Diesel SD33T NV4500 SX4

[rollguy]

Forgot to add http://wagoneers.com/FSJ/rigs/1986-CJ10A/0_best-of-CJ-10A.html

CJ10A turned road worthy. Now the turbo version of the drivetrain is going into a Honcho

It is nice to see that John is a Greaser!

[mr.mindless]

Interesting collection of info. Looking into swapping I'm shocked you hadn't come across the Cummins options.  They're "real" diesels though, even the 4BT is heavier than a 258.

Before I had my Cummins Dodge I had a TDI VW and absolutely fell in love with the ALH motor.  They are stock 90hp/155tq but can reliable make 180/300 without TOO much work (tune, injectors, turbo) and can be adapted to Toyota transmissions.  I'd love to do a TDI/Toy swap into an Eagle. I have a clean WJ Grand Cherokee (3900# stock) shell that might get to be the test bed for that swap if I ever get the motivation and parts together. The Grand is a bit heavier than the Eagle (3500#), but MkIV Jettas are no lightweight at 2900#, and perform quite pleasantly with minimal mods.

PS - you couldn't pay me to swap a 6.2/6.5 GM oilburner into anything but a smelting furnace...

[captspillane]

Its true that the 4BT and 6BT are vastly superior to the 6.2L. I still like the 6.2L because of its military use. It is tough even if it's pathetic. There isn't as many of them as there are Cummins engines, but there will still always be parts available. There is enough of the Nissan SD33 engines out there that there will be parts for them forever too, but they will be mostly overseas and much more expensive eventually.

The way I figure the 6.2L has a third the performance but it cost me a quarter of the price of a 4BT and it will take a tenth of the effort to install. That seems worthwhile to me. I can use SBC conversion mounts, radiators, flywheels, and Iron Duke bellhousing with it reportedly. It is as close to bolt in as any swap can be. I still have a 6.2L sitting in my garage to install in my CJ8 Scrambler with the NV3550 five speed it already has. Its a good match for what I want to use the CJ8 for.

I'm back in contact with the owner of the 6BT Terra. Its very similar to what I was going to make with my Scout, except that he put too much of a body lift on it for my tastes. I'll buy it if we can agree on the price and if I can lower it back down to stock height in the future. The body spacers may have been necessary for clearence. I'll look at it in person this week.

If I do buy the 6BT Scout Terra then I will take my daily driver Scout off the road and begin this conversion. The only progress I've made recently is taking measurements off my spare SD33T. I think I can make my own custom adaptor to install an AMC T5 behind it. I recently purchased a nailhead TH400 from a 1973 Jeep truck and that AMC adaptor is the same concept I think I can make for the SD33T. Considering the final cost of a converted NV4500, I am willing to pay a machine shop to make the center piece where the T5 pilot bearing will go. A T5 would fit this engine perfectly.

[captspillane]

If you had the SD33 to Mopar big block adapter ring, you should be able to run any Mopar big block trans bell to a trans. I have the SAE 3 (I think) Mopar big block bell in my collection o stuff.

My research on the Binder Planet forum says that no such bell exists. I think its because the International V8s are SAE 3, which must be what you're thinking about. The SD33T is SAE 4. That is a subtle difference but an important one. A gas International TF727 transmission will not bolt up.

SAE 4 is really intended for generators, forklifts, and water pumps. Nissan put the SD33 non turbo version in a great many forklifts and industrial settings, so it made sense to use SAE 4. There is no other known automotive application that uses that standard.

[carnuck]

So much for not existing.

[captspillane]

That looks like its a Nissan to SAE4 adaptor from an SD33. It isn't anything special. Notice where the starter attaches to it. An adaptor to install any other transmission GM or otherwise still doesn't exist. Here is some photos of the SD33 system of adaptors to the special International only T19 four speed.

[eaglefreek]

Does Phoenix Casting have anything that will help you? http://www.phxgrp.com/saeadapters.htm

[carnuck]

The SD33T and SD33 were also attached to a Mopar big block 727 in IHs. The adapter I have is for Mopar big block to SAE3 or 4 pattern trans. My 5 ton '71 Loadstar 1800 has a 345 with the similar round adapter to the Rockwell 5 speed as your diesel has.

