TBI

[rmick]

Anybody else try and do a TBI install on there Eagle. I know Jeep guys have. Here is a good right up on installing TBI.  Might do this this summer http://www.binderplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48769

[vangremlin]

I've been thinking about it also, maybe on my next Eagle

Here is another good write-up. 

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f12/junkyard-tbi-write-up-1066016/

Someone also posted a link to eBay for the wiring harness you would need, rather than having to mess with pulling and splicing the old one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271305269115?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

[rmick]

Was curious if there is enough of an advantage to doing this for a daily driver to make it worth while. Better fuel economy and power range? over a good running carb.  The Jeep guys usually do this for the advantage of extreme angles and never running out of fuel in a carb  Would be good for trips with large altitude changes to maintain the proper fuel air ratio.

[vangremlin]

Would be good for trips with large altitude changes to maintain the proper fuel air ratio.

That's why I'd be particularly interested in it.  I'd be much more "inclined" to take mine up in the mountains with fuel injection.  Plus, because emission inspections are now required for newly re-licensed classic cars, the opportunities for upgrading the system with a different carb or removing the old emissions equipment are limited.  If you switch to fuel injection, that is considered an upgrade and you can remove all the old emissions stuff.  At least that's the way it works in CO. 

[captspillane]

It pains me to see someone buy a Motorcraft kit for $400 and then report 11 mpg in their Eagle and terrible idle issues. For about $600 I'll have that same Eagle running perfectly, starting immediately, and averaging 25 mpg with TBI. An automatic Eagle is capable of 28 mpg on the highway and should never get less than 22 mpg, even driven aggressively in traffic.

I'm doing the majority of my Eagles with TBI. I have already installed and removed the Howell system from my green 1980 Sport wagon. It was TBI for about a year and I removed it at the end of this summer to CNC copy the adaptor before this next summer. The positive difference is huge and it is very simple and cheap. The only reason to go MPI is if you are pushing for power over economy or if you already have a whole donor XJ to work with. Economical daily drivers are better off TBI than MPI usually.

My CJ8 was owned by the JP magazine guys and in 2004 they purchased two new kits, one a Howell MPI kit based on the 1992 High Output 4.0 system and the other the Howell TBI system based on a GM TBI. The Howell kit cost $3200 and the Howell kit cost $1300. They put both systems on my Scrambler and ran them 100 miles to record the difference. It was a huge benefit over a carb but there was nearly no difference in performance between the two. When I bought my CJ8 it still had the MPI installed and the Howell kit was still boxed up neatly and basically brand new.

When I installed it on my Green wagon I did find that the Howell kit is flawed. The included fuel pump is very noisy and unreliable when installed by Howell instructions. If you run out of gas you need to loosen the input clamp and get the air out, or you won't be able to start and the pump will burn up and die. Been there, done that. Howell wants $140 for another one. They give you flex line to get from the pump up to the TBI, which a stone punctured and I got a nasty fuel leak one day from it. If you buy a stock Chevy unit for like $30 off rock auto it goes right into the AMC fuel tank where it belongs. It will autoprime, it will stay cool and last a long time, and it will be totally quiet.

Also they rely on the TBI pressure valve to knock down the fuel pressure. It returns through the original AMC vent line. Since the vent line is a small diameter and prone to rusty out from moist vapor, that can be a big problem. My Eagle hissed badly and ran terribly until I replaced the vent line. Ideally you should have the fuel pump in the tank then a pressure control outside it. The pressure should get to the TBI closer to the right value so that you're not pushing a huge volume of gas through the tiny vent line.

I also found that the Howell spacer is prone to air leaks because they made their bolts recessed with huge holes that provide a hole from outside inside. The instructions simply state you're supposed to RTV the crap out of it. I got another company's adaptor that is no longer sold but has precise flush mounted flat heads that easily seal with a very small amount of RTV on the gasket. I'm making my own adaptor using the proper hole design and the nicer shape of the Howell one and I intend to sell them here on this site.

