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Author Topic: Time for a new ignition system?  (Read 3054 times)

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Offline OverKnight

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Time for a new ignition system?
« on: September 18, 2016, 11:54:55 AM »
EagleJoe93's Dad here; on his 1986 Eagle, we have installed something of a hybrid ignition system.  We've installed the oversize Ford distributor cap and adapter, with a Ford TFI coil and a GM HEI ignition control module.  We've been cleaning and installing new grounds and replacing marginal connectors, but I am questioning how well the coil and ICM are working once everything is warmed up.  Yesterday we found a little too much play in the distributor shaft, so since we need to replace the distributor, coil and ICM, maybe it's time to upgrade the entire system.  Is there any consensus on which is the best ignition system for this car?  The common upgrades are the full Ford DuraSpark HEI or the full GM HEI.  Is one of these more  reliable, better-performing and easier to install than the other?  I've seen distributors on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/AMC-JEEP-INLINE-6-232-258-6-CYLINDER-HEI-DISTRIBUTOR-BLACK-Spark-Plug-Wires/201493319064?_trksid=p2050601.c100574.m4253&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37338%26meid%3Dc8d1cde5a75348e3b37206b50c7fa4ca%26pid%3D100574%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D201493319064 for $120 with the GM-style coil-in-cap; the wires are US-made, but there's no comment on the origin of the distributor itself.  Maybe I've heard too many stories of poorly-engineered products like these from eBay, but I'm leery of these distributors; does anyone have any experience or opinions with these?  Any other suggestions?

Thank you.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2016, 01:00:56 PM »
hi, what you are considering is the GM HEI conversion. This is a good and viable upgrade.  BUT... there is always a but!... you have an 86, so you have to understand what you are dealing with. On 84+ Eagles, the factory computer controls BOTH the carburetor AND the distributor, so if you take out the factory distributor, you have to "neutralize" the carb. Look up the "ECM Test bypass" here. Basically you have to center the stepper motor pins on the carb, then disconnect the stepper motor. (the thing sticking out from the back of the carb). I just rebuilt the factory system on my 84, not easy, but doable. New, (rebuilt) computers are still available from RockAuto or your local Advance, etc., about $120. Computer is behind pass side kick panel, btw.
If you want to go the HEI route, I recommend the DUI (Davis Unified Ignition) They are the only ones that properly curve the distributor for you. They are more expensive, about $300, but definetely worth it, unless you know how to curve your own distributor. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2016, 07:29:17 PM »
Thanks, amcfool1.  I should have mentioned that we've replaced the Carter with a Motorcraft 2150 (from Gronk), so this isn't an issue.  I've heard of the DUI systems, but until now have never had a need to look at them more closely.  After a quick look, I'm impressed; the ICM is contained inside the distributor, so this is one more thing we could eliminate.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 07:34:40 PM by OverKnight »
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline vangremlin

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2016, 08:00:45 PM »
I went with one of these all in one distributors from CRT.  I've had it a couple years now and have had no problems with it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351652972776?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
1981 Kammback 258 - "Pepe"
1980 Coupe 258 - "Ginger
1972 Gremlin X 304
1978 Gremlin 4 cyl 121 - sold
1964 TBird 390 - sold

Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2016, 09:28:36 PM »
hey, Mr. Vangremlin, you got lucky. and good for you. the "cheaper" HEIs are a crapshoot. Some are good, and some are not. You got a good one. They are made in a very large asian country, and their quality control is spotty, at best. DUIs are built right here in the USA, and their price reflects that. Also, if you have a question or a problem, you can call them up, and a real live person will answer, and try to help. They are in Memphis, TN. So, you pay your money, and make your choice. It's ALL good! I ran one of the First DUI distributors, bought back in 99, when they were first coming out with the AMC 258 part. Thing ran for over 16 years. After initial installation, and fine tuning, I NEVER TOUCHED IT AGAIN! 16 years. ..and..after Eagle #1 died, (due to rust, not any mechanical issues), I pulled the DUI dist. out, and sent it back to them, for a "freshening". they rebuilt the whole thing, cleaned, lubed, new cap, etc, for about $90., so it's good to go on my next motor. So, yes, it is more money than the Ebay "cheapies", but, IMO, it is money well spent. You DO (sometimes) get what you pay for. And , no, I do not work for them. Just a good quality product. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2016, 11:07:27 PM »
My concerns about the eBay HEI distributors are, who makes them?  How good are the materials?  How well are they made, i.e., quality control and assurance?  They may have a three-year warranty, but has anyone needed to use it, and if so, were they satisfied?  I'm not automatically against everything made in China, but if it's a critical component and I have no way to at least inspect if by hand, I usually steer clear.  In some regards, China is catching up, but I think it'll be another 15-20 years before I feel confidence in their products.

The DUI system is pricey, but clearly a great option.  Although they're top-shelf, their wires are also very expensive.  I could purchase a rebuilt GM HEI distributor, gear, coil, cap, rotor and wires for maybe 1/2 of the price of the DUI system, but I'd have a system with possibly a lesser-quality distributor and a sub-optimal advance curve.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2016, 11:35:03 PM »
you don't absolutely need their ( DUI) wires, they are nice, but probably overkill. I use an ACCEL set for a 91  4.0, no problems. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 12:23:04 AM »
Yeah, that was my thought, also.  The Accel wires are about $30.00 less than the DUI wires; there are plenty of areas on this car where the $30.00 could be put to better use.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline vangremlin

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 10:02:04 AM »
hey, Mr. Vangremlin, you got lucky. and good for you. the "cheaper" HEIs are a crapshoot. Some are good, and some are not. You got a good one. They are made in a very large asian country, and their quality control is spotty, at best. DUIs are built right here in the USA, and their price reflects that. Also, if you have a question or a problem, you can call them up, and a real live person will answer, and try to help. They are in Memphis, TN. So, you pay your money, and make your choice. It's ALL good! I ran one of the First DUI distributors, bought back in 99, when they were first coming out with the AMC 258 part. Thing ran for over 16 years. After initial installation, and fine tuning, I NEVER TOUCHED IT AGAIN! 16 years. ..and..after Eagle #1 died, (due to rust, not any mechanical issues), I pulled the DUI dist. out, and sent it back to them, for a "freshening". they rebuilt the whole thing, cleaned, lubed, new cap, etc, for about $90., so it's good to go on my next motor. So, yes, it is more money than the Ebay "cheapies", but, IMO, it is money well spent. You DO (sometimes) get what you pay for. And , no, I do not work for them. Just a good quality product. good luck, gz

Hey Mr. amcfool1, here is a link to the CRT performance website

http://www.crtperformance.com/crt/

On it you'll find there find their phone number

508-783-0004

Please feel free to give them a call and ask them anything you want.  They are located in Massachusetts, right here in the USA.  Read the jeep forums and you'll find many favorable reviews on their products.
1981 Kammback 258 - "Pepe"
1980 Coupe 258 - "Ginger
1972 Gremlin X 304
1978 Gremlin 4 cyl 121 - sold
1964 TBird 390 - sold

Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 11:04:39 AM »
thanks man, I did not know they were a US company. Don't need one now, but will keep in mind for future. glad yours is doing well. i have heard way too many bad stories about the Skip Whites, and others, and even bought a "knock off" myself a couple of years ago, from 4WDR Hdwr, and never could get that thing right. thanks again, and good luck, gz

Offline vangremlin

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 02:10:15 PM »
You're welcome!  I know that the DUI system is top notch and probably the best you can get, but just wanted to make sure people know what their options are. 
1981 Kammback 258 - "Pepe"
1980 Coupe 258 - "Ginger
1972 Gremlin X 304
1978 Gremlin 4 cyl 121 - sold
1964 TBird 390 - sold

