AMC Eagle Den Forum
The Mighty 258 => Cooling System => Topic started by: LaGuardia on April 23, 2011, 02:11:25 PM
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It seems the "fix one thing - another one to fix shows up" thing is happening here.
Today, while I was checking oil level, belts, and ordinary stuff I found out the fan pulley is somehow "loose".
Yes, that's it. It moves if I move the fan. It was OK some months ago, when I replaced all the belts. I'm sure about it.
Now it moves together with the fan, it reminds me of a tooth that's going to fall. (It's gross, I know, but it's the closest example).
Everything is working good on the cooling side, I noticed just because I turned the fan by hand while checking stuff.
How deep am I into trouble ? Anybody been already there ?
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Not sure what you mean.
You can rotate it when it is cool: it has a thermal coupling.
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It could be the thermal fan itself. If it moves a little, it's time to replace. They should be tight. If it moves you are OK. Do you notice a high rev noise (fan kicking in) at cold temps? I got mine off evilbae for $25.00.
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Sounds like your water pump bearings are going. If the fan moved without the pulley, I'd suspect the clutch. Anyway, this is something I've done in a driveway many times.
You just need a handful of sockets and wrenches. The hardest part is making sure you get a good pump, I've gotten a couple lately that had core shift so bad I couldn't trust them. Ours should be Aluminum, so avoid any cast steel pumps and you probably won't run into the problem.
The better AMC pumps have 7 or 9 fins, the basic ones are five fins on the back. More fins is more coolant volume. There are high-end aftermarket pumps with a disc tacked on the back of the fins. These flow even more water and can help if you have had any cooling problems, but generally cost twice as much.
When you pull everything out, take the shroud loose first and then a towel over the back of the radiator helps protect it and your knuckles. Then check you fan clutch. If it is smooth and tight, clean it of well and reuse it. If there is any wobble or unevenness when you spin it, it could contribute to wearing out of your pump bearings, so replace it too.
It'll take you a couple of hours if it's your first time as a lot of brackets attach accessories to the pump, just go slowly and keep the bolts straight. Also, make sure you don't over torque the aluminum parts. I have a small 3/8 Craftsman socket wrench that is the biggest thing I'll use working on aluminum parts after cracking a couple.
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OK. Sorry I didn't explain better. By "moving" I don't mean "rotating" around its axle (that would be alright).
I think BenM got the point. It seems a bearing issue. Lately bearings don't love me, that's for sure >:(
Well, new water pump needed, it seems. Suggestions ? Advices ? My only source for "new" parts is RockAuto, shall I go with them ?
But (this is the part that really worries me) do you think I can drive the car anyway ? How long before doing major damage ?
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I would agree with Ben. The water pump would be my first suspect. And, don't get a rebuilt one, new ones are not that much more money.
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It'll go until you start seeing coolant weeping out, but keep an eye on it. I wouldn't be planning any long trips.
It might inconvenience part stores, but find one that will let you look at stock. They interchange with nearly every late 258, and I believe V-belt 4.0 engines too. They usually have 4+ in their computer, so if you don't think one is a good one, have them pull another.
I don't know what good ones RockAuto has, but places like 4WD and Quadratec have them too. Call some place up and talk to them, see if they can recommend one or what their return policy is.
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LaGuardia is in Italy, so availability may be limited.
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Sorry, I forgot! I can't help with online ordering, though. I hope someone else has experience with that.
It's also possible to rebuild them, but I've never done that myself.
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Just make sureto show us correcrt rotation. In other words pic us the set up.
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Here we are. Coolant is weeping out. I guess the car is bound to another period of forced rest. I hate that.
Rotation, well, I have no pics at hand now, but the set up is as follows:
three separate belts (no serpentine), standing in front of the car, the fan (and the pulley, and the pump) turns clockwise, and it sucks air through the rad.
I think the fan clutch is stuck, too (if I try to spin the fan by hand, even if everything's cool, it doesn't move until the belt starts to slip), and maybe that's the culprit for the pump failure. I'll replace it too.
RockAuto lists several pumps for an'81 LTD wagon. As far as I can see the main difference is about rotation: serpentine belt equipped cars need counterclockwise, no serpentine (like mine and most of the others) need clockwise, always standing in front of the car.
Also fan clutches seem to follow the same classification: I think I'll need all "clockwise" stuff.
Am I right ?
(I'm sorry if I seem confused and confusing, but I'm just a little bit frustrated ;) )
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I did a search on rock auto and they have 2 pumps that show the impeller. in the pictures they are the correct pumps. hope that helps ya out
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Yeah, that's the right direction. That's the most important thing.
