Author Topic: Eagle extinction theory (Read 21351 times)

shanebo · « **on:** February 11, 2011, 01:34:06 AM »

I have always been a fan of AMC's and especially eagles and concords. I have always taken notice of them on the street, in classifieds, and on the net. After 1988 Im sure most of you noticed the rapid decline of the Eagle populations, sightings etc. I remember Eagles used to be fairly common here in colorado. I could name atleast five people back then that owned one or whos parents owned one. Around 1998 or so I noticed the first major die off..probably due to that magic 10 year number. I went from knowing 5 or 6 peole with eagles to maybe 2. After that the eagle poulation around here stayed fairly steady..While I didnt see them everywhere one didnt have to look hard to find one. I bought my first in 99 just a few years out of high school and there were still quite a few nice ones to choose from. Over the years I boutght and sold 3 more Eagles and every time they were just a bit scarcer. I bought my last one in late 06 early 07. Even then there were still a quite a few to choose form. Unfortunatly that nice little wagon got totalled a while back. Since then Ive been in the market for another..mostly window shopping but just waiting for the right one at the right price. I used to be able to get on the c-list or classifieds and see atleast one or two. Now however there is nothin!! one may pop up every other month..if im lucky. I know nothing lasts forever but you would thing if these cars are just rusting out or slowly dieing of old age they would be turning up more in salvage yards or fly by night dealerships. I have done some light research as to where these cars are disappearing to..and I have come to a rather disturbing conclusion..."Cash fo Clunkers". That program strictly mandated that all cars traded in under that program be destroyed. Participating dealers were required to pour calcium silicate into the engine and red line the thing till it was seized or blown to pieces..the car was then sent to be crushed. So many geat cars were executed in this fasion...and I know of atleast 2 Eagles that were destroyed. When we bought my wifes GMC Canyon there was a very nice eagle limited wagon in the back lot...I inqired about it and managment informed me they could not sell it under penalty of law...that It had to be destroyed. I am still doing research to find out roughly how many eagles ended their lives in this fasion..the other one I know of was traded in by a friend of mine..I offered to buy it from him but I did not have enough $ to match the 3000.00 cash for clunkers incentive and it too was off to the big Eagle heaven in the sky. Anyone else notice these die off patterns? and has anyone noticed the huge drop in available eagles population since that Cash fo Clunkers

Draekon · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:55:23 AM »

An interesting fact I noticed is that they classified AMC Eagles as a "Category 1 Truck"

ammachine390 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2011, 01:59:07 AM »

Well cash for clunkers happened in the summer of 2009. The program called that traded in cars be could not be older than 25 years. That means no 80-83 Eagles were crushed. Those were also the highest production years. So this means that of the 197,449 Eagles produced, 138,461 were safe. The remaining were eligible to be traded, but we know that many Eagles have rusted out and been scrapped over the last 30 years, and many are in the hands of people who care about them. So the odds of a lot getting crushed is pretty slim. Being from Chicago, I never saw Eagles, before and after cash for clunkers. In the last 5-10 years, I have only seen 2 Eagles in the area, as most cars rust away here with the humidity in the summer and the salt in the winter.

maddog · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2011, 02:21:10 AM »

as hard as it is for me to say i know of about ten to fifteen eagles that have been victim to cash for clunkers. and yes one of them was a mint kamback and an sx4, as well as several two and four door sedans and wagons.

greythorn3 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2011, 05:40:02 AM »

heck i only seen 2 sx4's here in alaska since 2003 and i own one of them!

HappyPappy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2011, 07:03:14 AM »

SHANEBO: Here is a link to check out when your looking for Eagles, http://daz.org/, it is a c-list link, but it cut all the bull out of what your looking for.

El Matador · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2011, 12:45:12 PM »

Quote from: maddog on February 11, 2011, 02:21:10 AM

as hard as it is for me to say i know of about ten to fifteen eagles that have been victim to cash for clunkers. and yes one of them was a mint kamback and an sx4, as well as several two and four door sedans and wagons.

