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  • December 03, 2021, 05:00:28 PM

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Author Topic: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?  (Read 463 times)

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Offline Canoe

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Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« on: October 17, 2021, 07:44:10 PM »
As there have been improvements in lubricants since Eagles were originally made, what's the current Best Practices.
And since we're doing light 4x4 and maybe getting wetter than normal, should be a grease that isn't disturbed by water nor absorbs water.

For spiders and drive-shafts, what's the best grease to use?
Should the oil they come packaged with be removed before greasing?


(P.S., and since I'm greasing, for ball joints?)

Offline maddog

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2021, 09:37:35 PM »
For all the parts that have grease zerts I use either Lucas oil red and tacky which has a drop point of 540* and also has anti-seize in it or the Valvoline equivalent. As for the spiders since they're in the diff I use Valvoline durablend synthetic blend 80W-90 diff fluid. And yes I also use the red and tacky on my drive shaft u-joints.
I use the same things on my S10 as well which I drive like I stole it and it seems to hold up fairly. And the mechanic at work said he also uses it in our machines that we use and they get very hot very quickly and it seems to hold up quite well with them as well.
1998 CHEVY S10 (DAILY DRIVER/PROJECT) INTIMIDATIN'
1980 AMC EAGLE WAGON (PROJECT) EAGLE EYES
http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=30758.0
1983 AMC EAGLE LIMITED WAGON-SURVIVOR (gone)
http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=32372.0

Offline Canoe

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2021, 02:27:17 PM »
Red & Tacky sounds like an interesting product. Thanks!

Google decided I needed to see this. Wow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMmSQSjraSE&t=295s
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 03:00:04 PM by Canoe »

Offline Canoe

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2021, 04:19:13 PM »
Of course I had to google Red N Tacky.

People are reporting that while RnT is really great, it doesn't stand up to water very well. Others say it's doing fine as wheel bearing grease on their boat trailers, coming stock with that grease, never had a need to change.
Reports of RnT bleeding out of the grease gun over time in heat (some report short time, some report long time). Some are saying that bleed is a sign of a poor "oil separation spec", lose some of the oil, so it won't be there in the grease doing its job. Water wash out "< 6 %", oil separation "Max 6 %".

To get around those issues, most recommendations are for "Lucas HD Green", more properly Lucas Xtra Heavy Duty Grease. They say it doesn't bleed, lasts longer (good for "irregular maintaince"), and lasts longer when at higher temps. Drop point 500 vs RnT's 540. Recommended for "lubricant in steering systems, high-speed bearings, U-joints, and any other mechanical joint."
Water wash out max 10 %, oil separation max 5 %.

Water specs don't seem to match their reputations.


Another one that turns up in recomendations over RnT is Mystik JT-6 High Temp #2 (lithium-complex grease). Smooth, adhesive.
Good for shock loads. "High Timken OK Load. ... Approved for: Dana Corporation, Spicer Universal/Joint Division."
Drop point: #1 500, #2 550.
Water wash out: #1 9.4 %, #2 2.5 %.
Oil seperation: #1 2 %, #2 1 %.
"JT-6 Hi-Temp No. 1 developed for applications where service conditions dictate a grease of softer consistency."

Interesting that RnT gets recommended over Xtra HD for "slip yokes". I can't tell if this is true or people are just parroting what they've seen around the web.

One caution is to NOT mix Lucas red with Lucas green; red is a lithium complex grease, green is polyurea grease. Switching between them requires a clean out first. Where the factory grease is lithium, you can use the red without thoroughly cleaning. Pain in an application where you don't know what was used...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2021, 05:58:11 PM by Canoe »

Online AMC of Houston

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2021, 08:54:14 PM »
I use good old Swepco 101 in my CV's, U-joints, ball joints, etc.
George G.
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2021, 04:55:46 PM »
To avoid having to clean anything out completely, I want to stick with a Lithium Complex grease. One that is NLGI #2 GC-LB.

