Author Topic: weird Starting problem (Solved, I hope...) (Read 15865 times)

Whuntmore · « **on:** January 20, 2011, 01:51:27 PM »

I hope one of you have an idea what this is...

Starting her up is a real bugger. Once she's running, starting her after a few hours ok, but if I leave her more then one day, it's next to impossible to get her started. She will turn over no problem, and she'll sputter a bit here and there, like every 3rd cycle over. it pretty much will run the battery down, then I have to boost it, to keep turning her over till she will finally catch and start running. then she's fine.

Fuel filter is new, new wires, new solenoid, new plugs, carb rebuilt.

outside temps don't seem to matter (yet, 'cause we've had cold weather so far) because once I have her started, I can leave her for a few to several hours, and she'll start again. But getting her to start that first time is a real PITA.

Even though I rebuilt the carb, I took it into a shop, and they set it up so she goes pretty good now. The choke on it doesn't have the screws to adjust it, they are rivets.

Anyone know what that is? Choke? Carb still not set up quite right?

Eagleearl · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2011, 03:52:01 PM »

Sounds like the gas is draining out or evaporating and you need to pump gas up to the carb before it will start. When it sits a while and you think it would have a problem pull the air cleaner cover off and pump the accelerator linkage while holding the choke open and watch to see if it is pumping a good stream of gas into the engine. If not the gas may be getting low in the float bowl.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2011, 04:36:58 PM »

ok, what would make the gas drain? a loose fitting? the carb plates not 'tight' enough? I put all new gaskets on her.

That's funny that you should say that, because when we first started her up, Pat poured gas straight into the carb, and she fired up. The last time I tried to start her, we did the same thing. That sounds like the issue now that I think of it.

So, instead of having a bottle of gas ready everytime I have to start her, what should I do to remedy this?

AMC of Houston · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2011, 05:48:35 PM »

I'd say either the fuel pump, or a crack in one of the rubber fuel hoses at the pump or at the gas tank (will just suck air if the hose(s) is/are cracked). Both are cheap fixes.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #4 on:** January 20, 2011, 06:47:33 PM »

would the fuel pump still work during those other times I described?

I mean even after it's been off for hours? Do any of you think I should take the carb off and tighten the plates a bit?

I'll go thru the hoses, and just replace them, I might just replace the pump also.

AMC of Houston · « **Reply #5 on:** January 20, 2011, 08:46:43 PM »

yeah. If the fuel pump is "weak", it won't pick up fuel until the engine actually starts and the RPM's are up enough to overcome the "weakness" of the pump. I've had 3 AMC cars lately with such an issue; and a new pump fixed them all. Also be sure the little nipple on the fuel filter is in the "12-oclock" position.

Good luck.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #6 on:** January 20, 2011, 09:08:21 PM »

I'll do that. Thx guys!

Whuntmore · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2011, 05:53:27 PM »

Ok, so I've replaced the fuel pump, and yup, you could smell the fuel in the oil. So we changed out the pump, and changed the oil. Seems to start much better now. I let it sit for about 4 days, then I tried to start it.

1st try, she caught on the 3rd time over. Not too bad.

I think the carb is still running a bit rich, but it still runs pretty decently. Thx everyone.

amc78concord · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2011, 10:38:23 PM »

Glad to hear you got it fixed. I was going to say it was the fuel pump as well... One time I ran my Eagle out of gas, and it was not fun trying to get it restarted. Gotta get all of the fuel running through all of the fuel line again. Which comes by cranking and cranking and cranking for the mechanical fuel pump. So that's what I was gonna say it was too...but glad u got it fixed

Draekon · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2011, 02:26:53 PM »

I've been having a very similar problem, so it looks like I'll be replacing my fuel pump soon.

At least its an easy one to replace!

Whuntmore · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:45:22 PM »

Ok, now that we have temps over freezing, I'm still having issues. Now they're different...

It's still a mutha to get started, even in late spring temps.

Now she's prone to bog out and stall even after she's warmed up. I have one idea to the possible problem:

I filled up at a gas station (about $35 worth) that put it over half. Then I'm driving up the highway, and all of a sudden, she starts banging away, sputtering, and stalling. I had to carefully give it a tiny bit of petal to get it home.

It can even do this idleing. I thought I had gotten some water in with my gas. So I got some gasline anti-freeze, and poured this crap down the tank. Took her for a drive and she seemed fine.

I go to start it today (sunny plus 13 C - or 55 F) and she's doing it again. It stalled several times. It will diesel, choke, sputter, and then sometimes it'll die, or sometimes it will come back and idle again if I take my foot off.

Carb has been rebuilt (not sure how well), some new lines (not all) it has a new fuel pump, and what looks like a fairly newer filter.

Carb is a non-feedback.

Anyone got any ideas?? I can't even drive her.