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2016, 09:57:28 PM »
We decided to bite the bullet and go for the DUI system.  However, Performance Distributors was charging over $30 for shipping(!); sorry, that's just obscene.  This made me shop around, and I found that I could get the AMC DUI distributor from Summit Racing with free shipping.  We added a set of Taylor wires; both should be here tomorrow.  Although not stock color, Joe chose the blue cap and wires, because he plans on painting the engine the original AMC blue used on earlier engines.
Stay tuned...
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2016, 10:37:52 PM »
hi, and good for you, and good luck. As for pricing, this is not just DUI, most of the time time it is cheaper to go through a large distributor (sic) like Summit, they buy in bulk, and can usually sell for cheaper than the original manufacturer. again good luck, gz

Offline vangremlin

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2016, 12:17:13 PM »
Keep us posted on the results of the swap!
1981 Kammback 258 - "Pepe"
1980 Coupe 258 - "Ginger
1972 Gremlin X 304
1978 Gremlin 4 cyl 121 - sold
1964 TBird 390 - sold

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2016, 06:18:17 PM »
Not very smooth sailing today...

Pulled the old distributor and the new one slid right in.  DUI recommends a 12-gauge wire to the distributor, but all of the switched wires were maybe 16 gauge, so we installed a relay to provide sufficient current.  When I make wires with crimp-on terminals, I use the uninsulated terminals, crimp them onto the wire, solder the crimped connection and then put heat-shrink tubing over the crimped/soldered connection, so I know these connections are as good as can be.  New Autolite Platinum spark were gapped to 0.050 (DUI recommends 0.055) and installed.  The wires weren't very easy to install; we had to bend the dipstick and it's mounting bracket slightly, and it would have been easier if a few of the wires were a little longer.  However, after switching them around, we figured out which was the best wire for each cylinder.  When we tried starting the engine, it (of course) sounded like the timing was off, and I tried turning the distributor to get it closer, to no avail.  A timing light confirmed there is a spark.  After a few attempts, it would no longer start.  We rechecked everything again.  The battery voltage is reading 12.86 volts, the distributor is definitely in the correct position, each plug wire is going to the correct cylinder and are all definitely connected...

Right now I'm stumped.  This is not the first distributor I've replaced; this is definitely not rocket science.  Sometimes one needs to step away and maybe sleep on it, so we quit for the day.  I'm betting it's something stunningly simple, so we'll give it a fresh look tomorrow.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2016, 08:06:33 PM »
Most times it is the wrong number one. Meaning the dissy is 180* off. I have been there done that a couple of times.



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Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2016, 09:06:19 PM »
I installed the new distributor with the rotor pointing in exactly the same position as the one I removed, with the timing mark was at TDC; this is what I've always done.  Although I doubt the distributor is 180 degrees off (because it wouldn't have started at all), tomorrow I'll screw a cylinder compression gauge into the #1 cylinder and turn the engine over from the crankshaft to confirm that the distributor is set to #1 at the top of the compression stroke.

I'm not a professional mechanic, but I've been working on engines for over 50 years.  I've always considered myself to be above average when it comes to figuring out and fixing things.  However, no car has ever given me as much difficulty as this Eagle... it definitely has my number!
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline EagleJoe93

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2016, 04:44:06 PM »
So it turns out that the distributor WAS 180 degrees off.  That was easily corrected but a new problem has arisen.  We have gotten the car running; however, it will stay running when the ignition is shut off.  The relay we installed is wired exactly as it should be.  We're using a yellow wire we found that appears to be switched; it has 12.9 volts with the ignition on and zero when the ignition is off.  However, when we start the engine and turn the key off, there's still 5.9 - 6.0 volts in this yellow wire going to the relay coil, and this is enough to keep the relay energized.  The battery warning like also comes on when the ignition is turned off (it's not on when the ignition is on).  It appears that this yellow wire isn't the correct wire to use.  Can anyone suggest a switched wire we could use?  One option would be to install a resistor before the relay to decrease the switching voltage enough for the coil to de-energize when the ignition is turned off, but we'd prefer a simpler solution.  We are really scratching our heads on this one.  Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon Limited. Work in progress. Most likely have the only one in town. :)

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2016, 07:41:00 PM »
Hey guys,

One source of 'ignition on' power is the diagnostic connector (18-pin socket with a yellow rubber cover on the firewall, passenger side).  The bottom row, second from left pin has full battery voltage anytime the ignition is hot.

