Electrical issues - won't run

[vangremlin]

I was driving my Eagle on the busiest road around shortly after 1:00 today, and as I took off from a light, it died.  I coasted a couple hundred feet, and tried to start it again.  At first it turned over a few times, but then nothing but a click.  I thought first it was the ignition control module, I had that die on me in the past but have since added some additional ground wires.   I went ahead and swapped in the spare one I carry around.  Still nothing but a click, and by this time I noticed some smoke coming out of the engine compartment.  Popped open the hood and found the positive wire from the battery and the wire from the solenoid to the starter were smoking hot and melting the insulation on the wires.  Also noticed a little pool of molten something on the ground under the starter.  I didn't crank the starter for long periods, just 10 seconds or so before it stopped turning over.

Do you think I have one problem or two?  Seems like at this point the starter is definitely toast.  But once the car is running, I wouldn't think a bad starter would cause it to die - or am I wrong?  Did the ignition control module die, causing problems with the starter?  Or vice versa? Or are they two independent problems.  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

[vangremlin]

And one more question - if I switch to one of those all in one HEI distributors, I can do away with the ignition control module, correct?   That seems like the way to go rather than investing in another ignition control module.  Thoughts?

[IowaEagle]

yes with the HEI dizzy you get rid of all of that Motorcraft stuff.

[vangremlin]

I just checked the price on the ignition control modules at NAPA.  They are now $61, up from about $30 when I bought one less than a year ago.  HEI here I come lol!!

[IowaEagle]

Yup, they have priced them so it is silly for us to not go HEI. 

[Amc1320]

I bought one of the HEI units from skip white performance, it works great so far

On your problem though I would suspect the ignition selenoid maybe, if it died it lost power to the ignition somehow, also the hot starter wire could indicate a problem there as well. your starter might be fine it's just not getting juice, or you have a short

They are a common part and easy to replace

[Draekon]

I just checked the price on the ignition control modules at NAPA.  They are now $61, up from about $30 when I bought one less than a year ago.  HEI here I come lol!!

They are only 30-45 at Oreilly's.

[Baskinator]

Your starter solenoid most likely went bad and shorted somehow. Is it possible the starter got stuck in the extended position and the running engine fried it? I guess you won't know until you take it off, or try to start it.

The stock Duraspark ignition is supposed to be more reliable than the HEI. That said, old components are just that - old. The HEI is nice if you want to eliminate all that wiring and put it all in one place, plus the parts are much more plentiful.

There are some things you should know about the HEI. While it is pretty simple to set up - one 10 gauge red wire to 20 amp fuse, 12v key on - it will probably take a bit of troubleshooting to get the advance curve right. Also, you will need to decide which gear to use. The Skip White HEI comes with the correct gear, but it's hardened steel and could potentially eat the cam gear. I used an AMC V8 gear, but needed to space it with thrust washers to keep the shaft from riding up and down. I just have my fingers crossed that this will be fine in the long run, but it does the job.

[eaglefreek]

I also think it may be a faulty solenoid which may have fried your starter.

[carnuck]

sounds like maybe the starter stayed engaged or it threw off the snap ring on the shaft the time it went clunk and the rotating part hit the stationary part and shorted out.

[T5258]

possibly a grounded starter cable???  My buddy's Hornet did something very similar & it turned out that the cable running from the solenoid to the starter melted through on one of the exhaust manifolds....cooked the insulation & a solenoid in the process.....

[carnuck]

It could be the insulation around the stud on the starter melted off and shorted out.

[vangremlin]

Thanks everyone for the responses.  I haven't had a chance to work on it yet, I will this weekend.  Just a few comments based on the responses:

- When I started the car to leave home, I thought to myself something sounded a little different, but I woudn't be able to describe what was different now.
- I was sitting at a light, the light turned green, and I started to take off.  I started moving, and the car died with a last dying breath kind of thing ....Pluuuuuh. (Ignition control module died?  When it happened in the past though it was a very calm death, with the engine just kind of stopping with no real noise.  Could be because I kind of punched it hard because I hadn't noticed the light turned???)
- I coasted a couple hundred feet and stopped the car.
- I tried to restart it
- It seemed to turn over fine and sound like a normal car trying to start but you knew wasn't going to.  I probably tried to start it less than 10 seconds.
-  After a brief rest, I tried to start it again, and the starter was definitely going slower, and stopped completely after maybe 5 seconds. 
- I swapped in my spare Ignition control module, tried to restart, no response from the starter.  At this point I saw some smoke rolling out from under the hood, and went to check.  The insulation was getting soft and smoking on the cables from the battery to the solenoid, and from the solenoid to the battery.  I also noticed a small pool of molten stuff on the ground below the starter.
- I disconnected the battery, and let things cool off.  After 20 minutes or so, I reconnected the negative cable to the battery, nothing adverse happened.
- The flashers worked the entire 2 hours while I was waiting for the tow truck, so the battery seemed to be in good shape.
- I didn't hear any other strange noises, like the starter grinding against the flex plate, or the starter staying engaged after I got the car started.
- The starter and ignition control module are less than 6 months old. 

I'll start with the solenoid and the starter, and see how far I get.

Thanks again for all your comments!

[vangremlin]

I'm finally going to get a chance to work on Pepe today.  I'm going to plan on replacing the starter, the solenoid, and the ignition control module.  The starter and ICM are still under warranty, which should make this relatively cheap.  I'm really bad at paperwork, but was able to find the receipts for the starter and the ICM   

[IowaEagle]

Glad you found them.

[vangremlin]

Swapped out my starter and solenoid, plugged in my spare ICM (until the new replacement arrived at NAPA), and Pepe started right up!!  The starter was definitely dead, I hooked the jumper cables to it from the battery and nothing happened.  I couldn't see anything mechanically wrong with it. 

I took the old starter and ICM back to NAPA with my receipts, along with a master cylinder I had bought that turned out to be the wrong one.  So for a new starter, new ICM, and a new solenoid, they ended up paying me $25.  I like those economics!!!

[Prafeston]

Glad that's all straightened out! And it's always great to spend ZERO dollars!