at wits end, Please help. after ignition upgrade, not starting no spark

[84eaglelmz]

I rebuilt and replaced the transmission, and while it was out I did a Ignition upgrade with a pentronix flamethrower. Now when I went to finally start the car, Nothing happened. I found out the ground screw under the coil wasnt being grounded with the wire, So i Hooked that up with a wire to my negative battery terminal. and it turned over, Now Im not getting any spark, There is a full 12 volts going to the coil, I tested it on my volt meter. But when I took a spark plug out, it didnt spark.

Any Ideas? Its been almost a year since I drove this.

[mach1mustang351]

It isn't too common but brand new parts can be bad out of the box. Its been a while since I had a 258 car but is it supposed to be 12v with a resistance in the coil? If the coil is rated for say 6 volts and you have 12 to it. It could have burned up

[84eaglelmz]

I hope its not bad, is there a way to test them? I was told this coil takes 12 volts and has 3 ohm resitance in the coil. I have to ground the spark plug to see if there is spark though correct? Maybe I did it wrong.

[84eaglelmz]

i grounded the spark plug this time and still no spark. How do I know if the ICM or Coil is bad? They are both brand new parts.

[eaglebeek]

i grounded the spark plug this time and still no spark. How do I know if the ICM or Coil is bad? They are both brand new parts.

OK...start with this. Get a 12v test light. Connect the ground wire from the test light to the battery negative post or to a clean place on the chassis. Now touch the test light's probe to the negative side of the ignition coil. You may have to straighten a paper clip and poke the wire into the back of the coil connector so the wire makes contact with the terminal that clips to the coil. Now have someone crank over the engine while your test light is on the coil. Remember that everything must be connected as if you're going to start the engine.

If the light does not flash at all and you're sure you have voltage to the positive side of the coil I would suspect a faulty coil. Before you throw away the coil, be sure the wire coming off the negative side of the coil isn't shorted out.

If your test light comes on and stays on while cranking you have either a bad connection somewhere or the ignition module has failed. It's also possible the ignition module isn't getting a signal from the pickup inside the distributor. You can ohm out the distributor pickup. I don't remember the exact value it should have but iirc it should be ~50 ohms.

If the test light flashes on and off while cranking the ignition module and distributor pickup should be OK. You should also get a high-voltage spark each time the test light flashes on.

Let us know what you find and we'll go from there.

[84eaglelmz]

Ok thank you, Ill be sure to do this morning. And ill post the results asap. Where does that green wire ground to? I know the wire that fits under the solenoid does not ground anything, So i had to connect the bottom ground to the negative battery post.  Also when I keep cranking over the engine the negative battery cable starts to smoke slightly.  but it did this ever since i got the car and upgraded the Coil.

[84eaglelmz]

If there is any one who has time and can text anytime friday or saturday, I would appreciate someone doing that for me, I know my ignorance is annoying but I never grew up with this, This 84 car is 5 years older than I am.  IF not Ill stick with this forum.


Thank you

[carnuck]

Green wire by the coil goes to the negative side of the coil. Power goes to +. It won't start without that. HEI dist needs only 1 wire to run if you decide to swap.

[BenM]

Here's the basic Duraspark wiring from Ford:


The ICM breaks the orange and purple wires to adjust timing. Importantly, that ground to the distributor should be good and the coil+ needs power both at start and run. (It's factory grounded through the distributor so that the ground wire in the ignition harness doesn't accidentally have to carry the full current of the car body.)

The big round Ford connectors can develop connection problems, so you'll want to pull them all apart and clean everything out then reapply some white lithium or dialectic grease to protect them from water.

Also, make sure your condenser is not shorted out.

[84eaglelmz]

i grounded the spark plug this time and still no spark. How do I know if the ICM or Coil is bad? They are both brand new parts.

OK...start with this. Get a 12v test light. Connect the ground wire from the test light to the battery negative post or to a clean place on the chassis. Now touch the test light's probe to the negative side of the ignition coil. You may have to straighten a paper clip and poke the wire into the back of the coil connector so the wire makes contact with the terminal that clips to the coil. Now have someone crank over the engine while your test light is on the coil. Remember that everything must be connected as if you're going to start the engine.

If the light does not flash at all and you're sure you have voltage to the positive side of the coil I would suspect a faulty coil. Before you throw away the coil, be sure the wire coming off the negative side of the coil isn't shorted out.

If your test light comes on and stays on while cranking you have either a bad connection somewhere or the ignition module has failed. It's also possible the ignition module isn't getting a signal from the pickup inside the distributor. You can ohm out the distributor pickup. I don't remember the exact value it should have but iirc it should be ~50 ohms.