I used mine to power the evil yellow eyes on my Eagle hood ornament... http://forums.amceaglesden.com/index.php?topic=44158.msg343676#msg343676

JB
1984 Eagle Sportwagon
258 - 6 cyl
5-speed !

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2016, 08:00:03 PM »
Thank you.  We'll give it a try and report back.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2016, 08:43:05 PM »
Sounds right from what i remember on the power on imine idid msd ignition with that wire IIRC. Also these motors for whatever reason like to be 180* off with a dissy swap or drop in. They like to play that game. I have been there done that multiple times.



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Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2016, 12:06:53 AM »
hi, I ran my wire directly to the ign on post at the starter solenoid. good luck, gz

Offline EagleJoe93

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2016, 10:46:51 AM »
We were working at it again last light, and we found a yellow wire in the suggested plug that could work. We found out that, at least on my plug, the wire is a 12 gauge wire, so we can run that wire directly to the distributor and bypass the relay altogether. We tested it and it did have 12 volts running through it. First attempt was through the relay and we still had the same problem of the engine not shutting off. The second time we ran the wire directly to the distributor, and it wouldn't start. Tested the wire again and there was no longer any current. So I suspect we blew a fuse somewhere. Anyone knows which fuse on the fuse panel it is? Is there something else we are missing or have been missing? The books aren't clear on this.

Another issue that we noticed last night was sometimes when we would start the engine, it would rev up to 3500RPM and either drop down to normal levels or just die completely. This happened twice.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 10:48:55 AM by EagleJoe93 »
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon Limited. Work in progress. Most likely have the only one in town. :)

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2016, 12:52:55 PM »
hi, y'all may be slightly overthinking this. try just running the dist power wire directly to the ign terminal on the starter solenoid, the switched one. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2016, 12:25:48 AM »
So, we're finally back on the road, although there's still more work to be done.  We cleaned the existing ground and added an additional ground from the alternator case to the distributor clamp bolt.  We also cleaned all of the terminals on the starter solenoid.  We're still getting residual voltage through the relay that's preventing it from opening when the ignition is turned off, so we ran a wire into the car and installed a switch in the low voltage side of the relay so Joe can turn the engine off.  The reason we're going through this trouble with the relay is because DUI specifies a 12 gauge wire to supply adequate current to the distributor.  DUI also stresses the need for a good ground, which is why we added another ground to the distributor clamp.  We did try running the yellow wires that had been suggested straight to the distributor, and everything works fine, i.e., the engine starts and stops as it should, but I don't want to void the warranty on a $300.00 distributor by not installing it as specified.  AMCfool1, I don't see how connecting the distributor power supply to the starter relay can work; this relay is only energized when the engine is being started.  I did check voltages on this, and there's only a starter-on voltage, but not an ignition-on voltage.

For what it's worth, both the starter and alternator have been replaced within the last year.  We  have a new starter solenoid on hand and were going to replace it, but the original solenoid has a single terminal on the back that the new one doesn't have.  Starter solenoids like this are pretty generic (it looks just like the one on my riding mower), so I've never seen a terminal like this.  Anyone know what it's for?

