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Author Topic: Time for a new ignition system?  (Read 3344 times)

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Online mudkicker715

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2016, 08:06:33 PM »
Most times it is the wrong number one. Meaning the dissy is 180* off. I have been there done that a couple of times.



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Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2016, 09:06:19 PM »
I installed the new distributor with the rotor pointing in exactly the same position as the one I removed, with the timing mark was at TDC; this is what I've always done.  Although I doubt the distributor is 180 degrees off (because it wouldn't have started at all), tomorrow I'll screw a cylinder compression gauge into the #1 cylinder and turn the engine over from the crankshaft to confirm that the distributor is set to #1 at the top of the compression stroke.

I'm not a professional mechanic, but I've been working on engines for over 50 years.  I've always considered myself to be above average when it comes to figuring out and fixing things.  However, no car has ever given me as much difficulty as this Eagle... it definitely has my number!
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline EagleJoe93

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2016, 04:44:06 PM »
So it turns out that the distributor WAS 180 degrees off.  That was easily corrected but a new problem has arisen.  We have gotten the car running; however, it will stay running when the ignition is shut off.  The relay we installed is wired exactly as it should be.  We're using a yellow wire we found that appears to be switched; it has 12.9 volts with the ignition on and zero when the ignition is off.  However, when we start the engine and turn the key off, there's still 5.9 - 6.0 volts in this yellow wire going to the relay coil, and this is enough to keep the relay energized.  The battery warning like also comes on when the ignition is turned off (it's not on when the ignition is on).  It appears that this yellow wire isn't the correct wire to use.  Can anyone suggest a switched wire we could use?  One option would be to install a resistor before the relay to decrease the switching voltage enough for the coil to de-energize when the ignition is turned off, but we'd prefer a simpler solution.  We are really scratching our heads on this one.  Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon Limited. Work in progress. Most likely have the only one in town. :)

Offline johnbendik

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2016, 07:41:00 PM »
Hey guys,

One source of 'ignition on' power is the diagnostic connector (18-pin socket with a yellow rubber cover on the firewall, passenger side).  The bottom row, second from left pin has full battery voltage anytime the ignition is hot.

I used mine to power the evil yellow eyes on my Eagle hood ornament... http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=44158.msg343676#msg343676

JB
1984 Eagle Sportwagon
258 - 6 cyl
5-speed !

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2016, 08:00:03 PM »
Thank you.  We'll give it a try and report back.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Online mudkicker715

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2016, 08:43:05 PM »
Sounds right from what i remember on the power on imine idid msd ignition with that wire IIRC. Also these motors for whatever reason like to be 180* off with a dissy swap or drop in. They like to play that game. I have been there done that multiple times.



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Offline amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2016, 12:06:53 AM »
hi, I ran my wire directly to the ign on post at the starter solenoid. good luck, gz

Offline EagleJoe93

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 10:46:51 AM »
We were working at it again last light, and we found a yellow wire in the suggested plug that could work. We found out that, at least on my plug, the wire is a 12 gauge wire, so we can run that wire directly to the distributor and bypass the relay altogether. We tested it and it did have 12 volts running through it. First attempt was through the relay and we still had the same problem of the engine not shutting off. The second time we ran the wire directly to the distributor, and it wouldn't start. Tested the wire again and there was no longer any current. So I suspect we blew a fuse somewhere. Anyone knows which fuse on the fuse panel it is? Is there something else we are missing or have been missing? The books aren't clear on this.

