Rust - how bad is too bad?

[MudPuppy]

I would like to know what you would think about this.
The more I look at it and think about it, the more I think I might be in over my head.
I was thinking of (after sanding and cutting of course) welding in some new plates for the floor.
Is that a good long term idea or would I just be wasting my time?
Or is there a better long term idea? I prefer to do it once and  do it right and never have to worry about it again.


All blue area's is a tarp put under the car and are all the way thru.
All spots are shown with an arrow.

We will start with the driver side:




Now to the passenger side:
All these are right in the middle of the floor.

Where my finger is and right above (arrows on the left in the pic) are all the way thru the floor but there is a rail there that looks like it hasn't went thru (hopefully).

This one is right under the dash (firewall?):


And these look way too round to be caused by rust. Plus there is no rust.
Are these factory drain holes or something?
These are on the passenger side near the seat.

[mudkicker715]

Body floorboard is fixable. Hows the so called frame?

[MudPuppy]

Rockers and everything of course has surface rust but nothing all the way thru. Picked at the rail thru the floorboard and it didn't get any worse. But I need to do some crawling and harder poking on the rail to see if it crumbles. I have been a little afraid to find out. I really hope it's not.

[Canoe]

Yes, the round holes are drain holes.

Excellent candidate for sheet metal bolted in with construction adhesive. (http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36511.msg294015#msg294015)

Mine was so far gone, I had to take it completely out.
You could use lighter sheet metal on top of the existing floor. Use big washers below.

Very strong. Easy to do. Doesn't require rust free metal to weld to. Doesn't heat the metal and change the metallurgy and risk making the metal surrounding the weld brittle.
Bolts are as strong as spot welds. Additional strength from using construction adhesive instead of seal sealer. Very sell sealed.
USE GLOVES when using the construction adhesive. A PITA to get off. If it cures before you get it off, it will stick to your hands until the skin comes off.

with old floor taken out


replacement sheet metal floor - way thick overkill


bolted in place as test (before final assembly with the construction adhesive all over everything)
(an additional piece was bolted in over the exposed frame member)
Mine was not a stock rocker, so I had access to the other side of the 1/8" bar on the left side; for stock rockers, use large rivets there.
Note the sheet metal with the rubber grommet and emergency brake cable going through. This plate was attached in it's correction position with CA, bolts & rivets (same as repair in next photo)


closeup of older repair: sheetmetal riveted in place with construction adhesive
note hole for seat rail mount

[MudPuppy]

Hmm, Canoe I like your idea. So much easier than what I had in mind. I tend to over-think and complicate things.


Has anyone tried "Klean-Strip's Rust Converter"?
Any luck with it? Or complaints?

I have some of this Klean-Strip, Dupli-Color Undercoat & Bondo-Hair on hand from when I was going to restore a horse trailer. Sold the trailer and still have all of this stuff. Didn't really care about the horse trailer was just going to get it functioning properly but with a car it's a different story... I want to do it only once and do it right.

The Bondo-Hair states "For repair of holes and rustouts up to 1". Twice as strong as body filler. Waterproof."
Would it be a good idea to clean up the smaller holes, fill it with this Bondo-Hair then weld or bolt a steel plate to it?

Was thinking use the Klean-Strip Rust Converter around the holes, then Bondo-Hair to fill the smaller holes, weld or bolt new plates in, then use the Duplicolor Undercoat on the whole floor board...then carpet.

Just trying to mash some heads together on this idea and whether or not it's a good one.

[mudkicker715]

If using bondo get both sides clean

[rollguy]

If using bondo get both sides clean

Yes, and weld BEFORE bondo, not after.

[Canoe]

... Would it be a good idea to clean up the smaller holes, fill it with this Bondo-Hair then weld or bolt a steel plate to it?

Was thinking use the Klean-Strip Rust Converter around the holes, then Bondo-Hair to fill the smaller holes, weld or bolt new plates in, then use the Duplicolor Undercoat on the whole floor board...then carpet.
...

ditto on welding: you can't weld close to bondo or anything other than metal

Waste of time and money. Will not last if you're in a high rust region. Any left over rust will contaminate the new metal, and continue rusting existing. Will work as a delaying action, but that's a lot of work and cost for a delaying action.
Rusted metal needs to be either completely cut out and any remaining rust, micro-rust or rust-dust completely removed. OR, rusted metal needs to be completely sealed and contained - Penetrol and undercoating.