Earlier 258s used a different length shaft, but there should be no confusion with anything between 1980-1988. They all should be the exact same water pump as far as fitment is concerned.
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Thank you all for the input... parts should be on the way. I ordered a Cardone (new, not reman) pump w/gasket, a new thermal fan clutch (mine was obviously shot, I guess that's why the pump failed), a new rad cap and a new rad peacock (something tells me I'll break the old one, I'd better be prepared).
I'll be draining the circuit and removing lots of parts, so I think it will be great time to install that new thermostat, thermostat housing and rad hoses I had sitting around in a box since last order.
I just hope the parts will be here for friday, so that next weekend I can start (and hopefully finish) this new job. Until then, I'll have to share (again !) my wife's ride and use (again !) the train to get back home from work at night. It's the second time it happens this year...
As usual, I'll have lots of questions, I think I'll have to browse the Forum again to gather the needed info...
Basically, I'll need directions to:
1) safely drain the cooling system with minimal mess (I hate the idea of coolant all over the place, call me a stoopid but I don't want my dog to mess with that stuff);
2) replacing pump and t-stat without breaking stuff (I guess I'll have to deal with frozen bolts AGAIN);
3) properly refilling and purging the system (don't want air bubbles to hang in there).
Any suggestions, tips and advice are welcome, as usual.
I'm writing this without looking at the car, but there's one thing that worries me: I saw that replacing the pump implies removing some brackets, and one of them (it seems) has to do with one of the bolts holding the valve cover. I'd rather not mess with it, as it's still tight and doesn't leak a drop of oil. Do you think I can leave it alone ?
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IIRC no valve cover bolts have to be removed. Make sure the small hole on the t-stat is pointed towards 12:00. One thing I do, is if you have a flushing tee is to raise the hose it is in higher than the the rest of the cooling system and then open the cap far enough to let any air escape as you finish filling the system. Did you get a new t-stat housing too? Not to jinx you, but the like to crack on me if I don't have a spare one lying around. There are two kinds available, the pot metal type which like to crack and the better cast iron ones which are bit stronger. I tighten those two fasteners alternately.
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Of course I have one... when I ordered the thermostat, some time ago, I added a spare housing because I read here about their cracking habit ;) I just hope not to crack both of them...
The bad news is the new t-stat has no small hole. I guess I'll have to drill it myself, but I have no idea where and how large. A pic would be useful, and the diameter (in millimeters) would help.
I wouldn't replace it (in the end it's just stuck open) but it seems a pity to me opening all that stuff on the engine and leaving it untouched ;)
Why finish a job in 4 hours when you can make it last the whole day ? ;D
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...or (knowing myself) the whole weekend ?
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A tiny drill, 1-2 mm (I use 1/16 inch), on the non-moving part of the thermostat where the gasket won't block it. Orient that side up.
There's usually a drain on the radiator. Open it, then when it slows open the radiator cap without taking it off. There will likely be a little extra coolant in the lower hose and a dribble out of the block when you take the pump off.
Once you have the radiator full, start the car then add 50/50 mix as needed until it starts to push back out. Any remaining air should work out on your next couple of drives. Just keep an eye on the overflow as it pulls coolant in to replace air.
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That was really clear, Ben, thanks a lot !
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Waiting for parts... the car can't be moved anyway so yesterday (having some spare time) I decided to take some advantage and start removing stuff. It's not hard, but hey it does take time !
If you think it would be useful I'll write an howto when I'm done, sorry I didn't take pictures.
So I emptied the rad (the peacock was not frozen as I expected, so it worked perfectly and I won't have to replace it as planned ;) ), removed a couple of belts, unbolted two brackets, removed the fan.
Boy, the fan clutch is dead ! Glad I bought a new one.
Then I removed the hoses and proceeded with the t-stat housing. I thought the thermostat was stuck open (the engine took years to warm up in winter) but surprise, surprise... there was no t-stat AT ALL ! The housing was as empty as an empty housing... Probably it failed and they simply removed it somewhere in time. Ok, glad I have a new one, too.
As for the pump, I have loosened all the bolts, but I'll wait for the new one to arrive before removing it. Don't want to leave too many "mice entries" open while the car is sitting.
In the meanwhile, I took my time to do some good cleaning around, with all that stuff off I was able to reach unknown places, full of crud and greasy stuff.
One more question:
now that I have everything open, is it possible to "wash" the water jackets in the block by injecting water inside ? And if so, where do I pour it in and where do I expect it to flush out ? And would it be a good idea to do the same with the radiator ? Are there any pressure related warnings ? And is there something I would want to add to water to get better results ?