The Kammback and SX/4 couldn't have been traded in under the federal CFC program, since they predated the 1984 cutoff. Must have been some sort of local or regional thing. Speaking of the 1984 limit, we can thank SEMA for fighting to have that implemented. If Cash For Clunkers had been open to older vehicles, who knows what would have been lost.

Awhile back, someone posted the list of vehicles that were scrapped under CFC. Some of them would have made you sick - for example, a Buick GNX and a GMC Typhoon.

According to this "official" list, 76 Eagles lost their lives to CFC. Not to mention numerous Jeep Grand Wagoneers, each of them with a 360 that is no longer available to the AMC hobby. Also about half a bazillion Cherokees and some Comanches as well.

All in the name of artificially propping up the auto industry for a brief time...

maddog · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2011, 08:03:22 PM »

the guy i got survivor from works at a crusher and he said they were brought in by licenced dealers for the cash for clunkers bs. so i"m only going by what he told me. oh and he owns a kamback himself and is not very happy to see all the eagles that are coming through his job.

tougeagle · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2011, 08:41:38 PM »

I myself hated the cash for clunkers thing, it made the price of decent used cars and trucks go up because over a quarter of a million of them were destroyed in the slaughter.

Shanebo, PM me, I think I have an option for you as far as an Eagle you might want goes.

shanebo · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2011, 09:16:12 PM »

It was a vehicular Holocaust. A tragic loss of so many great cars

eaglefreek · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2011, 09:40:24 PM »

As with any car, the number one cause of decline of the AMC Eagle is age. Once the value/cost of repair ratio is exceeded many go to the scrap yard. It's not worth it to many junkyards to keep them on the lot because there aren't many on the road in most areas.

vangremlin · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2011, 10:55:42 PM »

Quote from: eaglefreek on February 11, 2011, 09:40:24 PM

It's not worth it to many junkyards to keep them on the lot because there aren't many on the road in most areas.

Most of the junkyards around here are what I call "production" junkyards - they bring in the cars, let them sit on the lot for a prescribed length of time (a month? 6 weeks?) and then move them out, regardless of the historic value or how many usable parts are left. They certainly aren't like the old school junkyards where the cars were brought in forever, and you could literally find cars that had been there so long that there were trees growing through them.

eaglefreek · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2011, 09:04:06 AM »

Scrap metal prices are high right now and it doesn't make business sense to keep cars that people will only pick a few parts from. I wish I had the money and space to buy Eagles that pop up for sale cheap so they don't head for the scrap yard. There are a few cheap ones on CL in Idaho and Montana right now.

maddog · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2011, 11:13:51 PM »

Quote from: eaglefreek on February 12, 2011, 09:04:06 AM

Scrap metal prices are high right now and it doesn't make business sense to keep cars that people will only pick a few parts from. I wish I had the money and space to buy Eagles that pop up for sale cheap so they don't head for the scrap yard. There are a few cheap ones on CL in Idaho and Montana right now.

times 2.

shanebo · « **Reply #14 on:** February 13, 2011, 02:51:03 AM »

Ya know, if I ever hit the Lottery you guys will see me on an episode of Hoarders with my wife chasing me around my 100 acre compound of salvage Eagles swinging a rolling pin at my head!!

83Eagle! · « **Reply #15 on:** February 13, 2011, 11:14:40 AM »

Quote from: shanebo on February 13, 2011, 02:51:03 AM

Ya know, if I ever hit the Lottery you guys will see me on an episode of Hoarders with my wife chasing me around my 100 acre compound of salvage Eagles swinging a rolling pin at my head!!

Hahaha! That's great.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #16 on:** February 13, 2011, 01:56:21 PM »

I still consider myself a bit of a 'newbie' when it comes to the history and knowledge base about AMC's and Eagles, but I am old enough that I was shopping for cars when AMC was still a company. (I bought my first car in 1984-85). I also owned a 81 Spirit before American Motors was bought by Chrysler.

I noticed even back then, alot of people I ran into had nothing nice to say about AMC. I found people were fast to drop the cars then. I know this is redundant, but I noticed it back then where I grew up.

After AMC was folded into Chrysler (into the early 90's) where I'm from, you couldn't give away an AMC unless it was something like an AMX or a 'Machine' - Something really rare or sought after. Even still, they didn't fetch the price they do now.