• Remove any rust scale (cannot seal through layers of scale - scale will continue rusting metal away until there's no metal left, just scale). Remaining metal/rust must be dry. I've used a propane torch to speed this up (watch out for nearby wires and don't get it too hot)
• Penetrol
• Let dry (up to a week to fully cure)
• Determine amount of new metal you need to add (gauge, inside, outside or both), cut and shape. As you are not welding, you can use galvanized.
• Dry fit, with bolts and additional holes for any needed rivets
• Lather with construction adhesive and assemble
• Once CA is dry, Penetrol the seams and any uncoated metal, or just nuke the whole area - it's very low cost and you don't want to visit this repair again
• Let dry (up to a week to fully cure)
• Further recommend: Waxoyl Hardbody Undercoating underneath; and Waxoyl Rust Inhibitor inside on the floor
• Then sound-proofing matting and your carpet

[MudPuppy]

I am in Arkansas, don't think we're technically in the rust belt. Though we do have heat and humidity during summer months.
But still want to ward of any present and future rust.

I was looking at waxoyl online but all I can seem to find are the places that do it for you (of course all are on the east coast and up north).
Can you buy it elsewhere?
And what are the steps to applying waxoyl?
Any special tools or can it be brushed on?

Penetrol looks to easier to come by, I have only found the stuff they say is for wood. And looks like the stuff for wood is what everyone is using for rust.

I don't have anything to bend my replacement metal plates, though the only one that will need the bending is the holes on the driver side near the frame.

So new set of plans I guess:

- grind and sand all rusted area's
- cut out what metal/rust can't be brought down to bare clean metal
- blow out all dirt and debris
- penetrol everything
- put new metal in (either bolted and CA or welded)
- penetrol all new metal & seams
- waxoyl top and bottom
- possibly paint or rhino-line



Any particular kind of construction adhesive?
In case I decide to weld instead of bolt - is it safe to weld near dry penetrol?
Is penetrol clear when it is dry?
Now I am starting to think I might just sand/grind down the whole cab floor and apply penetrol.

[Canoe]

... I was looking at waxoyl online but all I can seem to find are the places that do it for you... Can you buy it elsewhere?...
Penetrol looks to easier to come by, I have only found the stuff they say is for wood. And looks like the stuff for wood is what everyone is using for rust...

search amceaglenest
sources given

... Any particular kind of construction adhesive?...

try the link I provided in the post with the photos

... Is penetrol clear when it is dry?...

Yes.

... In case I decide to weld instead of bolt - is it safe to weld near dry penetrol? ...

No.
You weld metal.
Everything on the metal that will be welded or heated to a high degree has to be ground off before you weld.

How are you going to prevent oxygen getting into the metal (which will accelerate any future rusting) when you weld?
How are you going to avoid blowing (melting) holes through the existing sheet metal when you weld?
How are you going to prevent the metal surrounding the welds from becoming brittle?
How are you going to prevent the weld vs. new sheet metal vs. original sheet metals from rusting at the welds due to dissimilar metals?

There are reasons for using a no-weld solution.

So new set of plans I guess:
- grind and sand all rusted area's
- cut out what metal/rust can't be brought down to bare clean metal
- blow out all dirt and debris
- penetrol everything
- put new metal in (either bolted and CA or welded)
- penetrol all new metal & seams
- waxoyl top and bottom
- possibly paint or rhino-line

Steps were provided in prior post.

...Now I am starting to think I might just sand/grind down the whole cab floor and apply penetrol....

O.K., good idea, except for wasting your time sanding and grinding. Just remove scale and vacuum/blow debris (vacuum keeps the rest of the car clean of that debris).

In the photos of my floor pan, I removed what remained of the floor in that area, because it was already 80% hole. That hole was how I got inside to get the keys out of the ignition when I locked them in. Yours is no where near that bad. Unless you have a way to bend a pan like I used, leave the existing floor alone, except for removing scale and nuking it with Penetrol.
The existing floor gives you something to bolt to (using large washers). New pan, bolts & washers are covered in the CA. And then Penetrol over all that once the CA is dry.