[captspillane]

Your adaptor is from a CJ10a right? That would be SAE4 to Mopar big block. The gas IH engines were SAE3 but there is nothing compatible between SAE4 or SAE3. The TF727 in the CJ10a towpigs and some IH Scouts had mopar big block pattern transmission bellhousings bolted to the back of the adaptor. Conceptually it should be possible to adapt any manual transmission from behind a mopar big block to fit behind the SD33 but that's not something I want to undertake. I have never seen any evidence of someone successfully doing that.

The adaptor ring is one part of the story. What flexplate does the CJ10a's use? Is there a torque converter snub adaptor? What pilot bearing would be used with a big block manual trans and is it even possible to mount a big block clutch or adapt the hole to accept the pilot bearing? Is the crank the correct spacing from the face of the bellhousing? Where do I even find such a bellhousing and clutch components and at what inflated cost? Is there an overdriven 5 speed available? As near as I can tell all the older big block Mopars had 3 or 4 speed transmissions with only a crazy four speed that had its third gear replaced with an overdrive and a wierd shifter that shifted 1-2-4-3. What starter to use and will it clear the adaptor ring? Will it engage the flywheel properly? Would I need to machine a Mopar flywheel to mount to the SD33 crank or drill a SD33 flywheel to accept a mopar clutch? According to the Scout guys who have gone before me there is no easy solution that makes a running roadworthy vehicle.

In my opinion a T5 is perfectly matched to a SD33 because of the humble power and torque it puts out. Any transmission behind a mopar big block will be a big fat stumbling pig in comparison. I have all the AMC stuff in stock and figured out in terms of pilot bushings and such. I have an abundance of AMC equipment to make measurements from and tons of old flexwheels and clutch assemblies. I have the hydraulic clutch parts already figured out. If the pilot hole is too small I can quickly switch to the AX15 needle bearing without the adaptor ring and then upgrade to an AX15, which I also have in stock. In this case the SD33 is being installed in an Eagle, so thats one more reason AMC hardware is more appropriate and sensible.

[captspillane]

Does Phoenix Casting have anything that will help you? http://www.phxgrp.com/saeadapters.htm

Yes they advertise an adaptor that goes from SAE3 to SAE4. This could let me install the International TF727 I already have behind the SD33, if I beat my head against a wall long enough to figure out the flexplate, converter snub, and the custom adaptor length needed. At the end of all that I would have to pray the starter bolts up without interference and at the right spot to engage the flywheel. I can only imagine what the adaptor would cost, especially when the spacing must be custom. It would be much more expensive than the CJ10a I almost bought a year ago. 

I could, but I won't.

This Eagle will have either a T5 with a one off machined adaptor or a NV4500 with IH North's special input shaft.

The T5 route will cost about 300 dollars worth of transmission and clutch components I already own plus the cost of the custom adaptor. If I use a CNC machine to make a totally custom part it will likely cost between 200 and 500 dollars. That's a grand total of less than $800 for the T5 installation, some of which I have already spent.

If I go the NV4500 route I will have a less desireable end product but the ease of off-the-shelf construction. Everything I need is a click away if I wanted it done this week and if I had a big enough credit card. The trans itself will cost $1000 dollars plus the $500 IH North kit. Then I'll still have to source a new clutch, flywheell, and find a second bellhousing since my second engine didn't come with one. That will likely demand the purchase of a parts Scout in the range of $400 to $900 dollars. The NV4500 route is extremely expensive, leaving alot of motivation and budget available to adapt a T5. When you consider all the accessory parts between the end of the crankshaft and the input of the transfer case, I do not think I can put together a roadworthy NV4500 for less than $2200.

[carnuck]

Your adaptor is from a CJ10a right? That would be SAE4 to Mopar big block.

Nope. Gas Mopar big block to SAE3 which bolted up to a Clark 5 speed. (out of '75 Dodge 5 ton) I'm thinking SD33T to Clark with O/D (I'm about to part out a '71 IH Loadstar 1800 tiltbed with 345/Clark 5 speed because 5 mpg doesn't cut it anymore)

The gas IH engines were SAE3 but there is nothing compatible between SAE4 or SAE3. The TF727 in the CJ10a towpigs and some IH Scouts had mopar big block pattern transmission bellhousings bolted to the back of the adaptor. Conceptually it should be possible to adapt any manual transmission from behind a mopar big block to fit behind the SD33 but that's not something I want to undertake. I have never seen any evidence of someone successfully doing that.