The Howell kit also eliminates the spark control and has a special program on it to make it run properly without that. I'm going to follow the Binder Planet plans and simply use a GM factory program and incorporate my Skip White HEI distributor into the spark control. I happen to also own a Scout and I bought a full TBi system for it from another guy on the Binder planet. In a couple years I'll be able to post pictures and details about an IH 345, AMC 304, AMC 360, 3.0L Iron Duke, and a couple AMC I6s all happily running with TBI. It's a good way to go.

[IowaEagle]

Thumbs up added for your great, tested, information.

[rollguy]

Thumbs up added for your great, tested, information.

Although I don't usually like reading long posts, you always have the most interesting and informative posts on this site Capt'.  I find that it is information overload every time I see a post from you, but after reading, I am thankful I took the time to read.  Thumbs up added.

[Prafeston]

Agreed, it can definitely be too much at times!

Sure wish I had all that knowledge in my head though!

[IowaEagle]

I could probably spend a week just going thru his posts and getting them into the Eaglepedia.  On my list, which keeps getting longer.

[captspillane]

My long posts are rarely read by anyone but they are practice runs for the finished product. Thanks for showing some appreciation for them. I'm not much for chitchat or for people too lazy to google stuff on their own. I'll either ignore questions or write a long answer, not much in between.

I registered a website recently: www.captain223.com. I barely put anything there just to have something there. When the website gets a little further developed I'll eventually just post links to articles, not attempt to write a new article length post each time. Long term I will be collecting all these long posts, rewriting them, and organizing them as a go to guide on different subjects.

 For now I've been reposting the important ones in my project thread "Perkiomen Project Pics" to make them easier to find later.

[IowaEagle]

Thanks for doing this Capt.  We cannot have this valuable information archived in too many places, case in point, had not others saved stuff from the Nest I don't know where we would be today.

[TLC87Eagle]

Great info. Every time I thumb through a 4WD hardware catalog, I always stop and ponder about getting one of these setups...

http://www.4wd.com/?t_pn=FST30295-KIT

But I am always turned away by the price. Plus the only reason I would get it would be for performance increase and maybe smoother idle and faster start-up.
I already get about 26mph driving easy on the highway, so I doubt I could improve on that much.

[captspillane]

That kit is $1600 and you get a TBI that has never been on any production car. That's foolish. My kits use all factory parts from the tried and true GM systems used for about a decade of GM car production. The solid metal adaptor is really the only thing you can't easily replace or find online technical support for. The Howell system does the same thing for $1200 but didn't do it too well. For me to do one of my cars with totally brand new stuff I'll spend about $600. Doing it with junkyard parts is closer to $200 but very labor intensive and not worth the hassle of selling to others. I figure on selling kits to others for about $700 once I've gotten it down to a science on my own cars.

I'd be willing to do a kit for someone this very week but it would be about the cost of the Howell kit. I'd need more profit built in to justify working on someone else's car while mine sits stagnant in a building I pay rent of $600 per month.

[vangremlin]

Someone is making the adaptor and selling it on eBay. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-AMC-258-4-2-DIY-GM-4-3-TBI-Fuel-Injection-adapter-system-/350916904548?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b4470664

[rmick]

With all the great info I will start hitting the local salvage yards and find the stuff I need to do this. Shouldn't be any harder then the 4.0 swap I did in my 72 gremmy. You can also use the Howell instilation info as well http://www.howellefi.com/pdfs/jeep_kit.pdf Will try and make my own adapter plate and modify the harness from the donor vehicle

[Alcoatari]

When I installed it on my Green wagon I did find that the Howell kit is flawed. The included fuel pump is very noisy and unreliable when installed by Howell instructions. If you run out of gas you need to loosen the input clamp and get the air out, or you won't be able to start and the pump will burn up and die. Been there, done that. Howell wants $140 for another one. They give you flex line to get from the pump up to the TBI, which a stone punctured and I got a nasty fuel leak one day from it. If you buy a stock Chevy unit for like $30 off rock auto it goes right into the AMC fuel tank where it belongs. It will autoprime, it will stay cool and last a long time, and it will be totally quiet.

