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Author Topic: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4  (Read 13207 times)

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Offline macdude443

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Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« on: September 13, 2011, 11:51:31 PM »
Here's the usual chain of events when I start out from a stop:

1st, 2nd, Flare-up/Rev-Up/Slip, ease off pedal, slow into 3rd.  I've noticed that if I ease off the pedal when I get into 2nd, it will shift to third just fine, without any flare-up/revving of the engine.  But if I keep constant pressure on the pedal (like if I were merging) the odd shifting occurs as described above.

Going up hills I have to mash the pedal into the floor to get it to upshift, otherwise it struggles and tries to continue up the hill in 3rd.

Kickdown band adjustment?  I haven't yet checked the throttle rod adjustment.  I'm just worried it might be bad.  Thoughts?
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2011, 01:43:35 AM »
(assume you have the ATF fluid level correct)

Yup.
Hoping this isn't any of the valves or bands inside.

Before spending bucks at a transmission shop, you need to check that the gear selection linkage is still properly setup (or parts have not worn too much). The transmission may not be fully and accurately in gear, resulting in the slipping you describe.
If it's way off, starting in P and N and not being able to start in the others may be off.
You need to check the TSM on how to correctly sync the gear selector to the linkage shaft it connects to.

TIPS:
There's a bolt through the bottom of the gear selector that tightens to grip the linkage shaft. Sometimes this bolt likes to tighten into it's old position, so you have to sand or file down the linkage shaft a tiny bit to get rid of the old indents so the bolt will tight to where you want it. (it's really fun trying to get your arm/hand up in there)
Watch out for the plastic bushing connectors on the linkages. May be worn too far and allowing excess movement so the correct gear cannot be accurately selected.

Slipping behaviour is well known, and if this is it, you may have caught it early enough before the front clutch is worn to the point of needing replacing. If not caught early, and the gear selection adjusted correctly, the front clutch will wear out.
Front clutch handles 3rd and reverse. Eventually it slips in both 3rd and reverse. Usually means new front clutch time. As the clutch slips, over time the ATF fluid will start to smell and discolour (burnt).

If the plastic bushings are not worn, and you adjust the gear selection lever to the linkage shaft correctly, then if you still have the slipping you'll have to check the bands, have a shop adjust it externally, and then look inside the trans.

After any trans work, check the gear selection for proper adjustment. DO NOT ASSUME the shop did it right. DO NOT ACCEPT them saying it can't be adjusted correctly (i.e., bolt won't tighten in correct spot, etc.). If not adjusted correctly, it will wear out. First hand personal experience.

The TSM also details a road test procedure for the trans, to narrow it down further if required.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 01:50:54 AM by Canoe »

Offline LkN

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 02:46:25 AM »
Make sure the throttle valve linkage adjustment is correct and that the throttle valve lever & linkage is freely moving and not sticky or binding.
With the gas pedal nearly all the way down, but still room to travel there should be a distinctive detent feel in the pedal as you push it all the way down. That is the kickdown position and where the internal spring in the valve body gives way and forces the downshift to second.

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 02:10:47 PM »
Except what he is describing is slipping in 3rd under load.
And successful downshifting with the kick-down.

Offline LkN

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2011, 03:05:30 AM »
What I get out of it is the kickdown function is totally out of adjustment as one potential problem. slippage occurs when the clutch discs are simply worn out from usage (29 years is a long run) or when the line pressure isnt sufficent to hold the clutch pack applied. Loss of line pressure can result from incorrect fluid levels (too much can be just as bad as not enough, its gets aerated), leaking seal allowing it to bleed off or like already suggested and what is very true in many cases. The filter gets forgotten about and its a solid black nasty mass by now.

If its doing the 1>2>3 shifting pattern then the valve body is in Drive. Unless the detent ball & spring is gone and is allowing the selector valve to freely move during operation (It does happen and sonnax has a fix kit for it)

3rd/direct is both the front and rear clutches applied sending power straight through.

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 02:55:24 PM »
...slippage occurs when the clutch discs are simply worn out from usage (29 years is a long run) or when the line pressure isnt sufficent to hold the clutch pack applied...
And when gear selection is off. Read the TSM.
Not speculation: First hand personal experience. Myself and others.
If you don't fix it when it starts slipping, it will wear the front clutch out.
Catch it right away, do the adjustment correctly, front clutch doesn't wear out.
Don't catch it in time, will continue slipping in 3rd under load, will start slipping more in 3rd and reverse, until it spins freely in both.

And it's in the TSM, along with how to adjust it.
Check out the trans road test.

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 03:45:11 PM »
I ordered the TSM.  Since it isn't here yet, I've tried the following:

The shift level did appear to be slightly off.  The mech that locks the level into place wasn't quite right.  So I tried driving it by shifting and not letting the button lock in the gear.  I shifted to where it felt engaged and then gently released the button on the shifter so it would stay in this "in between" position.  There was no change in shift performance.  Maybe I'm just confused.  I need that service manual.