The adaptor ring is one part of the story. What flexplate does the CJ10a's use? Is there a torque converter snub adaptor? What pilot bearing would be used with a big block manual trans and is it even possible to mount a big block clutch or adapt the hole to accept the pilot bearing? Is the crank the correct spacing from the face of the bellhousing? Where do I even find such a bellhousing and clutch components and at what inflated cost? Is there an overdriven 5 speed available? As near as I can tell all the older big block Mopars had 3 or 4 speed transmissions with only a crazy four speed that had its third gear replaced with an overdrive and a wierd shifter that shifted 1-2-4-3. What starter to use and will it clear the adaptor ring? Will it engage the flywheel properly? Would I need to machine a Mopar flywheel to mount to the SD33 crank or drill a SD33 flywheel to accept a mopar clutch? According to the Scout guys who have gone before me there is no easy solution that makes a running roadworthy vehicle.

In my opinion a T5 is perfectly matched to a SD33 because of the humble power and torque it puts out. Any transmission behind a mopar big block will be a big fat stumbling pig in comparison. I have all the AMC stuff in stock and figured out in terms of pilot bushings and such. I have an abundance of AMC equipment to make measurements from and tons of old flexwheels and clutch assemblies. I have the hydraulic clutch parts already figured out. If the pilot hole is too small I can quickly switch to the AX15 needle bearing without the adaptor ring and then upgrade to an AX15, which I also have in stock. In this case the SD33 is being installed in an Eagle, so thats one more reason AMC hardware is more appropriate and sensible.

Size is definitely an issue with the Clark. It weighs almost as much as the SD33 block (I can barely lift one up into place by hand anymore)

[carnuck]

Does Phoenix Casting have anything that will help you? http://www.phxgrp.com/saeadapters.htm

Yes they advertise an adaptor that goes from SAE3 to SAE4. This could let me install the International TF727 I already have behind the SD33, if I beat my head against a wall long enough to figure out the flexplate, converter snub, and the custom adaptor length needed. At the end of all that I would have to pray the starter bolts up without interference and at the right spot to engage the flywheel. I can only imagine what the adaptor would cost, especially when the spacing must be custom. It would be much more expensive than the CJ10a I almost bought a year ago. 

I could, but I won't.

This Eagle will have either a T5 with a one off machined adaptor or a NV4500 with IH North's special input shaft.

The T5 route will cost about 300 dollars worth of transmission and clutch components I already own plus the cost of the custom adaptor. If I use a CNC machine to make a totally custom part it will likely cost between 200 and 500 dollars. That's a grand total of less than $800 for the T5 installation, some of which I have already spent.

If I go the NV4500 route I will have a less desireable end product but the ease of off-the-shelf construction. Everything I need is a click away if I wanted it done this week and if I had a big enough credit card. The trans itself will cost $1000 dollars plus the $500 IH North kit. Then I'll still have to source a new clutch, flywheell, and find a second bellhousing since my second engine didn't come with one. That will likely demand the purchase of a parts Scout in the range of $400 to $900 dollars. The NV4500 route is extremely expensive, leaving alot of motivation and budget available to adapt a T5. When you consider all the accessory parts between the end of the crankshaft and the input of the transfer case, I do not think I can put together a roadworthy NV4500 for less than $2200.

Another option is the IH T19 with Ranger gear splitter overdrive between the bell and trans, but they are about $2000 when all done ($1300 for the basic unit)

[captspillane]

The Ranger splitter would work perfectly in the sense that I already have a complete T19 and clutch configuration as found in a stock diesel Scout. It would not work as is, however, because the input shaft of the Scout T19 would be too long and the input shaft of the Ranger splitter would be too short. I would have to call them and find out if the two input shafts can be swapped for each other. Its plausible. If so that would be worth the $1300 to me, since I would benefit greatly from "inbetween" gears. It would also still be much cheaper than an NV4500 prepped to install.

I still don't understand how you are going to install the Clark transmission behind the SD33. A SAE3 adaptor will not bolt up to the SD33. SAE4 and SAE3 are not at all the same. The only SAE4 to Mopar big block adaptor I know of that exists is the one found in CJ10a towpigs. After you have that, what pilot bearing, flywheel, and clutch assembly are you using? The starter attaches to the Towpig adaptor ring, so it will need the original SD33 flywheel to have the notches to engage with if you use the Scout  starter. If you use a Dodge starter and flywheel, how will they mate with the SD33 and is the depth correct? Will the adaptor ring leave enough room for the Dodge starter?