AMC Eagle Den Forum

The Shop => Transmission Shop => Topic started by: a-haig on May 07, 2007, 01:24:36 PM

Title: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 07, 2007, 01:24:36 PM
if my eagle is not warmed up second gear likes to grind, be hard to get into, and it used to not go in to second at all, it would just grind real hard.

as well as my automatic eagle not wanting to pick up to well its just real pokey until it gets up to speed and still doesnt do much better, and I know its the tranny and not the motor, I would just like a little help understanding, as well as fixes.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on May 07, 2007, 02:18:27 PM
Synchros sound shot.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 07, 2007, 04:54:42 PM
thats what I thought, but once it warms up it shifts with no trouble at all. if it is the synchronizer then Im atleast lucky its only the going from 1st to 2nd.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: T5258 on May 07, 2007, 05:09:03 PM
viscosity of the fluid could be the culprit....have you ever changed the trans fluid???
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: Smitch on May 07, 2007, 05:35:29 PM
Is your automatic Eagle going into second and third gears too soon? That would make it pokey. If so, it could be the throttle kick-down linkage.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: bigdog56e on May 07, 2007, 07:03:54 PM
  On the manual, could have the wrong fluid in it, is it four or five speed?
                                                                  Eddie
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 07, 2007, 08:08:22 PM
my manual is a five speed I figured it would just be regular 80-90 and thats what I put in it but it did it before and after the change, it started getting better before I changed it and kept getting better after.  but now its not getting better or worse, only when its cold does it grind a little.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 07, 2007, 08:10:55 PM
I actually havent bought the auto yet but Im getting wednesday, and ive only driven it once. I just wanted to get some input on what to look for and how to fix it. Im no genious when it comes to trtansmissions or attempting to set a carb those are not my area, but I am doing my best to learn.

its an sx4. in the 5 years Ive wanted an eagle Ive never seen one in person, so when I saw it I had to buy it.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: Smitch on May 07, 2007, 08:20:00 PM
One thing to check would be the clutch pedal travel distance. If there's something preventing it from going the full distance.....you know like a floor mat or a bunched up carpet. Probably not but it's an easy check!  :)
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on May 07, 2007, 09:55:42 PM
What to look for in an auto:  Leaks from the "inspection plate" area, and elsewhere and make sure it has a working trans throttle rod.  Of course test drive it to see how it shifts.  If the car has been sitting for a while it may take a few seconds after putting it in gear for everything get up to pressure and move.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: T5258 on May 08, 2007, 09:29:39 AM
80/90 is not correct for the T-5....I've done some research on this & found that AMC had their own fluid...part number 8983000000....when I called the Jeep dealer I deal with, the number does change to a Mopar fluid (I forget the #) and auto zone does sell an equivalent fluid....Castrol synchromesh I think; it's a 70/80 weight from what I've read on other Jeep forums...If you call your friendly Mopar dealer with the AMC number, they should be able to cross it to the new number....
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 08, 2007, 03:30:34 PM
 I know my auto does leak and I assumed this was the problem, but I really need input because I know where and how to fix it, but, I was told when filled it does the same thing.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 08, 2007, 03:33:15 PM
on my manual, I went to autozone and their system told me it took a special fluid, but it said the equivilent part was 80-90. I thought something was wrong, because when I drained it I got wierded out, the fluid already in it looked like regular transmission fluid.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: T5258 on May 08, 2007, 07:00:33 PM
The 82 TSM specifies dexron/mercon in the 5-speed, but by 84, AMC had changed that to the special fluid I mentioned in an earlier post.  Evidently, there was a durabillity issue w/using Dexron, which is why they recommended the 8983 000 000 fluid.  When I had my old SX/4 (5-speed), I used Dexron, not knowing (at the time) about the newer fluid & never had a problem.  Having said that, I will DEFINITELY use either the new Mopar fluid, or the Castrol equivalent when I (someday) change the transmission oil in my wagon.  If you're bored, just type in the old AMC part number either on Yahoo or google & I think you'll find the same heated discussions on this subject that I did on some Jeep forums....some are pretty entertaining to read..... ;)
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: T5258 on May 08, 2007, 07:05:33 PM
something else I found......from a Jeep forum.......



The problem with T-5 is very complex. From what I have read, the T-5 is rated to 265 ft-lb torque, the AX-15 is rated to 285 ft-lb, and the NV3550 is rated (conservatively) at 300 ft-lb. So, if it is nearly as strong as the AX-15, why does it have such a bad reputation?

I hit the website for http://www.5speeds.com/ talk about a shop that knows their T-5s...the guy was very very knowledgeable! He indicated the largest problems (that gave T-5s a bad rap) dealt with a recalled third gear (went from 29 spline to 27 spline). That upgrade is supposed to help beef the thing up a good deal. Other problems deal with incorrect or improper fluid levels. These non-world class transmissions operate without needle bearings (instead having deep oil grooves). As such, they should only run gear oil.