Also they rely on the TBI pressure valve to knock down the fuel pressure. It returns through the original AMC vent line. Since the vent line is a small diameter and prone to rusty out from moist vapor, that can be a big problem. My Eagle hissed badly and ran terribly until I replaced the vent line. Ideally you should have the fuel pump in the tank then a pressure control outside it. The pressure should get to the TBI closer to the right value so that you're not pushing a huge volume of gas through the tiny vent line.

Hello,

I have heard of some similar issues and your posted solution intrigues me. I am putting the Howell TBI kit on an 81 SX4 and I am worried about some of these issues.

The GM stock pump that fits in the tank... is this from any GM 4.3L application of the relevant era? Does this unit have a float for level indication and is it compatible with the AMC instrument cluster? I understand rewiring is necessary, but I already have level indicator issues and it would be great to kill two birds with one pump.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[captspillane]

The GM stock pump that fits in the tank... is this from any GM 4.3L application of the relevant era? Does this unit have a float for level indication and is it compatible with the AMC instrument cluster? I understand rewiring is necessary, but I already have level indicator issues and it would be great to kill two birds with one pump.

No, the float that sends the signal to the fuel gauge is separate from the pickup tube. The fuel pump basically replaces the bottom of the pickup tube on the AMC unit.

[Alcoatari]

No, the float that sends the signal to the fuel gauge is separate from the pickup tube. The fuel pump basically replaces the bottom of the pickup tube on the AMC unit.

Thank you for the reply.

That makes sense. Going to check out Rockauto now, which vehicle(s) was this in tank unit originally from?

Thanks again

[captspillane]

I was using a 2001 Oldsmobile Bravada as a search term simply because we own one. You can get a new AMC fuel sending unit pretty cheap still too, so you could have an entire replacement unit prepared before you pull the old one. That would be pretty useful too, since you could compare the length of the new fuel pickup against the old to make sure you matched it properly.

[Alcoatari]

D*mn:... that be some solid backyard fab.

I will follow this guideline, thanks for the input. Never really came to terms with the whole in-line exposed right next to my catalytic converter fuel pump idea via howell.

I had considered buying a sealed fuel cell, most of which come with a GM pump unit, but this simplifies things greatly.

[Alcoatari]

I was using a 2001 Oldsmobile Bravada as a search term simply because we own one. You can get a new AMC fuel sending unit pretty cheap still too, so you could have an entire replacement unit prepared before you pull the old one. That would be pretty useful too, since you could compare the length of the new fuel pickup against the old to make sure you matched it properly.

Okay, I bought the parts. Any tips on insulating the wiring or anchoring the unit? Hoping It doesn't flop around in there too much... I imagine I can sneak the fuel pump wiring through the same hole the sending unit wiring goes through, yeah? Or make a hole and epoxy?

Anyway, thanks again. I'm sure it will be pretty self explanatory when the parts arrive, but I like to learn from others' experiences when given the chance.

[Monkeyjoe]

I just replaced the fuel pump on my Chevy truck last year,  The connectors inside the tank are just spade type connectors, nothing special or high tech.  they have the rubber boots around them.  My new pump came with a new plug setup that I had to splice into the old wiring, I soldered together and used heat shrink around the joints.   

[Alcoatari]

I just replaced the fuel pump on my Chevy truck last year,  The connectors inside the tank are just spade type connectors, nothing special or high tech.  they have the rubber boots around them.  My new pump came with a new plug setup that I had to splice into the old wiring, I soldered together and used heat shrink around the joints.

Okay. Sounds good. I'm not much of a hand at soldering, but I'll manage.

Thanks Monkeyjoe, and Captspillane.