Note in prior post that one type of Waxoyl is used inside and another outside.

[Canoe]

Waxoyl, Penetrol

http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=36312.msg291474#msg291474

http://forums.amceaglenest.com/index.php?topic=15595.msg290954#msg290954


Odd. The nest's search says there's no results for "penetrol", did I mean to search for petrol?

[MudPuppy]

Went and got  a few materials today - found the Penetrol, got my metal plates, bolts, washers and nuts. Couldn't find LePage "PL Premium" Construction Adhesive you were talking about, next (hopefully) best and closest thing I found was Loctite PL Premium Construction Adhesive (polyurethane). Is this a good CA?

[Canoe]

... Couldn't find LePage "PL Premium" Construction Adhesive you were talking about, next (hopefully) best and closest thing I found was Loctite PL Premium Construction Adhesive (polyurethane). Is this a good CA?

I haven't used that one, but from what I can find online, I'd expect it to be equivalent.
Use gloves. Do not wipe your eyes.

[Alcology]

I'm going to come from the other side of this.  Weld in new metal.  If you can't weld, just find someone that can.  Your rust isn't that bad at all.  Just make sure to cut out all the rusty metal in the floor.  As to address Canoe's issues

How are you going to prevent oxygen getting into the metal (which will accelerate any future rusting) when you weld?
Paint it.  On the underside, either paint it, or use the waxoyl/penetrol solution that Canoe uses.

How are you going to avoid blowing (melting) holes through the existing sheet metal when you weld?
If you set the voltage and current correctly to the thickness of the metal you are welding, this won't be an issue.

How are you going to prevent the metal surrounding the welds from becoming brittle?
Cut the metal appropriately so that you are welding good metal to good metal and then paint or rustproof.

How are you going to prevent the weld vs. new sheet metal vs. original sheet metals from rusting at the welds due to dissimilar metals?
??  Dissimilar metals?  If it's steel it's steel.  Paint it or rustproof it underneath. 

If you bolt it, you leave room for a lot of future problems.

[captspillane]

That rust isn't that bad at all. Welding in new metal is not necessary. 

I would wire wheel the metal to bare clean metal, apply rust converter to chemically remove any lingering rust, and then use Eastwood's rust encapsulator or "Paint over Rust" type of paint. Once the remaining metal was well painted I would apply the fiberglass hair type of bondo and then sandwhich it between the floorboard and a thin gauge piece of metal bolted or riveted down. The fiberglass hair stuff sands like wood, its stronger than metal, stretches to a degree, and is waterproof. Its highly superior to regular bondo and pretty reliable if you rivet in metal behind it. I use rivets because bolts are noticeable under the carpet. The piece isn't structural, its really just establishing a smooth surface above the repair.

My floors were considerably worse than those. I repaired them this way eight years ago and drove the car about 100,000 miles in PA road salt. They're fine. I'll eventually cut the old junk out and weld in new metal, but it will be at least ten years from now before that happens.

[Canoe]

I'm going to come from the other side of this.  Weld in new metal.  If you can't weld, just find someone that can.  Your rust isn't that bad at all.  Just make sure to cut out all the rusty metal in the floor.  As to address Canoe's issues
How are you going to prevent oxygen getting into the metal (which will accelerate any future rusting) when you weld?
Paint it.  On the underside, either paint it, or use the waxoyl/penetrol solution that Canoe uses.
How are you going to avoid blowing (melting) holes through the existing sheet metal when you weld?
If you set the voltage and current correctly to the thickness of the metal you are welding, this won't be an issue.
How are you going to prevent the metal surrounding the welds from becoming brittle?
Cut the metal appropriately so that you are welding good metal to good metal and then paint or rustproof.
How are you going to prevent the weld vs. new sheet metal vs. original sheet metals from rusting at the welds due to dissimilar metals?
??  Dissimilar metals?  If it's steel it's steel.  Paint it or rustproof it underneath. 
If you bolt it, you leave room for a lot of future problems.