If the test light flashes on and off while cranking the ignition module and distributor pickup should be OK. You should also get a high-voltage spark each time the test light flashes on.

Let us know what you find and we'll go from there.

Ok heres what happened, The test light had 12 volts on the coil, as soon as I turned the key to run, I pushed the button to start the car (yes the button, The key ignition stopped working, so It now has a button to crank the engine, It did work for years before the upgrade) and the light stayed lit without flashing.

What shall I do next? 

[84eaglelmz]

Thats how I have the solenoid connected. 



Thats the ignition wire? That didnt work I believe it was never connected



Thats the ground wire that dont work




and thats the coil.

[BenM]

Ok heres what happened, The test light had 12 volts on the coil, as soon as I turned the key to run, I pushed the button to start the car (yes the button, The key ignition stopped working, so It now has a button to crank the engine, It did work for years before the upgrade) and the light stayed lit without flashing.

What shall I do next? 

The ground is for the Neutral Safety Switch, ignore it so long as the engine cranks.

Depending on how you have that button wired in... could be a number of problems so check the wiring:

 The wiring diagram says you need the following on the solenoid: Dark Green and White to the S terminal; Red and Yellow at the I terminal. I don't see two wires at each terminal, but they may be buried in the harness a little, so follow them back a foot or so and try to see them.

The manual states 6V at the coil while in run, but resistance and voltage are not so straightforward so measure the voltage across a test light from the coil + to a good ground. The load of the light will make sure the reading is true. If you don't have 6v there may be a solenoid problem according to the manual.

Verify you're getting voltage at either the I terminal or the coil + while trying to crank.

On the two-prong connector at the ignition module:
Make sure that the red wire to the Ignition module gets power while at crank and run.
Make sure the white wire at the ignition module is getting power during crank.
Both the ignition module and the computer need to see the start signal, so if that wire does not have power, starting will be difficult

On the four-prong connecter at the ignition module, make sure the black wire is grounding well.

Make sure no other wires go to the coil but the dark green and yellow. Any other wires may be shorting it out, replace the condenser on the + side of the coil.

Your coil should read between 1 and 1.5 ohms.

Next, try a spare ignition module. They go after 20 or 30 years. Clean the connectors.

[84eaglelmz]

The two wires on each solenoid are not there, because that was the wires that were from the Key switch that started the car, the key switch broke, so It was replaced with the wires to a button switch, I turn the key to on, Then push the button to start. It always started before fine.

Also I by passed the resistor wire, Because the New coil needs a full 12 volts on it Instead of the 6 that the old coil did


There is constant voltage at the coil when the key is in the run position (remember this is not "cranking" the engine, because the button does that). And when I crank the engine over, it stays a constant on. Not flashing, or anything, just a constant 12 volts, On a test light from coil - to battery -.


I tried another ICM and I got the same thing.

[BenM]

Did you check all the ICM connectors as described?

What is the resistance across the new coil?

Describe again this extra ground you added. What was its purpose?

[84eaglelmz]

How do I test resistance across the coil?

No I didnt check the ICM connectors,  The color of the wires are different. And that two prong connector is Cut, to bypass the resistor wire.

The extra ground that Im talking about is so the car cranks over, Because the neutral safety switch doesn't work.

[BenM]

You definitely need a basic multimeter...

There are two important measurements, between the + and the -, which is 1.25 ohms plus or minus for coils designed to use an internal resistor and 3 ohms for coils designed to not use an internal resistor.

The resistance between the + and the tower connector should be around 10,000 ohms, but should not be 0 and should not be infinite. It will usually vary between 800 and 1400 but may be different with a high performance coil.

The color of the wires on the module are different than the harness, I was speaking of the harness. The colors are from the '83 TSM, which ought to be correct for '84.

What wires do you have connected to where that connector should have been?

Also, use the OHM function to check continuity between the connector and the coil on the green wire. It should be less than one ohm.

Did you bypass the computer?

[BenM]

The blue box ignition is not designed for full voltage to the coil, however the red box is. The difficulty would be the red box would not work until the start circuit is reconnected, and I'm not entirely sure an aftermarket blue box would work without the start circuit. Did you use a cheap ICM or an old stock ICM?

[84eaglelmz]

You definitely need a basic multimeter...

There are two important measurements, between the + and the -, which is 1.25 ohms plus or minus for coils designed to use an internal resistor and 3 ohms for coils designed to not use an internal resistor.

The resistance between the + and the tower connector should be around 10,000 ohms, but should not be 0 and should not be infinite. It will usually vary between 800 and 1400 but may be different with a high performance coil.

The color of the wires on the module are different than the harness, I was speaking of the harness. The colors are from the '83 TSM, which ought to be correct for '84.

What wires do you have connected to where that connector should have been?