[captspillane]

http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?278348-GM-TBI-fuel-pump-instal-into-a-1984-CJ7-tank

I think that's a guy putting a Chevy 350 swap in his CJ7. He used the fuel pump I would use for a TBI AMC 360. The 4.3L is a better match for the I6. Same concept.

[Alcoatari]

Sweet... very comprehensive.

[Alcoatari]

I just replaced the fuel pump on my Chevy truck last year,  The connectors inside the tank are just spade type connectors, nothing special or high tech.  they have the rubber boots around them.  My new pump came with a new plug setup that I had to splice into the old wiring, I soldered together and used heat shrink around the joints.

I just had to do this same deal with a 2000 Silverado 1500. Did your pump come with the GM pressure sensor on it? I bought a cheap-o pump and mine did not. It had a place for it, but I had to drill a 3/8" hole and fit a new sensor from the parts store. This on top of having to rewire the old style square harness to the flat one that came with the pump, just as you mentioned.

I really have to get around to improving my soldering skills. I just spliced and taped and taped and taped.

I didn't happen to look at the internal connectors on the GM unit, but what you're saying makes sense. For this project I will force myself to solder everything I can.

The cave man inside me just keeps telling me to keep the magic fire out of the gas tank.

[Monkeyjoe]

My truck is a 1994 Chevy, so it does not have the pressure sensor on the pump. 

Splice and tape will almost always corrod and cause problems later. 

Solder is the best in my opinion.  Use Flux and an extra set of hands if you dont have an aligtor clip.  I made my own "3rd hand" by nailing  2 aligator clips to a board about 2 inches apart.  I just line everything up and clamp down with the clips.  that leave both of my hand free to manage the iron and the solder.

[BenM]

My truck is a 1994 Chevy, so it does not have the pressure sensor on the pump. 

Splice and tape will almost always corrod and cause problems later. 

Solder is the best in my opinion.  Use Flux and an extra set of hands if you dont have an aligtor clip.  I made my own "3rd hand" by nailing  2 aligator clips to a board about 2 inches apart.  I just line everything up and clamp down with the clips.  that leave both of my hand free to manage the iron and the solder.

Where I don't solder, I use "Weatherpack" connectors. You need the special crimp tool for them, but I've been very successful with them. There are flat and round styles and they were used many places in AMC cars and Jeeps, several of the emissions connectors on the Eagle are the round style. Cherokees tended to use the flat style.

Don't forget to use shrink tube or self fusing silicone tape over the connections to protect them. Electrical tape just comes apart after a while.

There are several places that supply TBI kits for AMCs now. The lowest I've seen is around $850.

I don't know why some venders eliminated the connection to the distributor. I thought that HEI and Duraspark modules were overall electrically interchangeable.

[carnuck]

My plan is a complete Cherokee tank that already has a sender and pump in it with a "new" filler welded onto the side where the Eagle filler is (I cut that section off a bottom rotted tank). Actually, it'll be pop riveted in place with gas proof sealer.

[Alcoatari]

There are several places that supply TBI kits for AMCs now. The lowest I've seen is around $850.

Unfortunately, I bought the Howell kit almost five years ago, and didn't really find much else at the time. So that's what I've got, and I have to make the best of it. Now that all of my other exhaust and drive train mods are finished, this is my last mod before I can finally smog.

[carnuck]

Running HO EFI is easiest I've found. Do head swap anyways.

[Alcoatari]

OKAY, so here is what I came up with for my in tank fuel pump / fuel sending unit.

I am not trying to hijack this thread, but a few of you guys gave me some great advice concerning this device, and I wanted to share my experience in order to possibly help someone else along.

First, I bought a fuel sending unit for a 76-87 CJ. It is NOT the same as the one from the eagle, but the lock ring and the plate have the same dimensions. Here is a pic of the kit from ebay:



Then I bought a fuel pump repair kit for an 89 Bravada/C1500/S10 also from ebay:



Total cost for the two was under $50. This is what they actually looked like:




Then, with some 7/16" steel tubing from the parts store, a couple brass compression fittings, some fuel resistant sealant (aforementioned monkey snot), I married the two. I had to cut the feed tube on the CJ sender. Total cost for me was under $70. This is nice considering the only place that sold an eagle fuel sending unit wanted over $110 and they were out of stock...