I have done a decent bit of research on the "correct" fluid to use. A good friend is the Parts Manager at a local Jeep store and works with many mechanics who worked on these, I have looked over Factory Service Manuals from 1982, 1983, and 1984-1986, searched the Factory Recalls, and Tech Bulletins...

When they first came out, AMC recommended using ATF (1982 FSM). However, there was a recall for this in 1982 (Recall Number: 82V125000) indicating that the “ORIGINAL PRODUCTION TRANSMISSION LUBRICANT USED IN THE INVOLVED VEHICLES MAY NOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE LUBRICATION TO PROTECT THE TRANSMISSIONS FIRST GEAR.” FSM supplement for 1982 (Tech Bulletin) and the 1983 FSM both indicate to use 90wt in the T-5. By 1984, AMC started using a proprietary manual transmission lubricant. This was affectionately referred to as "fish oil" by the mechanics or AMC manual transmission fluid (Part Number 8983 000 000). This fluid was discontinued by AMC and currently, Chrysler is recommending the use of GL3 gear oil.

From my limited understanding, GL3 is very different from GL4 or GL5. I emailed Valvoline regarding this (as I haven't seen GL3 or GL4 in a very long time). They indicated that the issue is with the type of sulfate used in the lube. Apparently activated sulfate (used in some GL5 lubes) can eat brass synchros. Valvoline indicated: "The Valvoline High Performance Gear Oil 80-w90 can be used for both GL4 and GL5. The real concern is the type of sulfate used in the gear oil. You can not use an active sulfate for GL-4 applications. Valvoline uses an inactive sulfate that will not harm any yellow metal such as bronze. This allows our products to be used in manual transmissions that have bronze synchronizers."

All of this being said, there is an issue with shifting in colder climates. Apparently, the gear lube is almost too thick to allow smooth shifting on cold days, until the lube warms up a little. Many have reported good luck with synthetics, some have cut the gear lube with a little ATF, and some have reported good luck running 20w50 motor oil. I am not sure what the overall best solution is, but the only “Factory” recommended solution is to run 80-90…

I hope this was not too confusing, I have researched it a lot and written a similar dissertation in a lot of other forums. This is a little more concise...
twmattox is offline      Reply With Quote
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on May 08, 2007, 07:43:09 PM
Excellent informationT5258 it appears you have put a lot of research and study into this.  This info should be much appreciated by those running T5's.  I am going to sticky this so it will not get lost.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 09, 2007, 10:02:43 PM
I just got my sx4 a few hours ago, it leaks at the front main seal, and the tranny slips until it gets up to speed. I put transmission stop leak in it and, to my suprise it actually worked within minutes.

and as for my 5 speed wagon, a wondered if fluid was the problem, but I really didnt suspect it to much, with it being summer the 80-90 shouldnt be a problem... I hope.

where did you find stuff on recalls I havnt been able to find anything.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on May 10, 2007, 06:53:10 AM
If the front seal is leaking I would keep an eye on it.  Could be the torque converter input lugs cracked and have damaged the seal.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 10, 2007, 01:21:47 PM
please explain, Im a little tranmsmission retarded. Ive only learned what Ive I had to work on, and Ive never touched a transmission.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on May 10, 2007, 02:15:27 PM
One problem with this torque convertor, and its not just limited to AMC's, is that the input shaft from the torque convertor which goes into the front pump is of a "thin wall" construction.  On the end of the pump are two "lugs" which engage the pump and makes it work. The area where the lugs attach to the shaft can over time crack and cause the lugs to spread which will destroy the front pump seal and if let go long enough also take out the front pump. The leak first starts as drips and then becomes a steady stream as more damage to the seal takes place.  The only repair option you have is to pull the tranny, get a new converter, seal and bushing.  And, while you have it out if the trans needs an overhaul do that at the same time as most of the labor costs you incur is the removal and reinstallation of the transmission -- actual rebuild time and parts costs are pretty reasonable.  Also consider replacing the flex plate -- as the ring gear might show signs of wear after all these years and its best to do it while you have the trans out for other work.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 10, 2007, 08:49:56 PM
well good news is a tranny rebuild is going to be free plus parts.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: a-haig on May 10, 2007, 09:03:46 PM
 where did you find the recall info

something else I found......from a Jeep forum.......



The problem with T-5 is very complex. From what I have read, the T-5 is rated to 265 ft-lb torque, the AX-15 is rated to 285 ft-lb, and the NV3550 is rated (conservatively) at 300 ft-lb. So, if it is nearly as strong as the AX-15, why does it have such a bad reputation?