I feel confident to adjust the kickdown band myself, I just need a decent torque wrench.
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 07:11:17 PM »
... I shifted to where it felt engaged and then gently released the button on the shifter so it would stay in this "in between" position.  There was no change in shift performance...

The "rev-up/flare-up/slip" happens when the trans has shifted into 3rd, but the torque is too much for the front clutch to grip. When you back off the throttle, that lower torque the front clutch can grip. According to the TSM, this can happen when the gear selector lever/rod adjustment is off, even slightly. I had this happen to me. I didn't check the TSM and it cost me the front clutch. The more your drive it while in this condition, the more you are wearing the front clutch. Wear it too far, you will have to replace it. If you have to drive the car before you get this fixed, I'd very strongly suggest that you use minimal acceleration when shifting from 2nd to 3rd, and when driving in 3rd. Don't even dream of pulling a trailer or carrying heavy loads.

The trans is pretty robust, so the most likely (and fortunately least costly and easiest to address) is the gear selection (P|R|N|D|2|1) lever/rod adjustment. Playing with the movement of the gear selector lever is fine, but the problem is likely due to play in the connections between the gear selector lever through to the input to the transmission: you can't get it into the right position and stay there - the play in the connections doesn't allow it.
If you or anyone before haven't moved the base house of the gear selector lever around, or adjusted the connection position on the rod that attaches to the bottom of that, then the most likely culprit is excessive wear to the connectors that connect:
* the gear selector lever to the rod (bushing, #19 in the diagram; rod, #21),
* the rod at the front end where it connects to the transmission (#25 in the diagram)

You'll likely have to find less worn connectors at the junk yard.
It's a tight fit to get your hands up there from the bottom. I don't recall if I was reaching around the skid plate (lazy) or if I'd already taken it off. I hope your hands and arms are small.

As noted in the Tip of my prior post, with new/different connectors, the correct attachment/tighten point of the gear selector to the rod may be slightly different than original. But the bolt (#24 in the diagram) that tightens against the rod will have either mulitple points on the end or a single point on the end with which to tightly hold the rod (have seen both types on Eagles). These points may have left indents in the rod that the bolt end will try to slip into, instead of tightening on the exact correct location the adjustment requires. Simply sand the indent(s) out. Do not accept an "off" adjustment, you will eventually lose the front clutch. A lazy transmission shop convinced me it couldn't be adjusted correctly and my front clutch was too worn by the time I took matters into my own hands and read the TSM and did the adjustment myself.

Eaglepedia parts diagram 38.23.1


The kick-down is almost always fine, excepting for the kick-down throttle linkage, which can be restricted from moving properly by accumulated grease, oil, dirt and rust. Brake cleaner. Here in the Rust Belt I always kept a spare ready to swap in. Rust is why the kick-down linkage is one of the must-grap parts when visiting a junk-yard. It's a pain to reach down in, but it's easy to replace and adjust (with the TSM, which you have on the way).

Note: I did encounter one gear selection lever assembly where the pivot of the selection lever was so worn that it caused so much play that adjustment was impossible and a less worn selection lever assembly was required.

It's a shame so many of the old threads are lost. This has been well documented in the past, as it keeps coming up over the years.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 07:15:09 PM by Canoe »

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 09:57:36 PM »
So to adjust it, I would release the rod on either the shift lever or transmission end, put the transmission in it's farthest extreme (park) along with the gear shift lever and then tighten back up?  Will I feel the correct gear when adjusting the transmission end, to be sure it's truly in gear?  Or does the extreme position on the trans mark Park and the shift lever lock mechanism actually keep it locked in each respective gear?
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 09:59:46 PM »
And I can't tell you how much I appreciate the detailed information.  This is not my primary vehicle, so I am not driving it until I can fix the issue.
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2011, 11:34:53 AM »
I don't have either my Shop Manual or TSM where I am. I can't check what the proper procedure is. Don't guess. Replacing a front clutch costs too much.

... does the extreme position on the trans mark Park and the shift lever lock mechanism actually keep it locked in each respective gear?
The indents in the plate in the selector lever assembly are what provides the correct registration for correct and accurate gear selection.

But, you have to ensure there is not too much play in the connections...

Good it's not your primary vehicle.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 12:22:34 PM by Canoe »

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2011, 11:38:50 AM »
Just for the heck of it, I dropped by a local trans shop today.  The guy drove it around the block and concluded that the problem is a "drum seal" that needs to be replaced.  Said they'd have to remove the transmission.  $800.  Sound like it could be the case?  He also said he'd still flush it if I wanted, but that it'd be a waste of my money.  I found that strange.  I've never read anything about a drum seal of any kind when reading about 2-3 shifting.
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1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2011, 12:22:10 PM »
Another shop wants $1400 for a rebuild.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2011, 12:31:57 PM by macdude443 »
1982 Eagle SX/4
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Offline SleepsUnderCars

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2011, 02:23:18 PM »
$1400 for a rebuild? Ouch !  I can get a reman for around $1100 through a connection of mine. Or come on out and I'll give you a deal on the trans in the parts wagon. ( Gotta help pull it)
check local yards at www.car-part.com
prices near you ranging from $125 and up for a used one.
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2011, 11:51:10 PM »
... drove it around the block and concluded that the problem is a "drum seal" that needs to be replaced. ... Sound like it could be the case?  He also said he'd still flush it if I wanted, but that it'd be a waste of my money. ...

