you dont use the zddp oil, the lifters/cam wont wear in correctly, and you will have accelerated wear. the reasoning for taking the zddp out of the normal oils, most every "new" engine from the last 20 years has roller lifters/cam. they dont need the zddp as they roll instead of slide. and as the engines get wore, they burn oil. the zddp burns catalytic converters out/plugs them up.
I heard this from several people on the Corvette Forum as well and asked my husband about it. He's a master mechanic and he says zinc in new oils is not a concern. He says, yes many new motors are roller cam, but not all of them are and the new oils work for the non-roller motors as well on break in. The new oils don't have zinc in them, but its been replaced with an additive that performs the same function. We're going to break in my 258 with a modern oil, but he's going to use one designed for a diesel (there's some reason for that but I forget what it is).
Quote from: priya on April 18, 2011, 09:04:49 PM
Quote from: casper on March 16, 2011, 10:33:15 PM
the reason for the zinc, our motors are flat tappet cammed motors. the zinc bonds with the metals in the engine. it makes a harder surface sort of, so the lifters and cam do not wear. if you dont use the zddp oil, the lifters/cam wont wear in correctly, and you will have accelerated wear. the reasoning for taking the zddp out of the normal oils, most every "new" engine from the last 20 years has roller lifters/cam. they dont need the zddp as they roll instead of slide. and as the engines get wore, they burn oil. the zddp burns catalytic converters out/plugs them up.
I heard this from several people on the Corvette Forum as well and asked my husband about it. He's a master mechanic and he says zinc in new oils is not a concern. He says, yes many new motors are roller cam, but not all of them are and the new oils work for the non-roller motors as well on break in. The new oils don't have zinc in them, but its been replaced with an additive that performs the same function. We're going to break in my 258 with a modern oil, but he's going to use one designed for a diesel (there's some reason for that but I forget what it is).
All oil has zinc phosphate. The newer oils just have less zinc to help catalytic converters last longer. Diesel oil typically has more zinc than regular oil. You absolutely need zinc for proper break in of a flat tappet camshaft.
Quote from: casper on April 18, 2011, 09:47:35 PM
the diesel motor oils (up until about 2 years ago) had high levels of zddp in them also. not anymore. the modern off the shelf oils are NOT good for breaking in a flat tappet motor. the lifters dont get that hardend layer on them, and dong get wore into the cam correctly. i had a c-worded 454 i rebuilt for a guy who first cooked main bearings so bad, they had to be welded up so they could be remachined strait. got it rebuilt, and put together. (this was when the zddp first got taken out of the oil and i didnt know about it) the lifters and cam got wiped out in about 10,000 miles. had to rebuild it again. this time, got good zddp in it. then the guy didnt change out the oil like i told him to after 500 miles, and went and spun 2 more main bearings. AGAIN!!! i wasnt interested in building that motor a 3rd tome.
Yes, I've heard many such stories. What convinced me was the fact that flat tappet motors are still being made and they use modern oils. I understand if you want to use such zinc additives, but I'm not concerned about it. My husband says all that is needed is a proper assembly lube for a new camshaft.
High Zinc oil is a MUST HAVE for breaking in a flat tappet cam.
No questions asked.
I've seen people ignore it and wipe a cam in less than 500KM.
Most diesel oils don't have much zinc in them anymore aswell as Casper stated.
I've seen plenty of flat tappet high performance motors eat cams using regular oil.
When you've got a 5,000-10,000$ motor whats a bit of extra money for an additive or decent high zinc oil?
When I ordered my cam from Comp Cams, they specifically said the camshaft WOULD fail without high zinc oil or an additive... Every motor I've built that's flat tappet, Ive used additive or high zinc oil.
Quote from: priya on April 18, 2011, 10:04:51 PM
Yes, I've heard many such stories. What convinced me was the fact that flat tappet motors are still being made and they use modern oils.