Thank you for your advice... I must find myself something to do while waiting for parts... ;)
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There's always some sand and casting flash left in the coolant passages, as well as any rust or sludge that has built up. You're not going to get everything out without hot tanking the whole engine, but you can reverse-flush.
Basically, hook a water hose up to the thermostat cover and let it come out the water pump opening. I'd try to flush the radiator top-down before I reversed it since the sediment would settle in the bottom tank, but you would have to find an adapter for that.
It's not unheard of to find a tool of some kind lodged in the water jackets of an engine!
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Will do, thank you! It's gonna be more like a "rinse" than a "flush" but better than nothing, I guess... ;)
I saw rust colored stuff while draining the fluid and I want to get rid of as much of it as possible before installing the new parts (which I hope will get here soon - I ordered the pump and fan clutch last monday... I've been able to track them on the USPS site until they landed in Italy, last thursday, and still waiting. It means 3 days to cross the ocean and 6 or whatever it will take to cover the 400 miles from Milan to Rome >:( ).
I'm curious about how it will feel to have a fully functional cooling system: until today, in fact, I discovered I had no thermostat and no fan clutch at all.
Then probably I'll have some extra trouble, because the engine sometimes (in hot summer days and slow traffic situations) showed overheating signs: overheating shouldn't be possible with such a set up (fan always on and no thermostat). But we'll talk about it later, if and when it will happen...
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Not to jinx you, but maybe you want to keep on going and replace the timing chain and gears since you are already have some of the components out of the way. Unless, its been replaced at some time.
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I should have thought about that before...
Without parts I'm going nowhere, and ordering them now (leave alone the fact that I'm a bit short on money) would mean keeping the car sitting for another week. I'm still sharing my wife's car when the Eagle sits and I just can't stand this thing anymore.
I'll keep my fingers crossed and hope the recent jobs will keep her on the road for a long time... or maybe I just need to start considering buying another car as a daily driver and keeping the Eagle as a pampered classic.
But, I'm not sure I'd want to do it. I love driving in the Eagle ! ;)
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That's the problem, I know. Parts are just not easily available for you.
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Parts arrived !! :hello2:
Probably I'll take one afternoon off tomorrow and I'll install them (I don't know if I can wait until saturday)...
Unfortunately, it seems I have a minor problem with the pump: it's the correct type, all right, the impeller has seven "spokes" (not five like in the picture) and it seems right. It came with a new gasket, nothing's missing.
The trouble is with the two bigger and threaded holes on the pump body, right side looking from the front of the car:
the upper one is for the belt tensioner bracket, the lower for the PS pump mounting bracket.
Since I've removed the bracket and loosened the PS, I tried the bolts which held them on the new pump's threaded holes, and THEY DON'T FIT. No way. They're like a millimeter larger than the holes.
Now, as I bent the longer one in the removal process, I thought I'd change them anyway. I'm searching my hardware buckets for something suitable but I can only find slightly larger or slightly thinner bolts.
Do you think I could solve the problem using two slightly smaller bolts in a "pass through" way, with kind of grover washers and nuts on the other side ? I'd solve the "strange thread" problem, by just bypassing it. The tensioner bracket is held in place also by two of the head studs (and additional nuts on them) and the PS pump has a lot of other bolts to keep it still. Will it work ?
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Will do, thank you! It's gonna be more like a "rinse" than a "flush" but better than nothing, I guess... ;)
I saw rust colored stuff while draining the fluid and I want to get rid of as much of it as possible before installing the new parts
IIRC, I think all that rust colored water is from the block/water pump/etc. If the rad hasn't been flushed in a long time, yeah, that's normal.
Then probably I'll have some extra trouble, because the engine sometimes (in hot summer days and slow traffic situations) showed overheating signs: overheating shouldn't be possible with such a set up (fan always on and no thermostat). But we'll talk about it later, if and when it will happen...
I guess that depends. Any car will overheat if it's hot enough out, and you're just getting hot air off the pavement and off other cars. But with not having a thermostat and it running all the time, that normally shouldn't overheat.
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That tensioner could crack as its just a cast pot metal.
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It almost sounds like an SAE/Metric difference, but it could be a different thread count too. If you didn't know, SAE has both fine and course thread.
Do you have access to a tap and die set to make a determination?
The smaller bolts should work, though. I've seen it done many times on accessory mounts.
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Mudkicker: I'll use my preferred method, then: fingers crossed while tightening. It prevents me from applying too much torque ;D
Ben: yeah, I thought about that too. Lots of metric stuff in my Eagle, still sometimes I stumble upon something SAE. Probably the original pump has metric threads and this new one has them not.
