Thinking of a solid front axel......

[Mechanic]

 

Alright guys, buckle up for a long technically laden post.

So, I'm planning on building a trail dedicated rig this summer, quite soon actually. I'm hopping to catch the tail end of the off road season up here. And I'm planning on building it out of an SX/4(no, not my 81 SX/4, I will hopefully be getting another one). Oh, and I'm doing this on a very tight budget for now, that could change if people by some of my vehicles, but for now. Keep things on the cheap.

So, my question to all you folk, in a very broad sense, is how should I build this? I've never built a trail rig before and I'm not all that gutsy when it comes to modification either. I can fabricate and install most anything, but I would need dimensions and where they go ect. I'm just not brave enough to rip it all down and then build it back up fabricating and modifying as needed.

Now, for a quick tool summary, so you guys know what I'm capable of before I move on.
-MIG welder with argon gas
-240 stick welder (not bad at welding either)
-OXY Eseteline torch (good with this to)
-all hand tools
-chop saw
-drill press
-a brand new lathe that we haven't put together or tried yet
-heated shop

Alright, now on to the technical questions.... I was originally planning on just doing a 2 inch lift, some 31" tires if they would fit, a Lincoln locked rear diff and a NP229 with the floor......... Adjusted for the speedo cable.

But now I'm thinking that the lift might not be sufficient, and the tire size not quite big enough for some of the trails around here, and I wouldn't dare put bigger than 31's on a slightly lifted eagle because of the half shafts and the weak 2 piece rear end.

So just the last day or so, I've been thinking solid Axel swap. There are a couple Grand Wagoneers in the Pick N Pull and on for sale for parts cheap on kijiji. And maybe if I could find it, an ford 8.8 if I could find the proper gear ratio.

Now, once I was thinking about the SAS swap, i began to wonder if it would be better to have leafs up front or coils. I've seen a SAS done up eagle once before and it was on coils (Mick's doing) and it was FANTASTICALY done!!! But, after looking at all of the things Mick had modified, I was kinda scared at the prospect of doing that myself. So I thought about leafs, but I know even less about this conversion then I do about the coil conversion.

So, first question, should I do the SAS swap?
Second question, assuming I DO the SAS swap, what Axles should I use front and rear and what are they out of?
Third, what gear ratio (has to be a STOCK gear ratio) should I be looking for?
Forth, should I Lincoln lock whatever I have out back or wait to buy an expensive locker?(trail dedicated, remember)
Fifth, what size tires should I run? I've been suggested 35's but tones of people run 33's.
Sixth, and this is the big one, Coils or leafs out front?

I'm really trying to aim this question at the Eagle lifting veterans (Mick, Rollguy) as if the answer is yes to the SAS swap, I would GREATLY appreciate some in-depth answeres, maybe suggesting some sites that give you measurements for things that need to be fabricated.

[mudkicker715]

My front steering.


Front driveshaft issue now corrected with a double cardan.

[IMG]http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc55/mudkicker715/Y29udGVudDovL21lZGlhL2V4dGVybmFsL2ltYWdlcy9tZWRpYS80NQ-1.jpg[/

IMG]

Still working on it. Just an idea of leaf sprung.

[Mechanic]

Oh right, i forgot you would have to fab up a crossmember cause your removing the Indipendent front suspension and removing the one engine mount.

You also have a high steer kit on it. How did you build that? And what diff did you use?

[mudkicker715]

Crappy stupid second picture try again


229
Its a v8 so it moved

Check jb4x4 website for the high steer.

[mudkicker715]

Bad memory 242 case sorry.

[Mechanic]

You have a different steering set up between you first and second pic right? Looks like you got both wheels connected in the first pic, and got a set up like a dodge truck in the second pic.

On another note, do you have a shot from the wheel well? I,m curious about that crossmember and shock mount.

[mudkicker715]

First pic of steering is current.



Crossmember moved forward ca. 4". Lopped off some of the eagle 6cyl xmember.