I hit the website for http://www.5speeds.com/ talk about a shop that knows their T-5s...the guy was very very knowledgeable! He indicated the largest problems (that gave T-5s a bad rap) dealt with a recalled third gear (went from 29 spline to 27 spline).   That upgrade is supposed to help beef the thing up a good deal. Other problems deal with incorrect or improper fluid levels. These non-world class transmissions operate without needle bearings (instead having deep oil grooves). As such, they should only run gear oil.

I have done a decent bit of research on the "correct" fluid to use. A good friend is the Parts Manager at a local Jeep store and works with many mechanics who worked on these, I have looked over Factory Service Manuals from 1982, 1983, and 1984-1986, searched the Factory Recalls, and Tech Bulletins...

When they first came out, AMC recommended using ATF (1982 FSM). However, there was a recall for this in 1982 (Recall Number: 82V125000) indicating that the “ORIGINAL PRODUCTION TRANSMISSION LUBRICANT USED IN THE INVOLVED VEHICLES MAY NOT PROVIDE ADEQUATE LUBRICATION TO PROTECT THE TRANSMISSIONS FIRST GEAR.” FSM supplement for 1982 (Tech Bulletin) and the 1983 FSM both indicate to use 90wt in the T-5. By 1984, AMC started using a proprietary manual transmission lubricant. This was affectionately referred to as "fish oil" by the mechanics or AMC manual transmission fluid (Part Number 8983 000 000). This fluid was discontinued by AMC and currently, Chrysler is recommending the use of GL3 gear oil.

From my limited understanding, GL3 is very different from GL4 or GL5. I emailed Valvoline regarding this (as I haven't seen GL3 or GL4 in a very long time). They indicated that the issue is with the type of sulfate used in the lube. Apparently activated sulfate (used in some GL5 lubes) can eat brass synchros. Valvoline indicated: "The Valvoline High Performance Gear Oil 80-w90 can be used for both GL4 and GL5. The real concern is the type of sulfate used in the gear oil. You can not use an active sulfate for GL-4 applications. Valvoline uses an inactive sulfate that will not harm any yellow metal such as bronze. This allows our products to be used in manual transmissions that have bronze synchronizers."

All of this being said, there is an issue with shifting in colder climates. Apparently, the gear lube is almost too thick to allow smooth shifting on cold days, until the lube warms up a little. Many have reported good luck with synthetics, some have cut the gear lube with a little ATF, and some have reported good luck running 20w50 motor oil. I am not sure what the overall best solution is, but the only “Factory” recommended solution is to run 80-90…

I hope this was not too confusing, I have researched it a lot and written a similar dissertation in a lot of other forums. This is a little more concise...
twmattox is offline      Reply With Quote
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on May 10, 2007, 09:11:07 PM
Its available thru a subscription service.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: monsterbronc on August 12, 2007, 12:42:20 AM
Its available thru a subscription service.

subscription to what?

As for fluid,
you folks may or may not know, Im a professional diesel mechanic. I work on tractor-trailer semi trucks. recently all truck manufacturers have gone to fully synthetic 50w in the tranny and fully synthetic70-90w in the rearends. I have seen how much better the synthetics stand up to these big engines than the old mineral based stuff. we are getting as much as a million miles out of some of these trucks, and a few still have the original drivetrain,

so my t-4 has 1/2 qt lucas, and is filled the rest of the way with fully synthetic 50w transmission lube.

I used lucas to help it to stick to the parts, (if youve ever messed with the stuff you know what I mean, its like molasas) I actually was having a odd noise in the bronco (T-18 with mineral based 85-140w) took it apart and found nothing, put it back together still made an intermittant bering squeal. just for the heak of it I drained it and dumped in 1 qt of lucas, and filled it back up with fresh 85-140.
hasnt made a sound in the 3 years since, and as soon as I did it it started shifting smoother than it ever had when I bought it almost 10 years ago, the stick almost glides into the next hole.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: IowaEagle on August 12, 2007, 09:13:01 AM
I forget where you subscribe too for the recall information.   I have stumbled across it before.  They also provide subsribers with the factory bulletins to make repairs.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: BenM on August 21, 2007, 01:21:57 AM
I wish I still had the link to the Porshe forum I stumbled across where there was a huge discussion on this subject. See, they have a problem where the transmission and axle share the same fluid. One of the GL ratings (5, I believe) is really good for lubricating differential gears because it resists the shear forces, but eats the syncros. The other GL fluid that works really well with the syncros is not good for the diff.
There was one, special, expensive brand name fluid that was close enough to both to work adequately.

The point being that the GL-3, 4, & 5 names are types, not ratings. One is only better then the other depending on application. That quote is very good.