We only drove the car up and down the block, but I thought it sounded quite a bit better than it has in a long time.  At least it's drivable again.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2016, 09:52:53 AM »
hi, glad you got it going! there are two starter solenoids. manual and auto cars. the manual grounds through the body, the auto one has that extra terminal. it goes to the neutral safety switch. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2016, 06:54:14 PM »
We finally got the distributor wired correctly and working as it should.  What I learned (really shoulda known better) was to not try to check voltages though rusty bolts.  When I was checking for the switched 12 source on the starter solenoid, as more than one of you suggested, I was holding one of the probe leads on the rusty low amperage bolts on this 30 year-old part.  I scraped it a bit and thought I had a connection, but really didn't.  I didn't think there would be an ignition-on voltage here, but more learning has taken place.  The Eagle starts right up and idles smoothly; I think it now starts better than it ever has.

There are still some major carburetor issues, though.  The initial problem that got us working on the car was very hard starting, and the always-present flat-spot when accelerating was worsening.  The distributor solved the poor starting.  We had installed one of Gronk's Motorcraft 2150 carburetors in 2012.  I checked the float level, which was a little more than the specified 7/16".  I finally ended up with a dry float level of 3/8"; it seemed to run best at this level.  The wet level was a little more than 1/2" (I believe it's also supposed to be 7/16"), but once warmed up, it ran a little better, but otherwise it's really stumbling badly.  The accelerator pumps are both giving healthy squirts of fuel.  I think I'll pick up a rebuild kit and carefully go though it.  Can anyone suggest which rebuild kit I should get?  There are dozens of them for these carbs.  I sent Gronk an email asking his advice, but no response yet.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2016, 10:45:37 PM »
hi, stumbling upon acceleration usually means a transition problem. ie from idle to power circuit. check your power valve. Not to knock gronk, but the stuff he sold in 012 to the the stuff he sells now, is a different world. some of his carbs had bad castings, and needed to be cleaned out, not really his fault, but, there it is. also, your jets may be too big. I don't know what rebuild kit to use for a gronk carb, myself, I stick with the original motorcraft/autolite carbs, made here, and made well, good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2016, 11:53:53 PM »
Thanks, gz.  I agree with your assessment regarding the transition between the low and high speed circuits.  I hadn't heard about any issues with the earlier carbs from Gronk, so if there were, that only reinforces the need to rebuild this one.  During the initial setup of this carburetor, we felt the main jets were too large, and we installed (if I recall), 48's.  The difficulty I'm having with purchasing a rebuild kit is that they're selected by what vehicle it's installed in.  If anyone knows what vehicle I should order this for, or better yet, an actual part number, that would be most helpful.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2016, 09:53:28 AM »
try mikes carburetor  (www.carburetor-parts.com), I don't think he will have a kit specifically for the gronk carb, but he has all sorts of jets and individual parts. good luck gz