I can't think of any new flat tappet engines off the top of my head. Most new engines are OHC and the couple that aren't, Hemi and Chevy LS series use roller lifters. Not to mention an aftermarket, higher lift cam has been installed which results in higher pressures on the lifters. The break in is the critical point. After break in, regular oil will be fine.
I use diesel oil in everything (especially the diesel). Usually Rotella. The 5-40 synthetic is good year round, and you can get it at nearly any truck stop if you need a quart. That's great for a part-time car where you may not get 7,000 on it every six months.
The diesel oil still has more ZDDP (zinc) and other wear additives then regular oils, plus high detergents required to keep diesel soot in suspension. It really cleans out your sludge well.
Quote from: Sunny on April 18, 2011, 10:12:42 PM
High Zinc oil is a MUST HAVE for breaking in a flat tappet cam.
No questions asked.
I've seen people ignore it and wipe a cam in less than 500KM.
Most diesel oils don't have much zinc in them anymore aswell as Casper stated.
I've seen plenty of flat tappet high performance motors eat cams using regular oil.
When you've got a 5,000-10,000$ motor whats a bit of extra money for an additive or decent high zinc oil?
When I ordered my cam from Comp Cams, they specifically said the camshaft WOULD fail without high zinc oil or an additive... Every motor I've built that's flat tappet, Ive used additive or high zinc oil.
Such stories remind me of other stories of conventional wisdom are often wrong, like how gas pumps often have a picture of a cell phone with a red line through it when there is no possibility of a cell phone giving off a spark and causing a fire. Or, the old standby that sugar in the gas tank will melt in the cylinders and seize up an engine. After many years of believing that one and hearing many stories of someone who had a motor ruined by sugar in the tank or someone who knew someone who experienced that one day it occurred I thought "I bet sugar won't even dissolve in gasoline" - it won't. A short time later I saw a test on TV (mythbusters?) where they put it to the test and sugar in the tank had no effect on the motor. A few months ago someone brought a car into my husbands shop because someone had put sugar in the gas tank. He dutifully drained it as the customer requested and then when the other mechanics didn't believe him that it was unncessary he poured the sugared gas into the tank in his truck making sure to included the undissolved sugar grains that were at the bottom. We still laugh about that one. Still people will absolutely insist that sugar in the gas tank will ruin a motor because it happened to them, or someone they know.
We won't be using Zinc additives to break in my motor. As far as new diesel oils containing more zinc, new diesels have catalytic converters so if the zinc was removed for the sake of catalytic converters this does not seem likely.
So the conclusive answer is Obscurity , if your not confused by all this yet, you will be after a few more posts !!
ok, here's my 2cents. I rebuilt a 1952 4cyl . 403cu.in last year.I used assembly prelube on everything when assembling( this is a must) ,and plastigauged all the tolerences, then ran straight 30w for a break in oil to seat the rings.It has flat top Ross raceing pistons and Total Seal - gapless rings.I ran it through break-in, then switched to a 5w-30.With the piston wieght reduction and balance , I can run about another 15-20% above normal max rpm, no issues.
So now that your still wondering what to do , at least I got to tell you my story : )
All kidding aside, compile all the info you have just got from everyone and make a decision.Better to be safe than sorry.
Quote from: priya on April 18, 2011, 10:39:22 PM
We won't be using Zinc additives to break in my motor. As far as new diesel oils containing more zinc, new diesels have catalytic converters so if the zinc was removed for the sake of catalytic converters this does not seem likely.
You can do whatever you want, it's your car. You may be fine, but is the gamble worth it to save $10 for a bottle of additive? Zinc was not removed just reduced. Do an internet search for flat tappet cam failures and you will have plenty of reading to do.
