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  • June 21, 2024, 03:40:59 AM

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Author Topic: Engine locked up.  (Read 3918 times)

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Offline tgotr

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Engine locked up.
« on: June 11, 2022, 08:42:59 PM »
I don't think the engine is seized. I was tuning my carb, dropped the idle too low and it stalled. Now it doesn't turn over. There is oil in the engine. I think it's one of two things, the starter took a :censored: and doesn't have the strength to spin the engine over in the compression stroke (I can't either)...or one of the accessories locked up and it's dragging the engine. I can't get the V belts off. Don't see a tensioner except on the alternator belt. I am not against cutting because I have replacements ready to go.


Offline eaglebeek

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2022, 10:30:27 AM »
Does your car have a single serpentine belt?  :eagle:
1984 Eagle Wagon, 258, auto, 2.73 gears, daily driver
1983 Eagle Limited Wagon, parts; sold
2000 Jeep Cherokee, 4.0, auto
2007 Hyundai Accent, radical downsize from minivan, wife's car and she loves it!

"The society which scorns excellence in plumbing as a humble activity and tolerates shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted activity will have neither good plumbing nor good philosophy: neither its pipes nor its theories will hold water."--John W. Gardner, in "Excellence: Can We Be Equal and Excellent Too?" (1961)
 
Air-conditioning is so cool!

Offline Still Pat

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2022, 11:12:20 AM »
Before you decide it's locked up, pull the spark plugs & try turning it over. Compression makes it hard to turn one over.
'83 AMC Eagle wagon 258/auto.
'84 AMC Eagle sedan (4 door) 258/auto.
PREVIOUS AMCs:
'72 Gremlin X 304/3 speed
'81 Eagle Kammback 258/4 speed (Purchased new)
'82 Eagle wagon 258/5 speed (Ordered new, traded Kammback)
'86 (I THINK) Eagle wagon - BlackBird 258/auto. (Got hit/totaled)
'83 Eagle wagon - White Eagle 258-auto. (Front subframe was rotted out - sold for parts)

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2022, 05:56:43 PM »
Does your car have a single serpentine belt?  :eagle:

V-Belts. It's an 84

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2022, 08:59:01 PM »
as said pull the plugs and turn it by hand



Manitowoc WI

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2022, 08:29:02 AM »
as said pull the plugs and turn it by hand

I can't get at the #1 plug because the ac compressor is in the way, and I can't get the lower two bolts out because they are stuck.

There are two bolts that attach the compressor's bracket to the cylinder head or block, if I am deleting the AC, do I need the bracket the ac is sitting on to attach the alternator up higher? I already know I need a different bracket for the alternator.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 12:54:22 PM by tgotr »

Offline MIPS

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 05:19:41 PM »
Even with one plug still in you should now be able to put a wrench on the balancer bolt and turn the engine. With all the plugs out and the accessories unbelted you can totally turn the engine over by hand but otherwise a wrench is enough to nudge it.
I'm a little confused how the engine could of just seized like that to the point you can't budge it. Normally it has to be right on the point of failure anyways to stall out and never run again but you would of been hearing some pretty nasty noises.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 05:21:06 PM by MIPS »

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 06:31:11 PM »
Even with one plug still in you should now be able to put a wrench on the balancer bolt and turn the engine. With all the plugs out and the accessories unbelted you can totally turn the engine over by hand but otherwise a wrench is enough to nudge it.
I'm a little confused how the engine could of just seized like that to the point you can't budge it. Normally it has to be right on the point of failure anyways to stall out and never run again but you would of been hearing some pretty nasty noises.

My hypothesis is that something is lodged in the engine head. I had the carb off for a week while I rebuilt it...twice, I did fill the intake holes with shop towels, but I dunno. I don't want to pull the engine...I don't have the stuff to do it. I can't even pull the head because I don't have the stuff to pull it.

Offline djm3452004

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2022, 08:47:01 PM »
If you can get several of the plugs out, or even if you can't, try a 3/4" socket on the crankshaft bolt at the very front of the engine with a heavy 1/2" drive ratchet or breaker bar.  Pull the ratchet or bar clockwise, as if you were trying to tighten the crank bolt.  You will have to do this from underneath the front of the car, but thankfully with Eagles, they are high enough that it's not a big deal.