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2016, 11:52:59 PM »
hi, just as a bit of encouragement, Aren't Eagles FUN! they will fight you every step of the way, they are the MOST difficult cars I have EVER worked on, but, man, when you get 'em right, they are pure Rock & Roll! I have, along with my Eagle, a 77 Hornet AMX, a 78 Concord AMX, and a 79 Spirit, the Eagle is EXPONENTIALLY harder to work on, but, in a way, the most rewarding. My last eagle, an 82 Sedan, was the one I had the DUI/2150 motor, also, an 80 block, with 82 head, Crower cam, et, etc. and.. i built this thing for my wife! (it WAS a Limited, leather seats. A/C, power seats, etc), she liked it, and drove it every day for 10 years, then,when it wasn't  pretty anymore, i took it over, and drove it for another 11 years. 21 years, this thing got one of us to work and back, EVERY SINGLE DAY. It'a parts car now, died in 015, going to work one day, the left rear wheel fell off, axle snapped, I literally drove the wheels off that car!
Anyway, I just finished a 3 year restification of an 84 Eagle Sedan, Eagle #2, the "Phoenix". this time, I was going to challenge myself. (Wife no longer interested in driving 30+ year old cars) So, I decided to bring it back to stock, as in stock 84 engine controls, the computer, the feedback BBD, the knock sensor, the TVS, the whole nine yards! And, you know what? It was a major PITA, but...not impossible. I did it. took me over a year, hunting down these obscure sensors, or worse, the information on what they do, etc, but you know, the 84+ Eagles use 8 sensors to tell the computer what to tell the carb, and dist, and of those 8, 6, yes, SIX, are still available new, at your local auto parts store, IF you know what to ask for. Even the Stepper Motor is available as a rebuild! As is the computer!
The point here is not to get you to go back to stock, just to let you know it is available. The point is, over the last 2/3 years, I got a heck of an education, and a new appreciation of AMCs last gasp at survival, the 84-88 Eagles. The final, 84-88 engine management system, from AMC, is actually quite impressive. They JUST didn't take to the next level.
Anyway, this was the beginning of engine computer control, and in 84+ 258s. the computer really did control everything. Those 8 sensors, sent info to the computer, Including, the distributor, which acted as another sensor, then, the computer sent a spark, NOT the distributor. In essence, that old school distributor was acting like a modern "crank trigger", while at the same time the computer was sending signal to the stepper motor on the carb, to maintain a good A/F ratio. Pretty cool, eh? It worked flawlessly, as long as all sensors are alive and kickin'. Not so much, once people start pulling stuff off without knowing what they are doing.
Anyway, enough from me, just a story from America, good luck, y'all, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2016, 10:01:05 PM »
Thanks for the encouragement, gz, I could use it at this point.  Not to be boastful, but I can fix almost anything... except this car.  I'm sure we'll get it running well again, but it's taking far more time than it should.  I tip my hat to your accomplishment of returning an Eagle engine to stock condition; I wish I had the time and patience.  Joe would like to keep this car as stock as possible, but we've already replaced the distributor, carburetor and valve cover with non-stock parts.  Since this car is his daily transportation, reliability is very important, so I'd like to take the rest of the unused wires out; it just adds to the confusion, and could possibly be creating additional problems.  He's kept everything we've already removed, so we can add these to the pile.

I sent a second email to Gronk, but no response yet.  We did a partial disassembly of the carburetor yesterday.  Nothing really appeared to be amiss, but I'd like to get a complete rebuild kit, completely disassemble it, give everything a good soak in carburetor cleaner and then reassemble, carefully checking everything.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2016, 10:35:33 PM »
"Not to knock gronk, but the stuff he sold in 012 to the the stuff he sells now, is a different world. some of his carbs had bad castings, and needed to be cleaned out, not really his fault, but, there it is."

This makes me wonder... this is the oldest-looking four year old carburetor I've ever seen.  The interior looks fine (even with the corrosive liquid sold as gas these days), but it's heavily corroded on the outside.  The original carburetor on my '57 Chevy looks better than this.  Perhaps the quality of the metal used in the castings aren't as good as they could be.  Also, someone reviewed Gronk's 2150 carburetor on the JeepForum.com, and pointed out that there were no markings on the carb.  The reviewer ultimately felt it was a genuine Motorcraft carburetor, but these both raise some concern about what we actually purchased in 2012.

I'd feel better about everything if Gronk responded, but nothing yet.  Maybe he'll respond to this thread at some point.  I don't mean to criticize Gronk; it's only been four days since I sent him a message via eBay (probably not the best way to reach him) and two days since I emailed him directly, so it's too early to get on him for not responding.  I'll drop him another email, and maybe give his cell a ring.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline hillbilly

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2016, 10:17:21 PM »
Gronk's carbs are Motorcraft 2150's and 2100's.

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2016, 12:28:16 AM »
I finally reached Gronk this week, by text.  He asked me to send him pictures of the carb, as there are hundred of variations.  I've read that the power valve diaphragm can be damaged from backfiring, which has happened when the ignition wasn't right, so I'm betting this is the main problem.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2016, 02:58:56 AM »
The carb is not going to show the so called hundred variationw.   But good luck anyway.