Reading the various specs, I've discovered how many are great for cold temperatures. Only those temperatures where I am are a very warm day in winter. Technically, I should be getting a grease rated down to -35 C (-31 F). Why do the local stores here sell greases that are only rated down to ~-5 F?

Mystik JT-6 Synthetic Blend Hi-Temp No.2 is rated for -33 C.
Valvoline Full Synthetic Moly-fortified No. 2, amazon says is -60°F Valvoline says is -40 F. (poor washout - apparently the moly is soluable too, not MOS2)

Plus the frustration of which greases that are actually available. Instead of researching to find the grease I want, I have to find out what greases are available, then get their specs. Nope. On to another one.

And some specs won't tell you what the Oil Separation is. Or the cold minimum. Or the Water Washout. Or ____.   

Some are available from Amazon, but for $28. Same product from a local store, if they have it, $4. None within 3 hours have it.

My lower ball joints always seem to rust away. Hard-to-find/$ to replace.
Found this
"CAT chassis greases are available in full syn varieties to cover different (high and low) temp ranges and are calcium sulphonate based, much better for water resistance, water washout and corrosion resistance than any lithium complex based grease and contain 5% MOS2 for high load/low speed situations, as well as being suitable for high speed use."

Offline Canoe

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2021, 05:26:50 PM »
May have a winner - if I can find it...

https://www.redlineoil.com/cv-2-grease
Calcium sulphonate based - compatible with Lithium Complex grease. But spec sheet says
"Although Red Line CV-2 is compatible with small amounts of many petroleum-based greases, it is always good lubrication practice to thoroughly clean out the old grease to eliminate abrasive particles and to minimize the possibility of grease incompatibility."

Spec Sheet is a blurb, not a table of specifications...
Specs at their site under OEM Compatibility.

Load Wear Index 71.1
PROPERTY CV-2 GREASE
NLGI Grade #2
NLGI Service GC-LB
Thickener Non-Soap
Fluid Type Thermally-stable synthetic
Useful Temperature Range -100°F to 500°F
Color Red
Dropping Point, >800°F
Load Wear Index 71.2
4-Ball Wear Scar Diameter (Red), 40 Kg 0.46 mm
Water Washout @ 105°F 1%
Evaporation Loss, 22 hrs @ 350°F 4%
Oil Separation, 30 hrs @ 350°F 5%
Oxidation Stability, 500 hrs @210°F, ∆psi 1.75 (12 kPa)
Rust Test, ASTM D1743 Pass

Recommended by a guy who uses it for his Defender. Got tired of prior greases getting washed out with river and creek crossings.

Outperforms the best conventional or synthetic greases and lubes
Withstands extreme temperature and pressure in wheel bearings, U-joints and high-angle CV Joints
Excellent high-temp stability, extreme-pressure protection and water resistance
Used in a variety of applications with operating temps from -100°F to 500°F
Strong resistance to oxidation and corrosion, low evaporation and oil separation with a minimum effect on rubber seals
Contains an organic moly (red moly) for chassis lubrication and high temp/high speed industrial equipment
Synthetic fluidity allows increases in bearing life up to 200%
Will darken after high-temp use-not detrimental to performance



Online AMC of Houston

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 02:07:11 AM »
I have a few tubs of that!  Use it in my wheel bearings.  Can't remember where I bought it tho - been a while - mail ordered 4 tubs from somewhere.
George G.
'81 Eagle Sundancer
'85 Eagle Waggie
1960 1902 Rambler Replica
'64 American
'70 AMX (Big Bad Blue), '70 AMX (White)
'77 Gremlin
'78 Pacer Coupe, '78 Pacer Wagon
'79 Pacer Wagon
'73 Jensen Interceptor
'86 Audi 5000 Turbo
'98 Aston Martin DB7
'09 Nissan Titan
'10 Nissan Maxima