So I'd say the first 'die-off' I noticed is just before AMC was sold. It wasn't really a die-off, but sales and interest did decrease. Maybe that is more accurate. I did notice in around '86-87, that people's interest was lessened.

But the real 'die-off' was just after AMC was sold. After that, I'd say into the mid to late '90's.

It's only recently, that the asking prices and interest in the cars have increased.

As a side note...

I find that soo strange, because as the cars get older, and the parts get harder to get, the cars are worth more??? when 15 years ago, the cars were still newer, had more life in them, less abuse and neglect, you could still buy most of the parts, and people couldn't wait to get rid of them.

Buying trends are weird...

83Eagle! · « **Reply #17 on:** February 13, 2011, 04:02:21 PM »

Quote from: vangremlin on February 11, 2011, 10:55:42 PM

Quote from: eaglefreek on February 11, 2011, 09:40:24 PM
It's not worth it to many junkyards to keep them on the lot because there aren't many on the road in most areas.

Most of the junkyards around here are what I call "production" junkyards - they bring in the cars, let them sit on the lot for a prescribed length of time (a month? 6 weeks?) and then move them out, regardless of the historic value or how many usable parts are left. They certainly aren't like the old school junkyards where the cars were brought in forever, and you could literally find cars that had been there so long that there were trees growing through them.

Yeah production junk yards are all we have around here. There was one north of here that sold when the owner died 4-5 years ago that had a number of older cars. They had a dozen or so AMCs. I remember seeing an orange eagle in the auction ad. when the owner died everything old was auctioned off. There are 2 yards still like that down near my college. The one guy keeps what he's interested in plus anything he can make money off of, then crushes everything else. He doesn't like AMC though. The other one I have not been to since high school. At that time it was a predominantely old Ford lot.

Budwisr · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2011, 06:00:18 PM »

I think the reason Eagles aren't around much anymore is two fold. And I don't think the 60 or 70 Eagles taken off the road by Cash for Clunkers contributed much to their disappearance.
First as someone mentioned, they're reached the end of their normal lifecycle. In a couple of years, every Eagle will be an antique. Antique cars just don't get used as much as a "used "car. Not too many cars of any make or model on the road daily without fuel injection for instance. Even in Kenosha where AMCs were everywhere as recent as the 90s, they are now pretty scarce on a day-to-day basis.
Second, they will continue to be crushed and disposed of until they are worth more money either whole or in parts . When they are worth more as scrap metal than as a car, simple economics say they will be recycled. Once they become rarer and the demand starts to outweigh the supply, the prices will go up and the disposal of the cars will slow. Just four years ago I sold a 28,000 mile wagon that needed very little and it took a while to sell at $3200. I originally bought it to use as a second car but after buying it I didn't want to run it into the ground. Hopefully it is not used a a daily driver but for $3200 it could very well have been. It could have 100,000 miles on it by now and all rusted out. If it had been worth $8,000 to $10,000 it more likely would still be in pristine shape. IMO Until the Eagles are viewed as collectors items and not as drivers to be used up, they will continue to become scarcer and scarcer and even nice ones will be crushed.

maddog · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2011, 08:48:13 PM »

if i ever won the lotto i would try to buy AMC from crysler and bring it back.

shanebo · « **Reply #20 on:** February 14, 2011, 12:00:39 AM »

im sure as far as amc's lost to the the cash for clunker the wagoneers, older cherokees and comanchees took the brunt of it. Eagles were already fairly scarce in 2009 when the program took place. Just think if cash for clunkers took place in the early to mid 90's...there would be no amc's left at all.

amc78concord · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2011, 12:09:24 AM »

Quote from: maddog on February 13, 2011, 08:48:13 PM

if i ever won the lotto i would try to buy AMC from crysler and bring it back.

Cheers

greythorn3 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 15, 2011, 06:19:10 AM »

if they were produced today they would be crap! computer assembled chinese garbage. i could almost guarentee it..

speaking of sx4's i see alllot of crossovers nowadays that think they are a new thing.. the sx4 was the original! and allot more ground clearance compared to todays crossovers.