Quote from: priya on April 18, 2011, 10:39:22 PMSuch stories remind me of other stories of conventional wisdom are often wrong, like how gas pumps often have a picture of a cell phone with a red line through it when there is no possibility of a cell phone giving off a spark and causing a fire. Or, the old standby that sugar in the gas tank will melt in the cylinders and seize up an engine. After many years of believing that one and hearing many stories of someone who had a motor ruined by sugar in the tank or someone who knew someone who experienced that one day it occurred I thought "I bet sugar won't even dissolve in gasoline" - it won't. A short time later I saw a test on TV (mythbusters?) where they put it to the test and sugar in the tank had no effect on the motor. A few months ago someone brought a car into my husbands shop because someone had put sugar in the gas tank. He dutifully drained it as the customer requested and then when the other mechanics didn't believe him that it was unncessary he poured the sugared gas into the tank in his truck making sure to included the undissolved sugar grains that were at the bottom. We still laugh about that one. Still people will absolutely insist that sugar in the gas tank will ruin a motor because it happened to them, or someone they know.
We won't be using Zinc additives to break in my motor. As far as new diesel oils containing more zinc, new diesels have catalytic converters so if the zinc was removed for the sake of catalytic converters this does not seem likely.
Mythbusters is a great show. They actually also tested the cellphone at a gas station myth.
I don't see what the harm is, for an extra few bucks to gaurentee it.
I spent my childhood at a track, as my father built racecars up until about 10 years ago.. [15 years ago he stopped fulltime, then did it only part time.]
I have first hand watched cams be wiped on non stock motors because conventional oil does not provide a proper break in.
Call any major cam company, and ask them and most state the cam WILL be damaged if it is not properly broken in with high zinc. [Infact a lot of camshafts I've ordered lately have come with a free zinc additive for the break in.]
Shell Rotella was the last oil I knew that had zinc, but I'd assume it's gone now.
Also, I have to agree with Eaglefreek.. what uses a flat tappet these days?
My vote is for the extra few bucks, what can it hurt.
Proper break in is important andI've NEVER seen a performance shop break in a new flat tappet motor with just regular 5w30 off the shelf.
I get all my oil info from the bobistheoilguy forums. If you have any questions on additives, who has them, doesn't and how much there is in something, go over there and lurk around. Those guys are serious about oil, they have the lab tests to prove it.
Quote from: BenM on April 19, 2011, 12:00:13 AM
I get all my oil info from the bobistheoilguy forums. If you have any questions on additives, who has them, doesn't and how much there is in something, go over there and lurk around. Those guys are serious about oil, they have the lab tests to prove it.
GREAT website. Pretty good unbiased information.
The articles from the site hosts themselves are great, the forums are full of arguing though hah.
Here's what I'm going by:
-Every Flat Tappet Cam I've installed says in nice big bright letters DO NOT BREAK IN WITH CONVENTIONAL OIL.
-I've seen cams wiped out in less than 500KM due to improper break in
-It's 7$ to protect a motor
I don't listen to someone just because they're a mechanic. Having worked in a few [and still currently working in] a shop, it's very clear mechanics don't know everything. Plenty of mechanic's cant peice together a properly matched high performance motor. They can just replace XX part on XXX car. I quit my apprenticeship because these days it's just "hook scan tool up.. read codes.. replace part." So I went to persue a different career track, and keep it as a hobby. I learned a lot though, growing up with a father, and both grandfathers being mechanics.. hah.
That's not a shot at Priya's husband, to clarify.
Z-max is mineral oil.. DO NOT USE IT.
Lab test's have proven it, and the FTC had a lawsuit pending because it was causing more harm then good.
Carrol Shelby got a pretty decent sum of money to promote it.
I'll send you a PM with a few different good zinc additives you can use for break in or constant use.
Shell Rotella is still around. I just picked some up at Tractor Supply,I needed it for a 58 Porsche I am working on.
Quote from: 68AMXGOPAC on April 19, 2011, 07:17:31 AM
Shell Rotella is still around. I just picked some up at Tractor Supply,I needed it for a 58 Porsche I am working on.
Not sure of the Zinc and Phosphorous content anymore, but I know it was one of the last off the shelf oils to have high ammounts. Guy's here were buying it in truckloads hah. A few engine builders around here still stock it in bulk.