[eagledreamer]

Hey there,

The solid front axle is the way to go... I've been contemplating the same thing... I've got all the resources, a complete Grand Wagoneer drivetrain and a complete Cherokee drivetrain and a couple of cars to size things up on. I've thought about just the suspension lift too...

Sooo, I'm thinking the simplest of the three is the solid front axle using leafs... The reason is that you can raise the car up, drop the stock IFS, roll the new axle under with leafs attached and fab the new mounts. For the front use a 2" x 3" or 2"x 4" tube with the new spring mounts and mount the tube to the frame rails. This will give you your front spring mounts. Then locate the rear spring mounts allowing for spring flex. Then attach your steering arm. It's the simplest and probably the less technical to install. Look at some of the sites for converting IFS truck and see how it's done there.

On the other hand, If you want more articulation coil springs are the way to go... It's a lot more technical and requires more fabrication... Look at Mick's wagon he converted to see what you need to do...

I'm waiting for the weather to warm up to start my conversion(s). I've got two cars I want to get up in the air, an SX/4 and a Kammback. They're still predicting rain and snow here, Montana... :0(  Hopefully, we'll get our 2 days of summer and it'll come on a weekend this year... :0)

Mick is the man to talk to about both conversions.... He's installed both and can answer questions on both...

Good Luck 

       

[Mechanic]

That's the tentative conclusion I've come to as well, and yes, Mick is definitely the man. Although I don't think he has done a leaf spring set up yet. I'm hopping he will wade in here soon and give me some pointers on exactly what i might have to do. I've got an idea, but no clue on the specifics.

[eaglefreek]

That's the tentative conclusion I've come to as well, and yes, Mick is definitely the man. Although I don't think he has done a leaf spring set up yet. I'm hopping he will wade in here soon and give me some pointers on exactly what i might have to do. I've got an idea, but no clue on the specifics.

As far as I know Mick's original swap was leaf spring up front. There is nothing wrong with a leaf spring front suspension and will make it easier for someone who hasn't done a project of that magnitude.

[Whuntmore]

There were no grand wagoneers at PnP today.  I looked everywhere for ya.  I'm sure a few months ago Dean Pointed out a few that were there, but both are long gone now.

Maybe the online tally hasn't been updated. 

[rollguy]

If you can come to So.Cal, I will give you my front frame fixture (buried beneath parts):

Leafs are the easiest and cheapest (read Rambler mentality here).   The fixture will aid in making a front sub frame that looks like this:


When done, it should look like this:


The steering box needs to be mounted more solid than the stock brackets are (big tires will bend and break the stock mounts).  It should look like this:


If you use full size Cherokee/Wagoneer axles, try to find a narrow set (not wide track).   Though they are rare, you may be able to use the TC from the full size (242?) on your stock Eagle trans if it is a manual trans, or any other NON Quadratrack case.

Downsize Cherokee axles work as well, but I prefer the 44's from the full size.

[Mechanic]

As far as I know Mick's original swap was leaf spring up front. There is nothing wrong with a leaf spring front suspension and will make it easier for someone who hasn't done a project of that magnitude.

Ok, so it looks like leafs are the way to go then, and what was Mick's first project that he did a leaf spring mod?

There were no grand wagoneers at PnP today.  I looked everywhere for ya.  I'm sure a few months ago Dean Pointed out a few that were there, but both are long gone now.

Maybe the online tally hasn't been updated.  

That's alright dude, I really appreciate you looking. Stupid online tally thingy is never accurate.  

And roll guy:

Why would i need a subframe fixture? probably a stupid question but I'm curious. Why wouldn't you just weld shakle mounts to the existing unibody? Is it a strength thing or that it's just not a good idea welding to the unibody?

Both the sub frame picture and the steering box is fuzzy, but i think I'm making out an engine crossmember. Were does that bolt to?

And the steering box, is the steering box not already bolted to the frame? It's been a while since I've under an eagle but I seem to recall it being throughly bolted through the frame. Is that not strong enough?

Oh, wait a minuet. That subframe thing there...... It just bolts/welds up to approximately where the, I Duno what their called technically, but the brace bracket on the frame. Then it's strait and bolts back up to the front below the bumpers. Negating the frame arch around the wheel wells. Is that what it does? That's not a bad idea...... Still a bit involved, you have to tell me why that's needed rather than just welding to the unibody.