IowaEagle · « **Reply #23 on:** February 15, 2011, 06:23:05 AM »

I see Subaru is now using: "The original SUV alternative." I guess they can get away with it now.

craigp29690 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 15, 2011, 11:22:59 AM »

I would join you all in the AMC rescue program, well actually I have but had to stop due to space and our zoning laws that require a non-registered car to be in an enclosed carport or garage. So since I don't have room for a warehouse and I don't want to have to license and insure every car on my property, I've had to let a few slip past. ARGH!

Even though I'm pout in the country on acreage, the social snobs who have migrated into the south have brought their attitudes and desire to control everthing and everybody to town.

I've let one Eagle pass by, and Ambassador Sedan and a Rebel in the last year.

tougeagle · « **Reply #25 on:** February 15, 2011, 07:54:31 PM »

Quote from: greythorn3 on February 15, 2011, 06:19:10 AM

if they were produced today they would be crap! computer assembled chinese garbage. i could almost guarentee it..

speaking of sx4's i see alllot of crossovers nowadays that think they are a new thing.. the sx4 was the original! and allot more ground clearance compared to todays crossovers.

If amc was truly brought back, it would be made i America, with non-obsolete features like fuel injection... Most crossovers these days are car-based.

shanebo · « **Reply #26 on:** February 16, 2011, 12:48:43 AM »

I think AMC would have benefitted greatly if they would have jumped on the fuel-injection band wagon in the mid 80's ...That whole Renault thing didn't go over very well either. Come to think of it I havent seen a renault in forever.

ammachine390 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 16, 2011, 01:10:05 AM »

Its strange how AMC was one of the first, if not the first company to experiment with EFI in 1957, yet ended up never offering it on any cars, even when it was becoming mainstream in the 80's.

greythorn3 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 16, 2011, 07:27:44 AM »

Quote from: ammachine390 on February 16, 2011, 01:10:05 AM

Its strange how AMC was one of the first, if not the first company to experiment with EFI in 1957, yet ended up never offering it on any cars, even when it was becoming mainstream in the 80's.

thats because they didnt want to make cars that would leave americans stranded! a carb is allot simpler to make work in a emergency situation..

amc78concord · « **Reply #29 on:** February 16, 2011, 11:25:07 AM »

Quote from: shanebo on February 16, 2011, 12:48:43 AM

Come to think of it I havent seen a renault in forever.

Believe it or not, there is one '87 Renault Alliance Convertable that I always see around my town. It's usually parked at a local repair shop, but it's pretty beat-up looking. But very restorable by what I can see... But they are still out there

shanebo · « **Reply #30 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:20:53 PM »

Thats very true...I like EFI but I really know nothing about it...Id have alot better chance to get my old one barrel working again in a bind than I would a fuel injected system.

tougeagle · « **Reply #31 on:** February 18, 2011, 02:12:30 AM »

Quote from: greythorn3 on February 16, 2011, 07:27:44 AM

Quote from: ammachine390 on February 16, 2011, 01:10:05 AM
Its strange how AMC was one of the first, if not the first company to experiment with EFI in 1957, yet ended up never offering it on any cars, even when it was becoming mainstream in the 80's.

thats because they didnt want to make cars that would leave americans stranded! a carb is allot simpler to make work in a emergency situation..

I have way too many personal accounts and stories of quite the opposite. The carbs on these things are the main reason people stop trying to work on them. Carbs are in the past, and are obsolete technology for a reason. They are found on nothing other than small yard equipment engines. Everyone thinks fuel injection is complicated and convoluted, but really it's no more complicated than your stereo. It's actually simpler.

tougeagle · « **Reply #32 on:** February 18, 2011, 02:14:38 AM »

Quote from: shanebo on February 16, 2011, 09:20:53 PM

Thats very true...I like EFI but I really know nothing about it...Id have alot better chance to get my old one barrel working again in a bind than I would a fuel injected system.