I had to bend the floater for use in the eagle tank. As for the power feed for the fuel pump, I drilled a hole in the top of the plate. For added insulation, I cut an RTV dispenser tube down to fit through the drill-hole, and ran the wire through it. I secured this on the exposed side with an ample dose of marine-weld. Then I soldered everything in place and attached my weather pack connector. This hooked up to a line I ran down the frame rail to the fuel pump signal feed from the TBI ECM. For the ground to the pump, I grounded to the inside of the plate with a female spade fitting, soldered and shrink-wrapped. Common ground with the sender circuitry, you can see this in the second pic here:








Here is the unit mostly assembled:

At this point, I soldered everything that needed soldering and shrink-wrapped everything that needed it. Make sure you give yourself enough room for the lock ring, which I have installed upside down in this picture, 
 
And this is pretty much the finished product with weatherpack and grounds visible. You can see that I added extra insulation for the hot line via a corrugated wire loom. Probably a bad idea to have electrical tape floating around in fuel, so I later zip-tied everywhere I saw tape-ends. In the future I would use self-fusing tape.

And here is a pic of the unit installed in my eagle's gas tank. You can see the fuel feed line to the left and the return line to the right, they line up very nicely with this setup. Some minor bending may be required.

And finally, with the fuel lines installed. Oh yeah, put on some safety goggles if you haven’t by now... And you're done!


I hope this helps someone. Make sure your return line is clear before installing a high pressure pump like this. Also, make sure your internal regulator can handle it, especially if you have a junkyard TBI.

I am going to run a bypass fuel pressure regulator with a gauge so I can monitor and adjust fuel pressure at my leisure. I still have some studying to do, but I think a proper setup pressure regulator can let you eliminate the internal regulator completely.

You can, of course, use your stock fuel sender. In my case, my car is over 100 miles away from where I live, so I couldn't leave my tank without something in that spot. I had to improvise so I could work on this unit remotely. I had it built before I had a chance to remove my old unit. I would probably recommend using the stock unit if you have no space or distance limitations.

Anyway, thanks for watching.

[Prafeston]

Dude, great write up! Definitely Eaglepedia material!

[Alcoatari]

Thank you, sir!

[Baskinator]

Very nice job, I am definitely going this route when I go fuel injection! Does the pump get in the way of the float at all? It looks a little close in the pictures.

[Alcoatari]

Very nice job, I am definitely going this route when I go fuel injection! Does the pump get in the way of the float at all? It looks a little close in the pictures.

Thank you,

The pump CAN get in the way, but if you do this, you will see that the floater has a couple grooves on it. I used the groove that offset the floater away from my pump. If this isn't enough, you can creatively bend the pickup tube or floater rod. Just be aware you have to fit it all through a tiny space. That part sucks, but it is doable.

I expect I will have to make some adjustments for my floater or even pickup tube down the road. Another question is if the gauge will read right. I will know when I'm ready to hook my battery back up. Even if it operates upside down, that's an easy fix. In my case, with around half a tank, I wont know anything until I drive a ways. But I was having gauge issues before.

[4x4jollyr]

Thank you Captain, and Alcoatari(are you in aluminum?:>)) for all this great info.  Un-val-u-able.  and thats not mispelled! I plan to convert my 258 hopefully this summer.

[Alcoatari]

Nope, not in aluminum. Just a lowly grease-monkey. The name is an amalgam of two items that were lying around me when I needed a screen name. I hate having numbers in my screen name... Just some creeping mental pathology of mine.

And you are welcome for the info.

(It is worth noting, the fuel pump works great, though I still have some kinks to work out with the level sender.)