Manitowoc WI

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2016, 11:11:37 AM »
He wasn't specific about what views he wanted.  I can't believe how difficult it is to get the correct rebuild kit for this carb...
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2016, 12:18:39 PM »
hi, if the carb is from Gronk, you probably won't find a kit except maybe through him. Ceteris paribus, the Motorcrafts were very similar throughout the years. for example, the same kit is used for 77-81 AMC, p/n K4321, and for 81-92 Jeep, p/n K6070., this one may work for you. These are about $60. There is also a generic 2150 kit, p/n K450, for about $21.. This may be a good place to start. All part #s from Mike's Carburetors. (www.carburetor-parts.com)  He also sells individual parts, ie diaphrams, power valves, needles/seats, etc, so you can "build" your own kit. The Motorcraft is one of the easier carbs to rebuild, so, good luck!, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2016, 09:07:16 PM »
Thanks, amcfool1.  I wish I looked more closely at the carburetor when I last had it apart.  I don't even remember if it has a single or two stage power valve.  I'll look at it more closely and take some pictures tomorrow.  I'll also suggest to Gronk that he provide the part number for the rebuild kit with each carburetor he sells.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2016, 11:30:29 AM »
hi, so how is it going? get the thing together? let us know! good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2016, 08:37:12 PM »
Thanks for asking; both Joe and I have been quite busy and haven't been able to follow through on this.  The Eagle's still running poorly, with a lot of hesitation on acceleration.  After emailing Gronk with every address I had for him, I tried texting, to which he responded.  Since there have been many variations of this carburetor, he asked me to send him a few pictures.  I have a horrible old "dumb phone", i.e., not a smart phone, so I asked if I could email him the pictures.  He have me a work email to send them to.  We finally were able to take the pictures this past weekend, and I'll try to send them out tonight.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2016, 07:08:07 AM »
A late follow-up on this thread; we've sent Gronk multiple texts and emails.  After multiple emails, he responded to a text, and said there are dozens of variations of these carburetors, and to send him some pictures (as above), which were sent.  His response (after more requests from me for a response) was any kit would work, and then said, "You have a 2100, right?"  He said he could sell me a kit for $45.00.  Why did he ask for the pictures if his response wasn't gong to be specific, which was the entire reason I first contacted him?  I'd have no problem purchasing a kit from him, but I'd hoped for a more expedient way of getting this than having it shipped from him.  The many different kits cost anywhere from the low $20 range into the mid $60's.  I'm okay with spending a little more and having unneeded parts, but I do not want to buy a kit and find it has the wrong parts or is missing the correct parts.  All I want from him is either a NAPA or Motorcraft part number, or the make, year and model of a car that came equipped with this carburetor.

I'm quite disappointed in his after-sale support
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

Online amcfool1

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2016, 12:01:54 PM »
Hi, I would start with one of the cheaper kits, ie the K450, or local equivalent, and purchase a power valve separately. Chances are that this carb came on NO stock application. Again, the 2150s are a fairly basic carb, and I don't think there are "hundreds" of variations. There are perhaps more than a few variations, but not hundreds. These carbs were used on AMC 304 and 360s, and on a lot of the smaller Ford V8s. Try a kit for a 81-83 Jeep 304. I really don't think Gronks carbs are original Motorcraft/Autolite carbs, since these have not been produced in decades. I believe these are offshore castings, which is why he can sell them as "New" carbs. There is nothing inherently wrong with this, but, offshore QC can be spotty. He probably does not have kits because his line of carbs is simply not "old" enough yet to need too many rebuilds.
he has sold a lot of 'em though, so they must be pretty good overall. good luck, gz

Offline OverKnight

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Re: Time for a new ignition system?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2016, 11:10:50 PM »
Thanks, amcfool1, we'll try what you've suggested.  Since the majority of this thread is no longer about ignition systems, I'll probably restart this thread in the carburetor section.
"I shall pass through this world but once.  Any good I can do, or any kindness that I can show any human being, let me do it now and not defer it, for I shall not pass this way again."
- Stephen Grellet

 

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