Fuel injection is much easier to diagnose, as there is a specific set of parts in each subsystem, and it's extremely easy to diagnose using process of elimination, vs a carb.. "well, it could be idle speed, it could be jets, it could be mixture adjustment, it could be a bad gasket, it could be a sticking float..."
Simple tools with EFI eliminate the "could be"s down to "it is"

ammachine390 · « **Reply #33 on:** February 18, 2011, 07:24:13 PM »

It is true that in 1957 EFI was to complicated and could strand Americans. Thats probably why AMC decided not to offer it. Chrysler than used the same system in 1958, and most (if not all) were converted back to carbs because the system was completely unreliable. Only 1 car is still known to exist with the F.I. system (it too was converted from F.I. to a carb in the 50s). However, cars were not that reliable than either. Points could break at any possible moment leaving you stranded if you didn't know how to replace them, or didn't have any with you.

Quote from: tougeagle on February 18, 2011, 02:14:38 AM

Fuel injection is much easier to diagnose, as there is a specific set of parts in each subsystem, and it's extremely easy to diagnose using process of elimination, vs a carb.. "well, it could be idle speed, it could be jets, it could be mixture adjustment, it could be a bad gasket, it could be a sticking float..."
Simple tools with EFI eliminate the "could be"s down to "it is"

I agree completely.

shanebo · « **Reply #34 on:** February 19, 2011, 02:06:14 AM »

As much as I like living in my carberated safety zone Id defiantly love to put the EFI on mine eventually one day... Ive seen Tougeagle's bird and its no joke. Theres no way a carberated Eagle could ever keep up with it...Heck my buddies 99 Cummins Dodge was struggling to keep up with it!!

tougeagle · « **Reply #35 on:** February 22, 2011, 01:16:00 AM »

If you ever travel I-70 to the tunnel eastbound from Silverthorn you'll be very grateful you did, if/when you do.... it's capable of pulling 75 up that steep grade to the summit at 12k feet, but carbed I'd be loping along at half the speed limit, 35 mph all the way up...horsepower makes a HUGE difference on that section of highway, because by the time you're at the top, you've lost nearly 35% of what you had at sea level. that was a HUGE reason for my conversion, since my waggy is also my skimobile.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #36 on:** February 22, 2011, 03:01:11 PM »

I'd have no problem dumping my carb for EFI, but doesn't that mean you gotta change the computer? and changing the computer, you have to change (or mod) the sending unit/tank because it won't 'jive' with the new computer?

Then you have to alter/swap your instruments, because the newer computer won't jive with those either?

I mean if it's as easy as converting the engine, and then swapping out a computer, and then that's it, and you don't have to alter most of the electronics, then I'd be game to do it asap.

What all is needed to convert the 258 (besides the head/intake) for it to run EFI?

tougeagle · « **Reply #37 on:** February 22, 2011, 08:23:18 PM »

Quote from: Whuntmore on February 22, 2011, 03:01:11 PM

I'd have no problem dumping my carb for EFI, but doesn't that mean you gotta change the computer? and changing the computer, you have to change (or mod) the sending unit/tank because it won't 'jive' with the new computer?

Then you have to alter/swap your instruments, because the newer computer won't jive with those either?

I mean if it's as easy as converting the engine, and then swapping out a computer, and then that's it, and you don't have to alter most of the electronics, then I'd be game to do it asap.

What all is needed to convert the 258 (besides the head/intake) for it to run EFI?

Check out the writeup in the projects section, 4.0 head/efi/cam swap complete, or somethign along those lines. You absolutely have to remove the entire stock engine wire harness and computer. There are no problems with using stock sending unit or stock instrumentation, the computer is a two wire hookup, one wire to your former coil wire, the other to a fuel pump and the last to the positive side of your battery. Don't forget the cam if you do an EFI swap, and lemme know if you have any questions, but again, read the writeup first

Whuntmore · « **Reply #38 on:** February 22, 2011, 10:48:27 PM »

I've read several write-ups, and I'm probably on info-overload.

Thanks tougeagle, when I do this conversion, I just might need your help.

tougeagle · « **Reply #39 on:** February 23, 2011, 01:28:50 AM »

Quote from: Whuntmore on February 22, 2011, 10:48:27 PM

I've read several write-ups, and I'm probably on info-overload.

Thanks tougeagle, when I do this conversion, I just might need your help.

No worries