If the engine turns, you're likely fine, and maybe your starter has given up the ghost as you've suggested.  If it doesn't, I'd recommend pulling any remaining spark plugs and buying or borrowing a bore-scope to take a peek inside the cylinders, looking for damage. 

But you may be jumping to conclusions.  As stated by others, it seems highly unlikely that a perfectly running engine that just stalled from being idled too low during adjustments should have suddenly suffered any catastrophic damage without A LOT of warning signs.  Similarly, it seems unlikely that your accessories (idler pulley, A/C comp, alternator, etc.) would have suddenly seized up without making a ton of obvious racket first.

Have you checked your positive starter cable connections, starter-to-solenoid, and solenoid-to-battery?  If they are loose and not making good connection, you can turn the key all you want and the engine will not turn over.

Similarly, if your starter solenoid on the pass. inner fender has died, you're not going anywhere either.  You can test this by BRIEFLY jumping across the big terminals on the solenoid and seeing if the starter motor turns the engine over.  (Use a heavy jumper cable for this.)

Lastly, if your car has an automatic trans., one other thing to quickly check is at the very bottom of the starter solenoid -- the neutral safety switch connection.  I think it's a light-blue wire.  If the little push-on connector has come off the round terminal, the car will think it's in gear and the starter solenoid won't operate = engine won't turn over either.

There's all sorts of little minor odds and ends that can keep a car from starting or even turning over.  I think you may have made the leap from "my horse has a scratch" to "my horse has a broken leg and needs to be put down" a little too quickly.

Please be methodical, and play with one variable at a time.  For us to be of the most help, we need to know exactly what you've checked, how you've checked it, and results of each check.


Please keep us posted; we're here to help! 

David
Current Project: 1983 Eagle Wagon 258
Past AMC Project(s):  1979 Spirit Liftback 232
                                1968 Ambassador 287

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2022, 09:09:59 AM »
If you can get several of the plugs out, or even if you can't, try a 3/4" socket on the crankshaft bolt at the very front of the engine with a heavy 1/2" drive ratchet or breaker bar.  Pull the ratchet or bar clockwise, as if you were trying to tighten the crank bolt.  You will have to do this from underneath the front of the car, but thankfully with Eagles, they are high enough that it's not a big deal.

If the engine turns, you're likely fine, and maybe your starter has given up the ghost as you've suggested.  If it doesn't, I'd recommend pulling any remaining spark plugs and buying or borrowing a bore-scope to take a peek inside the cylinders, looking for damage. 

But you may be jumping to conclusions.  As stated by others, it seems highly unlikely that a perfectly running engine that just stalled from being idled too low during adjustments should have suddenly suffered any catastrophic damage without A LOT of warning signs.  Similarly, it seems unlikely that your accessories (idler pulley, A/C comp, alternator, etc.) would have suddenly seized up without making a ton of obvious racket first.

Have you checked your positive starter cable connections, starter-to-solenoid, and solenoid-to-battery?  If they are loose and not making good connection, you can turn the key all you want and the engine will not turn over.

Similarly, if your starter solenoid on the pass. inner fender has died, you're not going anywhere either.  You can test this by BRIEFLY jumping across the big terminals on the solenoid and seeing if the starter motor turns the engine over.  (Use a heavy jumper cable for this.)

Lastly, if your car has an automatic trans., one other thing to quickly check is at the very bottom of the starter solenoid -- the neutral safety switch connection.  I think it's a light-blue wire.  If the little push-on connector has come off the round terminal, the car will think it's in gear and the starter solenoid won't operate = engine won't turn over either.

There's all sorts of little minor odds and ends that can keep a car from starting or even turning over.  I think you may have made the leap from "my horse has a scratch" to "my horse has a broken leg and needs to be put down" a little too quickly.

Please be methodical, and play with one variable at a time.  For us to be of the most help, we need to know exactly what you've checked, how you've checked it, and results of each check.


Please keep us posted; we're here to help! 