Gear oils are much higher numbers for the same viscosity then motor oils. Dextron was 10w-20 I believe, and Dextron III is 5w-20, and I believe that's similar to a 65w80 gear oil. But I'm pulling these numbers out of fuzzy memory.
 
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: v0rt3x86 on May 19, 2008, 11:18:15 PM
Its available thru a subscription service.

subscription to what?

As for fluid,
you folks may or may not know, Im a professional diesel mechanic. I work on tractor-trailer semi trucks. recently all truck manufacturers have gone to fully synthetic 50w in the tranny and fully synthetic70-90w in the rearends. I have seen how much better the synthetics stand up to these big engines than the old mineral based stuff. we are getting as much as a million miles out of some of these trucks, and a few still have the original drivetrain,

so my t-4 has 1/2 qt lucas, and is filled the rest of the way with fully synthetic 50w transmission lube.

I used lucas to help it to stick to the parts, (if youve ever messed with the stuff you know what I mean, its like molasas) I actually was having a odd noise in the bronco (T-18 with mineral based 85-140w) took it apart and found nothing, put it back together still made an intermittant bering squeal. just for the heak of it I drained it and dumped in 1 qt of lucas, and filled it back up with fresh 85-140.
hasnt made a sound in the 3 years since, and as soon as I did it it started shifting smoother than it ever had when I bought it almost 10 years ago, the stick almost glides into the next hole.


Are you using synthetic Lucas? If not, blending the two (syn. oil / non-syn. Lucas) will cause foaming. A guy did a plexiglass gear box to prove it - it looks like a milkshake in about 10 seconds. I would highly recommend fully synthetic Lucas to match the lube used, however keep in mind that part of the wonderfulness of a synthetic fluid is that a much thinner film does the same job as the old molasses and there's less drag on the parts.
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: Mr_AMC1987 on May 28, 2013, 01:37:00 PM
I have an 87 which I bought new..  It came with gear lube, in cold Ohio winters, you had to shift VERY fast, or double clutch on the upshift as the thick lube stops the transmission from spinning rather quickly.
  They came out with a service note.  change it to Dextron.

 In my workd.  no way in a manual box. 
I drained it and put in full synthetic 80W90   and it worked GREAT...

Jeff
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: eaglebeek on May 28, 2013, 02:38:59 PM
Its available thru a subscription service.

subscription to what?

As for fluid,
you folks may or may not know, Im a professional diesel mechanic. I work on tractor-trailer semi trucks. recently all truck manufacturers have gone to fully synthetic 50w in the tranny and fully synthetic70-90w in the rearends. I have seen how much better the synthetics stand up to these big engines than the old mineral based stuff. we are getting as much as a million miles out of some of these trucks, and a few still have the original drivetrain,

so my t-4 has 1/2 qt lucas, and is filled the rest of the way with fully synthetic 50w transmission lube.

I used lucas to help it to stick to the parts, (if youve ever messed with the stuff you know what I mean, its like molasas) I actually was having a odd noise in the bronco (T-18 with mineral based 85-140w) took it apart and found nothing, put it back together still made an intermittant bering squeal. just for the heak of it I drained it and dumped in 1 qt of lucas, and filled it back up with fresh 85-140.
hasnt made a sound in the 3 years since, and as soon as I did it it started shifting smoother than it ever had when I bought it almost 10 years ago, the stick almost glides into the next hole.


I'm also a diesel mechanic. My employer has also gone to a fully-synthetic 75-90 gear lube in rear ends. Our experience with partially-synthetic blends was severe foaming.

Our transmissions are all ZF HP590-series automatics and we are also using fully-synthetic transmission fluid.

The rationale was that with synthetics the change interval was extended. When it was done the vehicles had not been in service that long...so we don't have any data on life expectancy. :eagle:
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: eaglefreek on May 28, 2013, 03:57:36 PM
I have an 87 which I bought new..  It came with gear lube, in cold Ohio winters, you had to shift VERY fast, or double clutch on the upshift as the thick lube stops the transmission from spinning rather quickly.
  They came out with a service note.  change it to Dextron.

 In my workd.  no way in a manual box. 
I drained it and put in full synthetic 80W90   and it worked GREAT...

Jeff
Many manual gear boxes spec Dexron. Heck, I use it in my dirt bike transmission and also as fork oil.  ;D
Title: Re: manual tranny
Post by: Mr_AMC1987 on October 09, 2013, 03:40:49 PM
Regardless of what fluid you use, when it is very cold out, if you just shift much faster, especially from 1 to 2, it will help it to shift smoother.
The fluid slows down the gears FAST as soon as you put the clutch in..   
In -20 type weather, I found that until it warmed up a little, I would go from first to neutral, let the clutch out and spin up the trans, then put it back in and shift to second..     double clutching on the upshift.... 
Saves wear on the synchronizers.....

Jeff