NO!

And he did this without the TSM's Diagnostic Trans Driving test?
Do not get any transmission work done until YOU get a TSM and read about that test and YOU do the test.
Your described problem exactly matches poor linkage to gear selection. Hopefully, you (or others before you) haven't worn the clutch down too much.
Without the TSM driving test, you're speculating.

Flush the trans? Sure, if you want to have to rebuild it within two years. Flushing loosens debris within the trans. Sounds great, only you never get all of what you stirred up to drain out. This leaves loose debris inside and turns the new trans fluid into a thin jewelers rouge and it wears the trans out.

Stop Speculating.
Wait for your TSM.

And, a completely rebuilt and perfect transmission will have the same problem if the linkage isn't adjusted correctly, and if there's too much play.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 12:44:36 AM by Canoe »

Offline amcinstaller

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2011, 12:11:02 AM »
and if a trans flush does get all the crap out, itll also take the crap that was holding your old unserviced transmission together. seen/heard of that many times. drives in for the flush, wont drive out.
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Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2011, 04:01:43 AM »
Car is permanently parked and I'm patiently waiting for the TSM.  Would there be a confirmation of it being mailed?  I haven't heard anything.
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1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline SleepsUnderCars

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2011, 10:20:45 AM »
be patient. Doug has not been feeling well lately, and is a little backed up on orders.
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'88 Dodge Ramcharger 
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2011, 11:35:11 AM »
Car is permanently parked and I'm patiently waiting for the TSM.  Would there be a confirmation of it being mailed?  I haven't heard anything.
be patient. Doug has not been feeling well lately, and is a little backed up on orders.

I'll get you the gear selection linkage procedure. My manuals are at my Dad's place. May take a few days.

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2011, 04:35:42 PM »
be patient. Doug has not been feeling well lately, and is a little backed up on orders.

Ah, alright.  I hope he feels better.  Everyone is getting sick around the office.  Can't wait til it gets to me  :-\.
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1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 11:38:50 PM »
This vehicle was bought very recently (about a month) from a nest member.  It was modified to run on a GM tbi, which may have different throttle linkage.  I talked to the owner and he said he didn't have any problems at all with the trans.  He said he would read the thread and describe the mods made so they can be taken into consideration with the problem (I don't know a great deal about the tbi).  The ad said it was rebuilt, which was a good selling point for me.  Here's the thread regarding the sale:  http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36282.0
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2011, 03:17:55 PM »
TBI has nothing to do with gear selection linkage. As they didn't have any problems, more likely a part worn out. Most likely that bushing.
And you report that it does kickdown out of 3rd into 2nd.

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 05:06:11 PM »
Ok.  Yes, it will kick down, although it's sometimes poor on hills.  It kicks down great when coming to a stop.
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2011, 12:48:17 AM »
I talked to another transmission expert at my brother's shop.  He's worked on torqueflites for years.  He was confident that it was a drum seal and that the clutches were probably shot by this point.
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2011, 04:20:13 PM »
Boy you're determined to spend money.

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2011, 07:13:44 PM »
I'm not spending a dime until I check with the service manual.  I had talked to that guy before I parked it, he just now got back to me.
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1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2011, 07:14:44 PM »
Just letting you know what I'm being told is all.
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline Canoe

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2011, 03:41:08 AM »
I haven't forgotten. I have the manuals now. Will get the info for you shortly.

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2011, 06:44:33 AM »
Great! Thanks!
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1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2011, 10:13:25 PM »
Here's a link to some photos and ongoing status of the car...

http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36776.0
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

Offline carnuck

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2011, 07:45:48 AM »
High forward clutch seal. Every time it slips, the clutches slip and heat up. No bands involved when the trans shifts into drive (other than one loosens as the clutches are supposed to engage) Some places have blasted me for this (RM means Rambler Mentality. ie: Not $pending unless I had to) I put a can of STP engine oil treatment in mine for more solid shifts.
The passing gear linkage controls when the trans upshifts and downshifts. Most AMC guys go with a Lokar kickdown cable when they change the fuel system.
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Offline macdude443

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Re: Lousy shifting, 82 SX/4
« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2011, 11:28:14 AM »
I poured in some Lucas Transmission Fix a while back.  Smoother shifting, but still shifts.  I also noticed that when I first start to drive, it's very hard to get into second.  It'll keep going in first until you "goose it" and then it shifts hard into second.

I haven't driven it in a while.  It was trailored to the garage it's in.
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon

 

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