What's more, I discovered it's made in China. Too bad... This part has an Italian name (Cardone), is meant for USA cars, comes from the States and it's manufactured in CHINA ??? I hate it.
Anyways, I'll go with the smaller bolts solution. Let's hope everything will work out just fine. I'm tired of seeing the car sitting there...
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Well, I didn't succeed in taking my afternoon off, so I'll work on this next sunday. All right.
Just one more question about the bolts: I searched everywhere but there's no way to get hold of a SAE bolt that fits the two bracket holes in the new pump.
The good part: the shorter bolt (the one for the PS pump bracket) is reusable. It fits (after a good cleaning) the lower hole of the water pump. OK.
The bad: the other one (the one for the upper belt tensioner bracket) is shot. I've bent it in the removal process, so no way to reuse it, and the threads are mostly gone.
At first I thought about using a smaller one (as in the previous comment) but I'm in doubt. I'm afraid that too much clearance between the bracket hole and the bolt itself could allow the bracket to "pivot" on the two upper fixings (the protruding studs of the head bolts) and eventually, in the long run, cause it to crack under the belt pressure and vibrations.
I'd prefer a tight fit, so I thought I might go with this: the original 3/8" bolt is a tad thicker than a 9mm metric one.
Would it be a bad idea drilling the upper hole of the water pump up to 10mm and then using a normal 10mm pass through bolt with washers and nut to hold everything together ? The tensioner bracket hole is not threaded and the 10mm bolt fills it perfectly.
In the end, I'm willing to get rid of the water pump hole threads: that would allow the "normal" 10mm bolt to pass through it.
The question is: using an HSS point and driving carefully (and slowly) the drill, how many chances do I have to crack the water pump housing ?
I know it might sound crazy (I'll work half an hour to do something that usually takes 30 seconds), but if you lived in a totally metric world you would understand me better ;)
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I would prefer using a drilll stand, HSS is fine.
Clamp the pump down with on a piece of hard wood and use high speed and low feed.
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Yay !! I've made it !
A wonderful saturday for me... the Eagle is on the road AGAIN (until next trouble will show up, of course).
I took my time to do everything in a relaxed way, so I also took care of other minor things while I was at it.
I chickened out about the drilling part, so (after evaluating the "pivot" risk) I went with the smaller bolt , washers and nut solution. It seems to hold everything in place just fine so, why worry ?
So, what I've done so far ?
- Flushed the block and the radiator;
- Cleaned up everything in places I never thought I could have access to;
- Installed the thermostat in place of the non-existing one (and drilled it before);
- New t-stat housing (I didn't crack anything, I just thought the brand new one would look cooler ;) );
- Obviously, new water pump;
- New fan clutch;
- New rad hoses (upper and lower - I also reinstalled the spring into the lower one);
- About 10 liters of 50/50 cooling fluid (it really takes so much) !
I drove about 100 miles since then and I noticed some things:
Now I know how an Eagle cooling system should work... and I guess it never worked right since I had the car. I always thought that either the gauge or the sender or both were faulty, but I was wrong. With the t-stat installed and the fan working as it's supposed to, the needle reaches the middle of the green zone in minutes and then it just STAYS THERE, floating a bit near the upper green limit in slow traffic and a bit lower on the highway. SWEET !! I love it.
Also, the "working" fan clutch is a great thing... the engine runs way smoother and quieter, the pulleys and belts are no longer dragging a stuck fan at impossible speeds, it seems I'm driving another car.
Too soon to tell, but it also seems I'm getting better MPG.
I think we can archive this under the "been there, done that" section. If anyone needs help with water pump related stuff, I'm here to lend a hand... quite an "expert" now ! ;)
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Congratulations! ............ it will get just into the green zone when it is really cold out, but you will have plenty of heat, even then.
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Good to see it working. It sounds like it cools perfectly now.
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was told I need a new clutch fan also, what exactly does the eagle have? Is it a thermal or non thermal that spins clockwise?
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Thermal
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Just a bit of info, I have found that if you are working on an older car, "Generally" if you fix one item in a given system, there will be an issue with something up or down the line from it. IE: You change the alternator only to find out you have a bad battery or something dragging on your belt/pulley system. OR You change the fuel pump then find you have hoses beginning to crack and leak. or some dang crazy thing. so keep this in mind. You would be surprised how many times fixing one thing may actually help you "Discover" a weak area down the line in a given system or set of systems.
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If it's Vee belt, it's clockwise. If serpentine belt, it's counter clockwise!