AMC Eagle Den Forum
The Shop => Project Cars => Topic started by: mach1mustang351 on October 07, 2011, 01:44:39 AM
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Hi everyone. This has been a long process and I have finally done enough driving in the car to be comfortable with the results. Some of you may have been following my thread form a few years back on the "Baja 1000 Eagle." In the thread I attempted to make a 3" body lift for the car. My friend Mike and I made it happen but the car never worked quite right with the steering. We started over. During this time, I picked up another '87 Wagon and proceeded to do a 4.0L, AX15 and a NP242 swap. I decided I wanted one Eagle. I took the proper lift things and put them in the 4.0 car. After readdressing the steering issue I have a combination that works.
I put the car together drove it a limited amount and put it on a trailer and moved form Central CA to Anchorage, AK. I have been driving the car every day and have had no issues with the lift. A few other components have needed repair but the "impossible" unitbody body lift is a success. We are quickly coming up on winter in AK so I wanted to get a thread started to show you how I did it. Kind of like a winter project.
Unfortunately the fabrication skills required and the machining needed this is not a reasonable undertaking for the average do it yourselfer. After everything I do believe a solid axle swap would be the easiest way to go but for a daily driver and to prove it was possible I wanted to keep the IFS and make it go. I will try and get some pictures this weekend and get this going.
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Eye wide and ears open.
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Eye wide and ears open.
AGREED!
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I remember that from a while back, (where's the popcorn smiley?).
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Eye wide and ears open.
Same here. We all like to see different renditions of Eagle lifting.
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I will be lifting an 83 Wagon this winter so I'm very interested. I want as much lift with as little troubles as possible. Not looking to trail the Eagle, but looking to get some decent rubber under it and never want it to high center in the snow.
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I want as much lift with as little troubles as possible.
When you figure that out, let the rest of us know.
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Here are a couple pictures of the finished product.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0055.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0056.jpg)
This is an over all 3 inch lift in the front and 4.5 in the rear
I have some radius rod bushings to replace this week so I will snap some detailed lift pictures.
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The tire is a 235/75/15. This makes for a pretty reasonable height and a good look. I had another eagle that had 31x10.5 but it didn't have the road manners this one has.
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looks awesome. I'm very interested in how you did this.
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As I stated in the first post here, this is a body lift. The next statement is always "you can't body lift a unit body car." Well the reality is, yes you can, but it requires a lot of work. The theory is the same as a body lift as on a conventional body on frame vehicle. There are a few more complications. So what happened was the body went up.
We'll Start at the back:
The body had to go up... or the springs went down... depending on how you look at it. This method was preferred because of some of the unwanted characteristics associated with lift blocks. On a street driven vehicle the blocks are probably okay but the original intent of this vehicle was to desert race so durability was important.
These lift pieces were made from 2x3 3/16 wall steel. In an effort to save $$$ the steel used was all remnant form the local steel yard at $0.55 a lb. This 3" material accounted for 3" of the lift in the rear and the other 1.5" came from the springs. No those aren't stock :) They came from Alcan spring and I had them put in another 1.5 over stock just for a different stance.
This is the setup at the rear of the spring. I uses stock shackles because the vehicle ended up being a street car and I don't feel it necessary to go heavy duty at this point.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0068.jpg)
This is the setup at the front of the leaf spring. It fits inside where the front eyelet used to go. I also cut an additional hole in the frame rail to add a second bolt to the lift piece for support.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0070.jpg)
If you have a super keen eye you may realize the new spring bolt and the first lift piece bolt dont line up. This is by design and I opted to move the spring back slightly giving me a little longer wheel base.
Here is a look at the springs and shocks. Those are Rancho 9000 series. I couldn't get a decent picture but on the passenger side the upper mount had to be moved inward so the base of the shock would clear the bigger thicker spring pack.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0069.jpg)
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The front took some more time as I had steering to deal with. The same 2x3 steel stock was used there are reinforcements where the long bolts go through to keep the bolts from crushing the tube. The cradle was then bolted to the new lift piece.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0061.jpg)
The radius rod brackets were now a little off too... go figure. I cut the straight piece and extended it the 3" and a 2" piece was used to compensate for the piece that bolts to the dropped portion of the unit body frame.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0062.jpg)
The struts that run to the front of the car were now 3"short of bolting in so some boxed pieces were made with reinforcements. I then tied them to the 3x2 for the engine cradle with 1" square. I then tied them together with the same 1" tube. Probably not necessary for strength but it came in handy later for correcting the steering issues.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0065.jpg)
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This is for perspective. Three inches of body lift really set the engine deep into the engine compartment.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0066.jpg)
The 4.0 swap had it's issues that were further compounded by the lift.