And then the steering, you don't have a high steer it looks like, how did you get the extremely long pitman arm? Lol thats a very clean set up though, i really like that.

And Axels. Your saying that the axels front and rear out of a Grand Cherokee would be to wide? Or are you saying some are to wide? Would I be better off getting one from an older wagoneer or even a cherokee?

And unforchunatly a 48 hour drive each way is a bit much for me lol, I've got a better idea though. How bout you come up here for the western canada eagle meet!! lol there is even wheeling to be done.

[rollguy]

And roll guy:

Why would i need a subframe fixture? probably a stupid question but I'm curious. Why wouldn't you just weld shakle mounts to the existing unibody? Is it a strength thing or that it's just not a good idea welding to the unibody?

Both the sub frame picture and the steering box is fuzzy, but i think I'm making out an engine crossmember. Were does that bolt to?

And the steering box, is the steering box not already bolted to the frame? It's been a while since I've under an eagle but I seem to recall it being throughly bolted through the frame. Is that not strong enough?

Oh, wait a minuet. That subframe thing there...... It just bolts/welds up to approximately where the, I Duno what their called technically, but the brace bracket on the frame. Then it's strait and bolts back up to the front below the bumpers. Negating the frame arch around the wheel wells. Is that what it does? That's not a bad idea...... Still a bit involved, you have to tell me why that's needed rather than just welding to the unibody.

And then the steering, you don't have a high steer it looks like, how did you get the extremely long pitman arm? Lol thats a very clean set up though, i really like that.

And Axels. Your saying that the axels front and rear out of a Grand Cherokee would be to wide? Or are you saying some are to wide? Would I be better off getting one from an older wagoneer or even a cherokee?

And unforchunatly a 48 hour drive each way is a bit much for me lol, I've got a better idea though. How bout you come up here for the western canada eagle meet!! lol there is even wheeling to be done.

       It has been my experience that big tires + rough trails = bent and broken parts.  I know how these things go. You will get your Eagle built with a mild lift and smaller tires and find out you want to go on harder trails.  Then you will want/need lockers, bigger tires, heaver suspension etc. to keep up with the rest of the crowd.   I think it is best to build it as strong as possible, as cheaply as possible the first time. The stock steering box will eventually rip itself out of the frame without added brackets and strengthening.  Check out:  http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=18031.0
       Without a sub frame, the spring mounts will eventually rip out of the uni-body where they have been welded, especially if you have a frame with some rust/rot.  It is also a LOT easier to weld standing up working at table height rather than on your back welding upwards with molten metal and sparks falling on you.  I know Mick does not use a sub frame, but he mounts his 4 link suspension brackets to the heavy part of the uni-body frame.  Keep in mind that he (Mick) is a professional with LOTS of fabricating experience.  For us beginners, we need to do things the easiest and cheapest (there's that Rambler mentality again) way possible.  In the long run, I do think a sub frame is stronger than just welding to the existing uni-body. 
       As far as axles go, I used Scout axles.  However, they are harder to find than Cherokee/Wagoneer axles.   The wide track full size (Cherokees/Wagoneers with fender flares) axles would be toooooooo wide for an Eagle.  If you want to go with 44's, Cherokee/Wagoneer axles would be the cheapest and best.   If you don't mind Dana 20's & 30's, downsize Cherokee axles will work.   If you can make your front axle high steer, that would also be best.  I went with the stock steering knuckle (I cheaped out) and dropped pitman arm for a Jeep.   
      For the engine mount I did it 2 different ways.  The first one, I made a complete fabbed crossmember and engine mount.   The second one, I just cut off all the un-necessary parts from the stock crossmember and used it (somewhat like Mudkicker did on his). 

[Mechanic]

Alright, so what you have suggested would be preventative measures then to keep things from breaking down the line.