David

I can roll the engine back a quarter turn and jump the starter, and it spins back to that point and stops. The ground/neg wire also gets very hot so it's pumping a ton of current. I replaced the starter and solenoid. Something I was going to do anyway, no time like the present. Good thinking too, because the starter had a serial number dating to 1986. Easiest starter pull I've ever done, I must say.

I doubt the engine is seized, but something is likely lodged in there preventing things from moving. If it was seized up, there would have been grinding and a ton of racket. The AC compressor is locked up, one of the reasons why I am doing the alternator relocation and saving up with an aftermarket AC setup because I am a sissy millennial. I am going to pull the plugs after work (weather permitting, It's supposed to be a minor heat wave the next few days, with high humidity) now that I have the AC compressor and bracket off and have a look in the cylinders for anything that is amiss. If not, I'm going to have to pull the head.

I have the neutral safety switch pin grounded already.

Offline MIPS

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2022, 03:38:18 PM »
If you are positive it's not a seized accessory the last thing I can think of before you have no choice but pull the head is pull the valve cover and check if somehow you've got a valve jammed in a position where either it's kissing a piston or you're about to bend a pushrod. I'd say take the rockers off completely but the caps need a torque wrench to reinstall.

Edited:
I just want to add to that even after saying the above,  it's highly unlikely that as the engine stalled a valve suddenly stuck'd and the engine stopped exactly on the last possible stroke. You would of heard something and I can't think of anything in the bottom-end that would of failed in this manner.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2022, 03:48:45 PM by MIPS »

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2022, 07:45:07 PM »
Lookie lookie what I found in cylinder 3. Roll the engine back and see if I can get my magnet in to get it. Otherwise, I may need to take the head off. It's a 1/2 inch hex.



It is firmly jammed in there. I can't spin the engine forward and trying to spin it back just loosens the crank bolt.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2022, 06:18:58 AM by tgotr »

Offline MIPS

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2022, 01:42:30 AM »
WOW that was a lucky find!  :o

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2022, 07:45:32 AM »
WOW that was a lucky find!  :o

Looks like it gouged the head. If it's not too deep, I am not going to worry about it. Slight loss of compression.

Offline vangremlin

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2022, 11:19:24 AM »
 :censored:
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1980 Coupe 258 - "Ginger
1972 Gremlin X 304
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Offline Taylor

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2022, 05:02:02 PM »
Wow, where did that come from? Just odd. Does not look like a piece from inside the carburetor.
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Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2022, 07:59:50 AM »
Wow, where did that come from? Just odd. Does not look like a piece from inside the carburetor.

Nut fell in, I used a borescope to find it, couldn't, figured I imagined it. 100% my fault. Might do an engine swap.

Offline Mr_Roboto

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2022, 05:09:35 PM »
Wow! Time for a 4.0 probably. I'd think I'd want to pop the head and see what's in there tbh.

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2022, 10:04:20 PM »
Wow! Time for a 4.0 probably. I'd think I'd want to pop the head and see what's in there tbh.

That's my plan for tomorrow. I have a bad back, so I got an engine hoist to pull the head. If the block is borked, I may go for a 4.0L swap. I need to do more research. One of the reasons I would do it would be to get the transmission with overdrive as well as a modern transfer case. I would run a carb on it, because I dunno how well the ECU would work, the early 90s was smack dab in the capacitor plague. Even high quality ones were garbage. They leak all over the board and nuke it.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 10:06:10 PM by tgotr »

Offline tgotr

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« Last Edit: June 18, 2022, 09:34:03 PM by tgotr »

Offline Mr_Roboto

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2022, 05:36:52 AM »
is that a score in the bore?

Offline MIPS

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2022, 11:49:42 AM »
Likewise, is that a crack across the piston?  :o :o :o

That is some seriously MISERABLE luck.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 11:51:24 AM by MIPS »

Offline tgotr

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Re: Engine locked up.
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2022, 12:44:33 PM »
is that a score in the bore?

Yep, that's what it looks like to me.

Likewise, is that a crack across the piston?  :o :o :o

That is some seriously MISERABLE luck.

I don't think the piston is cracked, just scored and likely ready to crack.

 

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