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With the Ax15 swap I had mount issues for the transmission. This is the setup that works for me. I started by modifying the AMC crossmember but it didn't work as expected and after about 5000 miles it started to bend. I built a custom unit from scratch. I had to drop the crossmember 3" or lift the body 3" at this point, depending how you look at it.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0067.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0071.jpg)
I also had to put the mount in a different spot as the AX 15 doesn't mount in the same spot as the 904. I uses poly sway bar end link bushings as inspired by someone else on this board that did this swap. I cant find their info to give them proper credit but if you are looking chime in. I was going to use a mount but I liked this setup as it is solid and gives me a little more ground clearance.
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Now up to this point many of you might be thinking "hey this looks pretty doable." You're absolutely right and making these pieces isn't all that bad as long as you can cut and weld steel. This was the third attempt at making this steer right. If yall are following the concept everything bolted to the body becomes 3" further from things bolted to the engine cradle. This includes the steering knuckles. I have posted on a few threads in the past about people wanting make balljoint spacers to lift their eagles. I have reccomended no on all of them, Why?? Because we tried that first to make this work. This setup created obscene camber issues on suspension compression and rebound causing the vehicle to be terrible going over any sort of bump. I revised the ball joint spacer a couple times to try and make the problem go away. No luck. So what did we do... my buddy Mike and I made some knuckled that are 3" longer.
This is what puts the project out of reach. We worked as machinests in the past and had access to the equipment to make this happen. The costs of having someone do this for you, if they would even accept the job, are going to be way too high to make it worth it. The amount of hours spent on our knuckles was crazy. Knuckles were cut. Hours were spent making a jig to hold the knuckled while it was milled to perfection. The other end was machined then the spacer piece was machined using aircraft grade billet aluminum. The spacers were then machined to tight tollerences on bolt holes to ensure a tight fit when all pieces were bolted together. We used aircraft grade fasteners and put them together. This solved our camber issues. And not to sound like I am tooting my own horn, when installed and taken to the alignment shop there were no camber adjustments required as the control arms weren't removed. Very tight and accurate machining. My buddy Mike hit a homer here.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0059.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0064.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0063.jpg)
The stepped portion of the aluminum fit into machined steps in the cut knuckle sections to keep them aligned and to keep them from moving during driving situations.
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That should be good for now. I bet this brings up some questions so feel free to ask and I'll answer. It all seems so simple posting a few pictures and short explanations but the actual process was very long and involved. The only things I haven't really covered are the steering and I will get to that. For now lets talk the suspension portion.
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For the knuckles, did you just cut a block of aluminum down to the outer specs you needed, or did you actually mill away material on the inside to lighten it up? More pictures of the knuckles would be great if you had them. I'm curious as to how intricate you made them.
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The whole thing looks pretty cool. Eggs to you for the great fab work.
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For the knuckles, did you just cut a block of aluminum down to the outer specs you needed, or did you actually mill away material on the inside to lighten it up? More pictures of the knuckles would be great if you had them. I'm curious as to how intricate you made them.
I will absolutely get some more detailed pictures for you guys on the knuckles as this is the most interesting part of the car by a long shot.
The aluminum portion is solid. It started life as a rectangle. Slowly but surely it got turned into the proper width and the steps were machined in for the cut portions of the knuckle.
Machining the aluminum piece was the easiest part. The tough part was making the jig and machining the cut knuckle portions. That is extremely hard material and it needed to be precise to make it all work.
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Now up to this point many of you might be thinking "hey this looks pretty doable." You're absolutely right and making these pieces isn't all that bad as long as you can cut and weld steel. This was the third attempt at making this steer right. If yall are following the concept everything bolted to the body becomes 3" further from things bolted to the engine cradle. This includes the steering knuckles. I have posted on a few threads in the past about people wanting make balljoint spacers to lift their eagles. I have reccomended no on all of them, Why?? Because we tried that first to make this work. This setup created obscene camber issues on suspension compression and rebound causing the vehicle to be terrible going over any sort of bump. I revised the ball joint spacer a couple times to try and make the problem go away. No luck. So what did we do... my buddy Mike and I made some knuckled that are 3" longer.