Luckily the car I'm using is mostly rust free so it should be fairly easy to weld to, but it sounds like i should build a subframe for the beast. How did you actualy build the subframe??? A few pictures there on your carnage thread i thought I saw a rear sub frame as well. Building an entire subframe fir the car night be a bit much. Most of the wheeling I'll be doing mud and softball size rocks and roots. There won't be any extreme wheeling like what you have done in the past.

True that on the welding virticle though i can't think of much else i hate more than welding on my back and leaning on a piece of slag.

So, the grand wagoneer and full size cherokee came with diferent widths of diffs? That don't make it easy to figure out what truck I need i might just go with the diffs out of an 80's Cherokee then. Then keep my eyes out for some bigger diffs.

And what would be the easiest engine mount/crossmember? Fabing up a new one, or modifying the old one?

[rollguy]

My SX4 has a full rectangular tube frame and the wagons had a front sub frame only.  The fixture is just an Eagle front section upside down.  Fabbing a sub frame is easy because you don't have to weld overhead.   Modifying the front crossmember would be the easiest.   The sub frame is a bolt on unit that is attached at the 2 front bumper mounts, 4 crossmember bolts, and 4 rear crossmember studs (these need to be replaced with longer ones.  Full size Cherokee/ Wagoneer axles come in 2 widths.  The wide track axles are the ones with fender flares, and are about 4" wider than the standard axles.   They are on "J" trucks as well, but most of them that I have seen are wide track with the fender flares. 

[Mechanic]

Ok, so the sub frame doesn't sound to bad, and once that's done the hardest job will be getting it bolted and welded on properly. Everything else should just bolt up and then i just have to worry about piñon angle and shock mounts. Were did you mount your shocks??

You woudn't be able to send me a PM with all the dimensions for the subframe and were you welded your shackles would you??..... Hold on though, you said it was just the front frame of an eagle upside-down? Unfortunately, i don't have acess to a parts car right now and the one front of an eagle I do have is for my smacked up 84. So either way, If it is at all possible , in any way, to take those measurements that would be beyond awesome.

[Whuntmore]

No, you have two front frames.  We took it off Ian's '84.  from the dog leg to the front.  It's sitting there with a motor, tranny and TC case still attached in your yard covered over with plastic.

Plan for a motor swap as #1 project.  Get the motor and tranny onto your SX/4.  I can come down for the TC case swap, and there ya have a cut, useable frame.

[Mechanic]

No no, the frame i have is for the smacked up 84 wagon. The engine and tranny is for the SX/4 and you have the T-case.

[Whuntmore]

Sorry, I forgot you're NOT using the wagon as your bushbuggy anymore.  Ahhh well, it was just a thought. 

For your Blue '84, Maybe you should consider having the frame straightened, or getting another donor car.   Last summer, we had that other blue one we used as parts, IDK why the heck we didn't use it for fixing up your '84....

[Mechanic]

Ran outa time i think.

But i am thinking about just building a new frame for the wagon. I would like to look at it a bit more before i decide the fate of that front frame.

[Whuntmore]

Ran outa time i think.

But i am thinking about just building a new frame for the wagon. I would like to look at it a bit more before i decide the fate of that front frame.

That's right, too many projects on the go (If I remember correctly, there was the truck, and visits from Kristen's two Eagles.), not enough time, and over-quota on the vehicles.

Well, you're getting it squared away now.  The Jeep is gone, the parts blue one is gone, Ian's is gone, my '86 is out of there, the grand am is gone (that's 5 less then last year), hopefully you'll be able to sell the Olds, and get rid of the RX-7. 

That should put you back to a manageable amount of projects.  You know that I'll help you, so that's two sets of hands...  And we always have Dean for Parts - Or Pick N Pull. 

Also, at our last meeting, there was a suggestion put into motion that once a month (whatever) all members would pile down to a selected member's place, and help with projects, garage, parts, how-to, technique, etc.

We are going to Rich's place first - I think June 11. 

You might consider coming to one of the next meetings coming up, and plea your need.   And your timeframe.  Since you only have the summer to really go at these, you might consider asking to be during the summer, and getting a date set.

You just might end up having over 15 guys show up who know AMC's, and are willing to help you.  You could get ALLOT done. 