Also, use the OHM function to check continuity between the connector and the coil on the green wire. It should be less than one ohm.

Did you bypass the computer?

I have a multimeter, I just Never really did anything with Ohms before, I know what they are and how to test them, but didnt know exactly where to on the car. Now I do   

Ill look at the harness tomorrow, I must of been looking at the ICM wires.


The two prong connector, Has two wires the yellow wire from the Ignition switch, Is cut and spliced directly to the coil, Because thats what it was telling me to do in the MIU upgrade.  But maybe I did that wrong, now as I go back and look at the directions again.

what do you mean by red box and blue box?

And IDK if the computer is bypassed or not. i bought the car two years ago.

[84eaglelmz]

Instead of splicing that wire into the yellow wire. I CUT that wire, so maybe now my ICM is not getting any power. ILL have to check that out.

[BenM]

There are around a half dozen DuraSpark ICMs. They are identified by the color of their grommet where the wires meet the case as well as part numbers.

There are at least Black, Green, Blue, Red, and two Yellows. They all (may) have slightly different connectors. One version of the Yellow box had three connectors.

AMC used the three-connector Yellow box in 1982, all other years used the Blue box.

Ford used a red box on CA cars and some others for many years. It used a coil without a resistor to reduce the chance of misfire, it could produce a hotter spark. It achieved this with a change to its internal electronics where it measured coil saturation and could limit current rather than using a resistor wire to limit current to the coil. (Notice I didn't mention Voltage anywhere.)

The Red box included a safety feature, if the engine stalled out the box would shut down until it received a start signal. This way the engine couldn't fire up if it were accidentally left in Run.

The Blue box didn't initially include this feature, but I can make no promises it wasn't included in later part numbers, nor can I say that any aftermarket box doesn't do this. Ford did make changes to parts as they were being made and changed part numbers slightly to reflect this.

In any case no stock vehicle would ever care and few would consider this a design flaw.

Incidentally, the yellow box used the third connector to allow the computer to retard spark instead of the later method of the computer pretending to be the distributor and sending the timing signal to the ICM. If that third connector is shorted it should act just like a Blue box.

[BenM]

If the computer is controlling the spark, you have to use manifold vacuum or the Eagle will not idle properly. If the computer is not you need ported vacuum.

The easy way to check is to look down the carburetor throat and turn the ignition from off to run. You should see the stepper initialize.

[84eaglelmz]

Wow, thanks for all that information about ICMs, I just bought a cheap one from autozone. Idk what it is off the top of my head, Ill check. Ill check about that computer as well, The car always Idled funny, I used the screw that keeps the car from "dieseling" to keep a steady idle, I do not think the computer does anything, Because im pretty sure the jets, stay full rich at all times. Ill take pics of that was well, theres vaccuum hoses plugged with screws and what not on that.  But granted the car was drove from florida to California to NY before I bought it. so It couldnt be TO bad.

[84eaglelmz]

ITS ALIVE!!! that was it. that wire I cut and not spliced! thank you so much for making me think about what I was doing! It started right up and ran perfect! I dont even think the timing needs adjusting!

Now All I have to do is line that stupid shifter up so Park is on P and Reverse Is on R and so on. Reverse is on P ATM.

[eaglebeek]

ITS ALIVE!!! that was it. that wire I cut and not spliced! thank you so much for making me think about what I was doing! It started right up and ran perfect! I dont even think the timing needs adjusting!

Now All I have to do is line that stupid shifter up so Park is on P and Reverse Is on R and so on. Reverse is on P ATM.

Good job

[vangremlin]

Great news!

[BenM]

Good to hear.

[84eaglelmz]

One more thing, its off topic, but Starting a whole new topic for this makes no sense.

I filled up the tranny with fluid, now how the heck do you tell how much fluid is in there. When I drop the dipstick in and take it back out, it seems like its "wet" but there isnt a "line" of fluid like the oil. it looks almost clear on the dip stick. Ill grab a pic of it if you dont believe me.   

[mudkicker715]

Put it on a paper towel to get a measurement of sorts

[greymarooneightytwo]

I recently ran into an issue where I couldn't go into park because, I thought, that the shift linkage was misaligned somewhere... Turns out  the cable that runs from the button on the shifter and downward was so badly worn and stretched that it was no longer lifting the little stopper block high enough to get past the "r" notch.... might check that out as well.

[84eaglelmz]

my shifter needs a complete overhaul anyways, It doesnt click anymore, it just slides. Its working for now, but I have to make sure its fully in gear.

[Jurjen]

You have to let the engine idle and then check the oil level, there should be an indicator saying full / add on the stick.
The dipsticks are prone to breaking. Then the lower part will break off, hence no marks.
A new dipstick can be found at www.ramblerparts.com