Quote from: Sunny on April 19, 2011, 12:17:29 AM
Here's what I'm going by:
-Every Flat Tappet Cam I've installed says in nice big bright letters DO NOT BREAK IN WITH CONVENTIONAL OIL.
-I've seen cams wiped out in less than 500KM due to improper break in
-It's 7$ to protect a motor
Yes, always follow directions. ;) If you're not sure of what to do, all the cam manufacturers have service lines, and they definitely want you to be happy and be a repeat customer. If they're recommending a grade, style, or even brand for breakin, it's worth the cost for long term life of your engine. Talk to those guys and get a recommendation.
The last time I looked at the numbers, even the modern low-emissions diesel oils have higher zinc and phosphorus levels then normal oils. If you can find CH-4 or CI-4, those should be the older high-zinc formulas. CJ-4 is the lower catalyst friendly blend, but CJ-4 still specs more zinc then the newer gasoline oils. However, I haven't looked at oil in at least a year, so I may be out of date.
Well, I've come to the conclusion that I'm definitely using the Zinc additive, and a relatively generic oil (one the guy at NAPA said he knows other people have broken engines in with).
I'm sure that the guys at the shop used the proper lube when assembling the engine, they were VERY good respecting the fact that I cared about this engine, and the amount of money I put into it. They mentioned that they had thrown in a couple hours for free because they realized how costly it had been. True or no, it wouldn't surprise me, they did a LOT of research at very least, most likely for free, they were.
The landlord/tranny mechanic....I got my oil, additives, spark plugs and oil filter. A couple more parts yet to come in and it'll be good to go....I'm going to talk to him, perhaps print out this thread and take it to him. I want to insist that he primes the motor, and that I am THERE when it starts for the first time, and I will thoroughly explain the break-in to him. Here's hoping though that it starts the first try!!! It could turn out to be quite the ordeal.
He pulled the car out, since we were waiting for parts and he had other work to do (fix his plow so we could use the driveway!). I honestly think he expects to just throw the absolute minimum parts on to get it running and then pull it into his shop to finish the work. He isn't going to be pleased when I correct this idea of his, but hey, he is getting "paid" for this. (he is actually getting my Grand Am in return for it....I could sell it for about $2500 if I wanted to take the time)
Thanks for the info everybody, I'll probably read this thread a dozen more times before break-in day! :)
Another thought. Fresh gas for the tank since this has been sitting awhile. Get a few 5 gal cans and add it, depending on how full it is now of course. (or maybe I should have used liters ;) )
No, you don't want to put a few gallons of liters in the tank. I've heard that stuff is thicker then diesel. Better stick to gas. ;)
;D
Heh, yeah I keep reminding myself I have to take the jerrycan and fill it up one of these days. I'll get a few litres of gallons and see if that works ;)
Also, casper I get what you mean :) and thankfully my landlord is old-school and knows carbs as well as a tranny mechanic can, he has done engine re-installs before, but I don't think ever with a brand new rebuild. I'm taking notes on all of this stuff to take over for the initial startup....which I am INSISTING I'm there for. Another week or two for a couple of parts (yay long weekend holding things up!) and it should be start-up time!
Gravity feeding the carb is cheaper and just as effective on acarb. Just place a gas can on roof and siphon start.
I think the landlord might like the siphon idea a little too much, I can see havoc lol (he is a little nuts!) It might be the way to go though....have to wait and see!
I just wish my parts would get here so I could get things going. I ordered from Rock Auto, which usually isn't a problem, but we live outside of town (hard to find, no street address) and FedEx/UPS doesn't have a depot in town and they haven't called me to arrange delivery. It should have all been here last week. For all I know they've sent it all back!! Uuugh, I love living out of town, but its impossible to get anything sent here easily!
I bought a rebuilt engine a few years ago for an Aerostar. I asked my brother, (who rebuilt engines for a living for 20 years), if there was anything special I should do to break it in. He said be sure to change the oil after the first ten or fifteen minutes of running in case there were any filing left in it anywhere.