[Mechanic]

That would be cool, i would just have to have some of my projects all lined up and ready to work on as well what i want to do and a list of parts...... Would be a lot of prep work but if I can muster the parts that would be awsome when is the next eagle meeting?

[Whuntmore]

It should be the 14th of June.  That's the second Tuesday of this month.

I think if you get 'elected' to receive help (and if you do, you might wanna thank Regan, Rory, and Duane for coming up with this idea), yah, really get it together for some big-time help.

We're talking about some of these guys who were driving AMC's before you (or even I) were born.  They have experience and skills we don't.  So ya, If you can you gotta come to this coming meeting, and maybe beg to be the next person, since you only have the summer free.

[rollguy]

Here is a photo of the shock mount.  I just made a piece that bolts into the holes that the upper control arm mounts to.
The top has a bolt welded in it so it is attached into the top shock mount.

[Mechanic]

Ohhh...... THAT'S handy!!! I like that. Doesn't look like an overly difficult thing to build either, or adjust when building to a specific hight and shock length.

Sooooooooooo............. Would you be willing for those specs?? I don't mean to be pushy, and i do have a front frame disconnected from a vehicle so if it's just to those dimensions that works to. I just don't want to takle this job with such little experience and nothing more to go off of other than "the axel goes.......... HERE!" lol

[rollguy]

If you have the front section of an Eagle already, you have the dimensions.  You could just fabricate the front sub frame with your Eagle up in the air with all the front suspension removed and the engine supported from above.  It could be done that way, but it would be very difficult.  The shock mounts can be made at any time without the need for any fixtures (of course the springs would need to be removed first).

[Mechanic]

Right, I'm planning on pulling the engine and tranny for this job. I'm thinking that if i build the subframe completely, I should be able to install the engine and tranny onto the sub frame and then lower the car onto the subframe. But that's looking a bit into the future. When do i stop with the measurements on the subframe? Do i go to the lower control arm brace on the frame? Or untill after it levels out under the car?(can't think of the technical term.)

[rollguy]

Right, I'm planning on pulling the engine and tranny for this job. I'm thinking that if i build the subframe completely, I should be able to install the engine and tranny onto the sub frame and then lower the car onto the subframe. But that's looking a bit into the future. When do i stop with the measurements on the subframe? Do i go to the lower control arm brace on the frame? Or untill after it levels out under the car?(can't think of the technical term.)

If you study the photo of the sub frame in post #11, you will see a flat plate on each side.   That plate sits right against the existing frame rail where the trans crossmember bolts. The studs need to be replaced with longer ones, and the plates sandwiched between the crossmember and the existing frame.   The rectangular tube is cut to follow the "dog leg" angle.  The top of that tube is even (horizontally) with the front part of the frame below where the bumper mount is.  The space between the top of that tube and the frame where the engine crossmember is bolted, allows enough room to start and tighten the bolts (actually one bolt, and one nut that looks like a lug nut).   You will need some kind of fixture, or the actual car in order to make the sub frame.  Every piece needs to be cut, fitted, and tacked before the final welding, which should be done while bolted on to keep everything in place.    It would be very difficult to make something like this from only measurements.   

[Mechanic]

Ok..... So your building the subframe to the same footprint as the existing front unibody. Just have her kinda tacked up and mocked up before you finish welding it. What about the slight "hump" to accommodate the axel in the original eagle frame?? I'm assuming looking very closely at the pictures it's just a strait sub frame. And then one it's mocked up and tacked together you weld it up solid, mock up leafs while it's still on the vehicle, and then take the frame off and weld on the spring purchases??

Sorry about all the really niggle technical questions.

[Mechanic]

Alright, things are going to start happening on this very quickly, possibly even this weekend so I thought I would get your guys opinion on some off road tires. I'm just going to copy and paste my posts from another forum here so you guys can see my options.

First post:
Alright, i went to rim2rim to do some snooping and got a couple of options.

First, the Dunlop Fierce Attitude M/T's. 5 for $1575 installed and out the door.

These are 315/75 R16

I also am looking at the Nitto Mud Grappler which can only be bought, as far as i'm aware, in the US. But, it's a 35" tall in 15" rim.