Offline Canoe

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2021, 01:26:43 PM »
In reading through the various grease specs, most have a surprisingly limited Ambient Range and Operating Range for temperature. To get coverage on the low limit, you lose on the upper limit. For most N.A. environments it works, except for the low limit with most greases. Some typical limits:
  • If you need down to -40 F, the upper ambient is ~95F, operating limit ~300 F.
  • If lower is -30 F, the upper ambient is ~104 F, operating limit ~300 F.
  • If lower is -22 F, the upper ambient is ~120 F, operating limit is still ~300 F.
However, with the rise in the daily highs we're seeing around North America, there's a problem. If you get a grease that is rated to do the job properly in the cold temperatures, you can easily be facing high temperatures that are above the limit of your grease. There are many places where the cold season daily lows are regularly below -30 F, but the warm season highs were often over 100 F & approached 105 F, and now there are periods over 100 F and highs are sometimes even over 110 F.

If you're just putting around in your car, likely O.K.?
If you're driving it so you're putting a load on it, O.K.?
If it's heavy equipment or industrial, where there are high peak or continuous loads, it's looking like to avoid premature equipment wear and failure, they're going to need to go to a wider range grease (is such possible for those loads?), or regrease for cold vs. hot seasons.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2021, 01:39:04 PM by Canoe »

Offline Illeagle1984

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2021, 09:31:07 PM »
Our shop used only Lubriplate 1200-2 for many many years.  Heavy duty lithium grease with high shear strength and zero washout, rated -10 to 300F.  We put it on lots of boat trailers, various big-ish trucks (Topkicks and F650s) and the occasional 2wd van or pickup.  I can't remember ever seeing a bearing come back that was sitting in the Lubriplate.  I suppose the boat trailers weren't used in the dead of winter, but I wouldn't be too concerned with the lower temp limits.  Once you drive around a bit and use the brakes, the bearing will warm up and the grease will reflow.

Once that drum of grease ran out though, and the boss saw the price of a new one, we tried out some other greases with varying success.  The worst ones by far were the offerings from Lucas.  Medium-duty truck bearings failed immediately and repeatedly with the red, we ended up throwing the rest away.  The blue marine stuff held up to water for the locals but long trips would sling the grease out and burn up the bearings.  Somehow customers are angrier when they're 500 miles away.  Finally we settled on a knock-off white lith grease with similar specs to the original and went back to zero problems ~ 2 years ago.

Just telling you what I've seen day-to-day in the trenches.  :)
It's getting crowded down here:
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Offline Canoe

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Re: Spiders, driveshafts: modern Best Practices, grease?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2021, 04:23:20 PM »
... Just telling you what I've seen day-to-day in the trenches.  :)
Which is exactly what is appreciated. Numbers are just unverified numbers, without real-world results. It's surprising all the stories of things trashed while using various products, like Lucas products.

We have occasional dips to -40 C, even -45 C, when I drive as little as an hour north with elevation. Once at -30 C and below, the temperature determines how far one needs to drive (as in how many miles) before the frozen tires get pounded out of "square tire" into round and warm enough to start doing a normal in/out formation of the contact patch. Various fluids are so cold they behave like grease or even molasses. For example, auto shifting is slow (and noisy). Standard shifting before the trans fluid warms up requires two hands on the stick to change gears; and if you can't muscle that stick for the shift fast enough, the vehicle slows down below the speed for the gear you're shifting into. And you're not driving anywhere near normal speed during this. Having various bearings subjected to use while generating the friction to warm up a -10 F grease, just leaves me thinking 'this is wrong!' I find myself sitting here shaking my head just thinking about it.

(With my old BJ-40 TLC, if there were cold nights (string <25 C or a single <30 C) and I hadn't started it every day, even if it was parked out of the wind, I'd have to drain the engine oil (using an electric coil BBQ starter to get the oil to flow out of the oil pan drain) into plastic containers and place them in a tub of hot water. Once at room temperature, I could pour the oil back into the top of the engine and that would warm the engine up enough that with the glow plugs, it would reluctantly start. PITA. Good job it was such fun to drive.)

 

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