Another issue that we noticed last night was sometimes when we would start the engine, it would rev up to 3500RPM and either drop down to normal levels or just die completely. This happened twice.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 10:48:55 AM by EagleJoe93 »
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon Limited. Work in progress. Most likely have the only one in town. :)

Offline amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 12:52:55 PM »
hi, y'all may be slightly overthinking this. try just running the dist power wire directly to the ign terminal on the starter solenoid, the switched one. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 12:25:48 AM »
So, we're finally back on the road, although there's still more work to be done.  We cleaned the existing ground and added an additional ground from the alternator case to the distributor clamp bolt.  We also cleaned all of the terminals on the starter solenoid.  We're still getting residual voltage through the relay that's preventing it from opening when the ignition is turned off, so we ran a wire into the car and installed a switch in the low voltage side of the relay so Joe can turn the engine off.  The reason we're going through this trouble with the relay is because DUI specifies a 12 gauge wire to supply adequate current to the distributor.  DUI also stresses the need for a good ground, which is why we added another ground to the distributor clamp.  We did try running the yellow wires that had been suggested straight to the distributor, and everything works fine, i.e., the engine starts and stops as it should, but I don't want to void the warranty on a $300.00 distributor by not installing it as specified.  AMCfool1, I don't see how connecting the distributor power supply to the starter relay can work; this relay is only energized when the engine is being started.  I did check voltages on this, and there's only a starter-on voltage, but not an ignition-on voltage.

For what it's worth, both the starter and alternator have been replaced within the last year.  We  have a new starter solenoid on hand and were going to replace it, but the original solenoid has a single terminal on the back that the new one doesn't have.  Starter solenoids like this are pretty generic (it looks just like the one on my riding mower), so I've never seen a terminal like this.  Anyone know what it's for?

We only drove the car up and down the block, but I thought it sounded quite a bit better than it has in a long time.  At least it's drivable again.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 09:52:53 AM »
hi, glad you got it going! there are two starter solenoids. manual and auto cars. the manual grounds through the body, the auto one has that extra terminal. it goes to the neutral safety switch. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2016, 06:54:14 PM »
We finally got the distributor wired correctly and working as it should.  What I learned (really shoulda known better) was to not try to check voltages though rusty bolts.  When I was checking for the switched 12 source on the starter solenoid, as more than one of you suggested, I was holding one of the probe leads on the rusty low amperage bolts on this 30 year-old part.  I scraped it a bit and thought I had a connection, but really didn't.  I didn't think there would be an ignition-on voltage here, but more learning has taken place.  The Eagle starts right up and idles smoothly; I think it now starts better than it ever has.

There are still some major carburetor issues, though.  The initial problem that got us working on the car was very hard starting, and the always-present flat-spot when accelerating was worsening.  The distributor solved the poor starting.  We had installed one of Gronk's Motorcraft 2150 carburetors in 2012.  I checked the float level, which was a little more than the specified 7/16".  I finally ended up with a dry float level of 3/8"; it seemed to run best at this level.  The wet level was a little more than 1/2" (I believe it's also supposed to be 7/16"), but once warmed up, it ran a little better, but otherwise it's really stumbling badly.  The accelerator pumps are both giving healthy squirts of fuel.  I think I'll pick up a rebuild kit and carefully go though it.  Can anyone suggest which rebuild kit I should get?  There are dozens of them for these carbs.  I sent Gronk an email asking his advice, but no response yet.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2016, 10:45:37 PM »
hi, stumbling upon acceleration usually means a transition problem. ie from idle to power circuit. check your power valve. Not to knock gronk, but the stuff he sold in 012 to the the stuff he sells now, is a different world. some of his carbs had bad castings, and needed to be cleaned out, not really his fault, but, there it is. also, your jets may be too big. I don't know what rebuild kit to use for a gronk carb, myself, I stick with the original motorcraft/autolite carbs, made here, and made well, good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2016, 11:53:53 PM »
Thanks, gz.  I agree with your assessment regarding the transition between the low and high speed circuits.  I hadn't heard about any issues with the earlier carbs from Gronk, so if there were, that only reinforces the need to rebuild this one.  During the initial setup of this carburetor, we felt the main jets were too large, and we installed (if I recall), 48's.  The difficulty I'm having with purchasing a rebuild kit is that they're selected by what vehicle it's installed in.  If anyone knows what vehicle I should order this for, or better yet, an actual part number, that would be most helpful.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2016, 09:53:28 AM »
try mikes carburetor  (www.carburetor-parts.com), I don't think he will have a kit specifically for the gronk carb, but he has all sorts of jets and individual parts. good luck gz

 

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