This is what puts the project out of reach. We worked as machinests in the past and had access to the equipment to make this happen. The costs of having someone do this for you, if they would even accept the job, are going to be way too high to make it worth it. The amount of hours spent on our knuckles was crazy. Knuckles were cut. Hours were spent making a jig to hold the knuckled while it was milled to perfection. The other end was machined then the spacer piece was machined using aircraft grade billet aluminum. The spacers were then machined to tight tollerences on bolt holes to ensure a tight fit when all pieces were bolted together. We used aircraft grade fasteners and put them together. This solved our camber issues. And not to sound like I am tooting my own horn, when installed and taken to the alignment shop there were no camber adjustments required as the control arms weren't removed. Very tight and accurate machining. My buddy Mike hit a homer here.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0059.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0064.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/DSCI0063.jpg)
The stepped portion of the aluminum fit into machined steps in the cut knuckle sections to keep them aligned and to keep them from moving during driving situations.
That was pretty much how I did my design except that instead of making upper balljoint spacers, new upper arms that dropped down 2-3" more (depending on the lift. Mine was 2" Steel rectangular tube between the frame and engine crossbar)
And using the steering box drop plate from an early FSJ helped too (I had to make a plate for the idler arm on the other side)
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So you built a new upper control arm?? This was a plan of mine as well but I decided on this plan for serviceability of the car. With this setup I modified a non wear part so balljoints, bushings etc are all stock. I did have to drop the steering gear and the idler. I made plates to make this happen as well. I would love to see your pics to see your version.
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That was pretty much how I did my design except that instead of making upper balljoint spacers, new upper arms that dropped down 2-3" more (depending on the lift. Mine was 2" Steel rectangular tube between the frame and engine crossbar)
And using the steering box drop plate from an early FSJ helped too (I had to make a plate for the idler arm on the other side)
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And I wouldn't consider this design a ball joint spacer as the balljoint still bolts in the stock position on the control arm. It is more like buying a drop spindle for the truck applications.
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Unfortunately I didn't build the arms. Didn't have the money or equipment to do so. Ball joint spacers were also tried on Cam Brown's car (He was my ex-wife's neighbor) He ended up putting non-flared Concord fenders to clear the 33/9.50/15s in front.
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Excellent work!
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Excellent work!
Thanks!!! I appreciate it. The fun fact is that it is my daily driver and I use it for work as well.
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Actually I should say more...I'm DAMM impressed! It looks great, the ride height is spot on, and you put tons of thought and effort into it. wow is all I can say.
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Actually I should say more...I'm DAMM impressed! It looks great, the ride height is spot on, and you put tons of thought and effort into it. wow is all I can say.
Mick,
That means a lot to me because I was admiring your wagon last week wondering why I didn't use my time and effort to go solid axle in the same way you did. I guess the grass is always greener on the other side :) If you ever want to trade let me know.
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Thought I'd add some to my thread here. I found some pics I took of the cross member build to make the 4.0/AX15 swap work. This setup worked a lot better than my welded extension to the stock cross member that proceeded to bend and make all kinds of noise.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/0904111526.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/0904111526a.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/0904111527.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e99/mach1mustang351/0904111548.jpg)
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Here's another thought I was working on. Rathen than drop the motor and trans down, what about new motor mount plates on the engine and lowering the axle with the cross member?
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Here's another thought I was working on. Rathen than drop the motor and trans down, what about new motor mount plates on the engine and lowering the axle with the cross member?
You could but then you would still have the steering knuckle issue because the crossmember (lower control arm mounts to it) drops down and the upper control arm stays in the same place. the engine dropping down with the trans creates hardly and extra issues. The HUGE issue is the knuckle.
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Wonder if that difference could be made up by fabbing up new tube upper control arms to compensate the drop?
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There was a member a few years back that had some custom arms made by a guy who worked at Orange County Chopper. Unfortunately, the info was lost in the great delete. I don't remember his user name but he was out of NY. I wish someone would have saved the pics of the suspension and info. This is the only pic I have of the car.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/svoman2300/AMC%20Eagles/LiftedAMCEagle.jpg)
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I remember seeing pictures of the car, never the suspension set up though, good to know, that it "could" be an option as well.
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The control arm idea was something I considered as well. My deciding factor was I am all about making things serviceable. The less custom things you have to make and the more available service parts you can use the better. This is why I modified the knuckle. Now I can still buy ball joints from any parts store and control arm bushings from any parts store. Messing with the suspension system and steering can lead to all kinds of issues driving the car. Many of us can cut and weld but not many of us have engineering backgrounds or the tooling to make accurate parts like control arms.
I'm not trying to stifle ideas but I wanted to share my thought process.
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I was thinking new upper arms would also take care of one of the weak points
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I was thinking new upper arms would also take care of one of the weak points
Which weak points are you referring to??