IowaEagle · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2011, 07:46:45 PM »

Is the tank vent working properly?

Whuntmore · « **Reply #12 on:** May 02, 2011, 11:33:15 AM »

I don't know, how do I check that?

LaGuardia · « **Reply #13 on:** May 02, 2011, 11:43:32 AM »

Try to look at it from a different point of view...

I had some trouble with similar symptoms, and fuel was not the problem. I just found out that some wires on the dist cap were loose (and some others were loose on the plug side). I fiddled around a bit with the contacts to make sure they were clean and tight, and the problem disappeared.

Too easy ? Give it a try anyway...

Whuntmore · « **Reply #14 on:** May 02, 2011, 12:03:19 PM »

Quote from: LaGuardia on May 02, 2011, 11:43:32 AM

Try to look at it from a different point of view...

I had some trouble with similar symptoms, and fuel was not the problem. I just found out that some wires on the dist cap were loose (and some others were loose on the plug side). I fiddled around a bit with the contacts to make sure they were clean and tight, and the problem disappeared.

Too easy ? Give it a try anyway...

You mean The spark plug wires? I just had them replaced, but at this point I'm willing to try anything.

LaGuardia · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2011, 12:08:34 PM »

Yes, them.
I'm telling this because I had the problem a couple of days after I replaced them... the rubber caps sometimes act as a "reverse" suction cup and tend to "pop out" wires from the dist cap.

It's worth looking at it...

IowaEagle · « **Reply #16 on:** May 03, 2011, 06:25:15 AM »

Yes, the wires could be the problem.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2011, 05:12:25 PM »

Yup, that's what I think it was... She's running without stalling now. I went and checked every wire, pushed them all on tighter with a bit of twisting, and that worked.

She's still not running well - That's still the carb though, and my bloody choke is gotta come off. Even in this temp, it still wants to close the flap all the way, and give it too much fuel on startup. what a pain.

But, at least when I get her started, she doesn't die on me...

LaGuardia · « **Reply #18 on:** May 04, 2011, 03:46:16 AM »

Glad it worked out for you !
Sometimes things are simpler than we think...

The choke shouldn't be a big issue, I'd try cleaning and lubricating all around again and again until the whole thing understands how it should work. If it still won't, just make up something (bent paperclips turn out to be useful

) to keep it forced open. It will work, at least until next fall...

Just a thought... but how hard would it be to modify the choke into something manual, like in the good old times ?
I'm thinking about some cable driven gear, controlled by some internal lever (the "squid release" knob would be perfect - in fact the first time I saw it I though it was a manual choke).

I think having a direct control of the choke system would solve a lot of problems.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #19 on:** May 04, 2011, 11:14:11 AM »

well my problem with my choke is the little bugger has got rivets - Instead of screws holding it on. Soooo I'm gonna have to take the whole carb off, then grind those rivets off, then put on the one I have...

But I might just get ahold of that guy on E-bays who sells the motorcraft carbs for eagles and Jeeps, and get one off him.

GRONK · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2011, 02:58:59 PM »

Probably a bad power valve, or needle set on the carb. Could be a checked fuel line allowing air in but problem probably lies w/in the carb.

Eagleearl · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2011, 10:38:50 PM »

The choke should close all the way when the engine is cold. The choke pull-off should open it up about a quarter inch as soon as there is vaccum when the engine starts. Then the choke control slowly opens the choke as it heats up electrically.

jim · « **Reply #22 on:** May 06, 2011, 01:30:37 PM »

Quote from: Whuntmore on May 04, 2011, 11:14:11 AM

well my problem with my choke is the little bugger has got rivets - Instead of screws holding it on. Soooo I'm gonna have to take the whole carb off, then grind those rivets off, then put on the one I have...

But I might just get ahold of that guy on E-bays who sells the motorcraft carbs for eagles and Jeeps, and get one off him.

"That guy" is now a member here. He may pay shipping for fellow members.
You could search for gronk.

GRONK · « **Reply #23 on:** May 06, 2011, 02:02:47 PM »

Who needs a choke. Just let me know if it's for a Carter or a Motorcraft. I have hundreds of them. If anyone has a use for the older thermal (non-electric) caps, I have over a thousand of them.

Don't grind off the ends of the rivits. Are they rivits or snap-off's? The easiest way to remove snap-offs is to use a hacksaw blade and notch them so you can remove them w/ a flathead screwdriver. If rivits (SP?) you will have to carefully drill off the head and punch the rest out. Might need to tap.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #24 on:** May 06, 2011, 02:14:15 PM »

@Gronk, I have another choke, I just have to get the old one off. Ok, I'll try that first. Thx for the info.

@ Jim,

Yup, I actually sent him a message on the 4th (same date as my above posting) and told him about the site. He (Michael/Gronk) stated he has sold to several members here. I did mention that quite a few members here didn't know about him (I didn't until recently).