That's $2205 US shipped to my door for 5, not installed though(not a big issue, as I work at a shop and can get them put on for free.)

Still, the nitto's are significantly more expensive, although I haven't found out how much i would pay if i could pick them up in Montana.

I'm just trying to figure out what's what.......... The other thought is, if i could double up my off road summer tires on this car, as winter tires on the 4runner, it would justify the price a bit more.

But how big a tires can you fit on a 3rd gen 4runner with no lift?? Maybe even with a 2 inch lift?

Edit: as a little extra info, i found that the tires on my runner are 265's, so i'm assuming 285's would be as big as you can go even with a 2" lift(thinking about the OME kit for my runner as my struts are on there last legs.) i just did the conversion as well and 285 works out to be 32.5 inch. So 33's would be absolute biggest i guess??

Second post:
Ohhhh. Good site weezle, after i got it figured out.

This just suggested to me 4 more options.

The cepek Crusher.

I have personally installed a set of these on one of the guys at my shops trucks, and they look awesome. But i'm not sure how good they would be off road, they look more like a show tire to me

Anyway, lookin at $1375 for a set of 5 35" on 15" rims. Not bad, but not sure if i need to ship em or not.

The cepek mud and country

Not bad, $1255 for a set of 5, but again, not sure of shipping. Same size.

The BF Goodrich Mud-Terrain KM/2

$1055 for a set of 5

And the dunlop radial mud rover

$970 for a set of 5

All of these are 35" by 12.5 by 15 and i don't know if i need to ship any of them.

As an extra note, it'll cost me $700 for me to ship any of these to calgary.

Third post:
Sorry about the amount of posting by me here, I'm just bouncing ideas right now.

And speaking of ideas, here are a few more.

I'm thinking more and more it would be a good idea to double up the use of tires on this rig. Make them both my trial tires(for now) and my winter tires for my runner.

I also learned something interesting when I was talking to fountain tire. If you have any tire size other than the size the manufacturer suggests(in other words stock) they will not warentee the tire. You would have to go to the manufacturer of the tire to get warrantee and even then it's a long shot.

So on that subject. I got a quote for 5 Duratrac's size 265/75 R16 studded, with new valve stems for $1522.40 installed with all taxes. S if i were to just get the tires studded and not installed it would be $1377 ish for 5. So a full set including spare. For 4 studded it would be $1125.01

The thing about the Duratracs, is that. First you guys all like it. And second, once I'm done with them in the summer(And it would probably only be one summer as i'd try and pick up some cheap used mud or special tire over the winter) I could put them on my 4runner and run them as a winter tire. If needed i could even studd them after summer. Save me $150

But, they are only 30.5 inch tall tires. Not all that knobby looking either if I'm honest. Although i've heard these are one of the best all round tire you can get.

Edit: i also got a quote on 5 MT/R's 31X10.5R15 with kevlar for $1441.97 installed, taxed, and out the door. Just the wheels would cost me $1320 taxed.(these, if 16" rim would fit the 4runner as well right?? Not great for the ice though.....)

I guess one more question as well. Would i need a spare?? Or should I just buy 4?? If it's dedicated trail, i'd say 5 but otherwise??

[Mechanic]

Here are some pictures of the goodyear wrangler Duratracs


And the MT/R with Kevlar


My two favorites are the Dunlop attitudes(at the top) and the Duratracs(second from the bottom)

[Whuntmore]

Did you check that jeep shop Me, You, and Kristen went to, to get her winch?

[Mechanic]

No I havent. Probably another good place to check out.

[redneckjames]

i also lifetd my eagle and went with 33 km2s but i have a question about your crossmember and tranny mount...

how did you get the crossmember to clear the front drive shaft??? im stuck on this but once i get it my eagle will be ready. any help would be appreciated.

thanks

[mudkicker715]

I used a double cardone to get the right angle. To do that clearance thing. There are also offset ujoints that might do the same thing. Haven't ever used them. I heard they vibrate at speed. I know first hand they help your clearance issues however.