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I've bent a couple upper arms while errmm... jumping my first wagon (did the same in a few Hornets I drove around the back 40)
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I've bent a couple upper arms while errmm... jumping my first wagon (did the same in a few Hornets I drove around the back 40)
Okay now we're getting to the bottom of the issue ;) If we're talking jumping, off roading or anything of that nature, my lift will not work. Absolutely building some longer tubular control arms is the way to go, and using some coilovers or something.
Not to go off on another rant or sounding like I am on my soap box but here it goes...
I have worked in shops and worked in aftermarket parts and in a machine shop so I have seem many sides of the automotive world. The thing that has to happen when a project is started is the vehicle owner needs to be very real with themselves. You have to know what you are looking to do with the vehicle and how much you have to spend and how much effort you have to put into the project. Trying to sell parts to a person that wants to go hardcore desert racing but also drive the car to work is going to have to compromise.
I built my setup because I wanted to prove a concept, retain the IFS and have a daily drivable vehicle. I think I have obtained that... minus a few kinks that need worked out.
Sorry for the rant but I get frustrated on behalf of others who walk down a path and run out of money or end up with a vehicle that isn't what they want.
Point being. I think my design is durable enough to be a basis for your project "Jumping Wagon" (I like how that sounds) but I would work on tubular control arms, coil overs, and you will need to find some longer CVs. If you are in AK I would even be willing to help you build it. This was my original idea for my car but I got "real" with myself and decided I wanted a driver and I didn't have the time or desire to have a dedicated off road eagle.
Anyway. Just some thoughts for the day.
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Good point on "able to get off the shelf" parts availability. That would be something to take into consideration while building a custom arm, bushings would be a breeze, the ball joint however, are the eagles press in or the rivet/bolt in type? If they're the bolt in type, it would work wonders....Of course I also agree with the point of building tubular arms wouldn't be a task for the faint of heart so to speak, ;) , lol., too many factors come into paly, and there's not much room for error.
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I've bent a couple upper arms while errmm... jumping my first wagon (did the same in a few Hornets I drove around the back 40)
Okay now we're getting to the bottom of the issue ;) If we're talking jumping, off roading or anything of that nature, my lift will not work. Absolutely building some longer tubular control arms is the way to go, and using some coilovers or something.
Not to go off on another rant or sounding like I am on my soap box but here it goes...
I have worked in shops and worked in aftermarket parts and in a machine shop so I have seem many sides of the automotive world. The thing that has to happen when a project is started is the vehicle owner needs to be very real with themselves. You have to know what you are looking to do with the vehicle and how much you have to spend and how much effort you have to put into the project. Trying to sell parts to a person that wants to go hardcore desert racing but also drive the car to work is going to have to compromise.
I built my setup because I wanted to prove a concept, retain the IFS and have a daily drivable vehicle. I think I have obtained that... minus a few kinks that need worked out.
Sorry for the rant but I get frustrated on behalf of others who walk down a path and run out of money or end up with a vehicle that isn't what they want.
Point being. I think my design is durable enough to be a basis for your project "Jumping Wagon" (I like how that sounds) but I would work on tubular control arms, coil overs, and you will need to find some longer CVs. If you are in AK I would even be willing to help you build it. This was my original idea for my car but I got "real" with myself and decided I wanted a driver and I didn't have the time or desire to have a dedicated off road eagle.
Anyway. Just some thoughts for the day.
I'm down here in Seattle, but I know the road conditions in AK fairly well (I drove the Haul rd to Valdez several times in winter conditions back in the '70s when I worked on the pipeline as a welder. Not for the feint of heart! No GPS back then either)
Your design is similar to how Cam Brown (Flying with V8 Eagles) and I (separately) figured out how to do it back in the '90s. We met on the net and found out he was right around the corner from my ex-wife!
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Hey guys. I haven't posted on my own thread in a while on my lifted car R&D. I have since driven to Fairbanks and still use the vehicle as a daily driver. My front end looseness issues have been solved for the most part. I still have a little play in the wheel (normal for conventional steering) and some popping coming from the left side of the car while backing. I am still looking to replace the lower control arm bushing on that side to handle that issue. Over the winter I developed some oil leaks. Oil pan, possibly rear main, trans input, and front shaft output are leaking. I am working on motivation to pull the trans and reseal it and at the same time sealing the oil pan. I am still fighting a gearing issue and I have located a replacement rear axle but am still trying to find the front needed for the 3.55.
The next big plan is the Prudhoe Bay drive next summer. There is a separate thread out for that.