It was great of him to show up, and introduce himself here - As I'm sure he's very busy.

I'm probably gonna get one of his carbs, and get it on my Eagle. (he's suggested the 2150 to me) She won't start right, or run well until she's warmed up. I really need to check that choke, but I think that's part of the problem.

The other problem is I've never rebuilt a carb before, and this was my first one. It runs, but I know I didn't do the setup quite right. As a result, she doesn't run quite right. I've brought that little pain over for a tune (at least 3 people - Two were mechanics) and it still doesn't work right.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #25 on:** May 07, 2011, 08:42:16 PM »

Ok, so today I was heading down to Pat's Place (another member here) and my car died on the side of the road.

It's not getting any spark, and that bloody choke keeps closing shut - Even when it's full operating temp, that choke will close that flap.

Anyways, the spark plugs are new, the wires are new, and now I've got a new distributor cap.

No spark to the plugs, and man! were they fouled. They were very sooty, and one was almost caked with soot. those plugs haven't been on the car for like 4 months. Maybe 300 miles of driving time on them at the most. So I know that carb is running wayyy too rich. I can't seem to get it to lean off.

So, the only things left I can think that would cause no spark is possibly:

the coil,
the module inside the distributor,
or the HEI,

I have no idea what else it could be.

GRONK · « **Reply #26 on:** May 10, 2011, 11:30:26 AM »

Make sure you have the correct choke. Carter chokes open in the opposite direction from Motorcraft/Holley chokes but look VERY similar. You can always remove and "flip" the inner coil. If you have good power to your choke (+) try running a ground (-) to one of the screw terminals on the choke cap retainer. Choke should be fully open in about 2 minutes of engine running.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #27 on:** May 10, 2011, 03:09:45 PM »

Well the car is running now, it was that bloody coil. I got an Accel 8140 coil, and it started first click of the key.

I swapped Pat's 'good working' carter carb, with my 'poorly adjusted' carb. she fired up no sweat.

So, pretty soon I'm gonna get the MC 2150, and be done with all this carb nonsense, and then she should run right.

IowaEagle · « **Reply #28 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:41:46 PM »

Was it the OE coil?

Whuntmore · « **Reply #29 on:** May 12, 2011, 12:47:41 PM »

Quote from: IowaEagle on May 12, 2011, 12:41:46 PM

Was it the OE coil?

What's OE? Some of this 'Netlingo' I don't understand. If you mean the one I took out, it was pretty much the same coil. It was a Yellow (most of the label was worn off) and it was a two post.

the Previous Owner had already done part of the ignition conversion, but had missed a few things. He/she had done the Dist. cap and rotor, and the coil.

they had missed the 8mm wires, and the upgraded HEI (I think that's what it's called).

Jurjen · « **Reply #30 on:** May 12, 2011, 01:11:25 PM »

OE = Original Equipment
OEM = Original Equipment Manufacturer

IowaEagle · « **Reply #31 on:** May 12, 2011, 02:49:10 PM »

Yup, OE = Original Equipment. If the coil was yellow, then it was not original equipment. Sounds like a partial what we call a Motorcraft Ignition Upgrade and others call a TFI upgrade was attempted. There have been some issues with the Accel coils of late.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #32 on:** May 12, 2011, 03:09:20 PM »

Gotcha. Nope, it wasn't OE. That coil was similar to the new one.

yeah, it's funny that PO only did a 'partial' upgrade to that whole mod... Must've not been a member of the 'Nest' !!

IowaEagle · « **Reply #33 on:** May 12, 2011, 03:21:06 PM »

So, do you have the larger diameter distributor cap with the appropriate rotor? If not, you really need that too, and the OE wires will not work on it so you will need the 8mm wire set that works on that cap.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #34 on:** May 12, 2011, 03:26:17 PM »

Yes I got it, so no worries there.

I got new plugs, 8mm wires, bigger ford dist, cap, rotor, and adaptor.
I have the better ignition (brand new motorcraft HEI), and the new coil.

I also have a new starter block.

Pat put another Non-feedback carb (yup, still a carter), on my car, and she fires up like a dream. That will do until I get the Motorcraft 2150 carb.

I'll have to get some pics...

IowaEagle · « **Reply #35 on:** May 12, 2011, 03:29:14 PM »

Sounds like all is good now. Make sure and save your carb for those who want to keep their AMC I-6 Carter-ized.

Whuntmore · « **Reply #36 on:** May 12, 2011, 04:11:19 PM »

for sure, Since Pat has like 2, or 3 eagles, he's getting the Carter. That way, he'll have two non-feedback carbs.

Here's a really short video with what I got for the engine starting issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOWmHeVkN2o

It's not the best video camera work, but you can see what I've put in it, to get it to run better.