There's different types of welding. With some, you have some control, with others much less.
* Painting after you've welding doesn't stop O2 getting to the material while it's hot.
* Heat form welding changes the metallurgy. Unless someone really knows what they're doing, and has the right type of equipment, the surrounding "good" metal becomes brittle.
* steel isn't steel: there are hundred's of types. Your weld rod/wire isn't the same type as your existing metal nor what you add. Why do you think welding fixes rust at the welds? It isn't magic.
* Bolt it? It's as strong as the spot weld, without the issues introduced by welding.
This composite style repair allows you to sidestep all of the negatives possible from welding (ignoring toasting wires or other errors while welding).

[Alcology]

Wow, I didn't mean to pee in your cheerios. 

There's different types of welding. With some, you have some control, with others much less.
So choose the right kind.

* Painting after you've welding doesn't stop O2 getting to the material while it's hot.
No it doesn't.  That's why when it gets cool you prep it and paint it. 

* Heat form welding changes the metallurgy. Unless someone really knows what they're doing, and has the right type of equipment, the surrounding "good" metal becomes brittle.
So find someone who knows what they are doing. 


* steel isn't steel: there are hundred's of types. Your weld rod/wire isn't the same type as your existing metal nor what you add. Why do you think welding fixes rust at the welds? It isn't magic.
It doesn't need to be the exact same.  Someone on here welded in a section of computer case, steel will work with steel for the most part.  And yes, rust does get in there.  That's why you prep it after you weld.


* Bolt it? It's as strong as the spot weld, without the issues introduced by welding.
This composite style repair allows you to sidestep all of the negatives possible from welding (ignoring toasting wires or other errors while welding).
If the floor is already exposed, why not just weld it?  Then you don't have to worry about it.  If you were to put in new steel on the floor, it won't be done with spot welds.  You need to seal it up along the edges.  And any errors can be accounted for by disconnecting the battery and MCU and making sure the arc isn't going to traveling all over your car by setting the electrodes in the right spot. 

I'm not saying your method is wrong, but I am saying that welding might be the better option in this case. 

[Canoe]

Wow, I didn't mean to pee in your cheerios. 

There's different types of welding. With some, you have some control, with others much less.
So choose the right kind.

* Painting after you've welding doesn't stop O2 getting to the material while it's hot.
No it doesn't.  That's why when it gets cool you prep it and paint it. 

* Heat form welding changes the metallurgy. Unless someone really knows what they're doing, and has the right type of equipment, the surrounding "good" metal becomes brittle.
So find someone who knows what they are doing. 

* steel isn't steel: there are hundred's of types. Your weld rod/wire isn't the same type as your existing metal nor what you add. Why do you think welding fixes rust at the welds? It isn't magic.
It doesn't need to be the exact same.  Someone on here welded in a section of computer case, steel will work with steel for the most part.  And yes, rust does get in there.  That's why you prep it after you weld.

* Bolt it? It's as strong as the spot weld, without the issues introduced by welding.
This composite style repair allows you to sidestep all of the negatives possible from welding (ignoring toasting wires or other errors while welding).
If the floor is already exposed, why not just weld it?  Then you don't have to worry about it.  If you were to put in new steel on the floor, it won't be done with spot welds.  You need to seal it up along the edges.  And any errors can be accounted for by disconnecting the battery and MCU and making sure the arc isn't going to traveling all over your car by setting the electrodes in the right spot. 
I'm not saying your method is wrong, but I am saying that welding might be the better option in this case. 

You're obviously unaware of what takes place with welding.
Prepping it and painting it is very nice and stops additional O2 from getting in as long as the seal remains intact. That doesn't stop the oxidation of the weld from the O2 absorbed while welding, further aided by the electron flow of the dissimilar materials. You're closing the barn door too late. And you've already got rust in there; did you do a perfect job of removing it?
Welding does not mean you don't have to worry about it. There's a lot to worry about, and the chance of getting someone who knows and will do a good job is very very slim. Disconnecting the battery doesn't stop the heat from toasting/melting things. Every noted how many stories about someone going and buying a welder, welding and they've melted something or started a fire. Or their pro welder didn't know something was somewhere in their car and did the same.
So how is a novice going to navigate finding a pro who will do an actually informed technically correct job of welding? Pretty slim. And it costs. And you've still got a weld that will rust.
I don't want a repair you're going to have to revisit down the road.

Or you can avoid all of that, and with a low cost method, and you can DIY.

[jim]

Well, MudPuppy, has your question been answered?

[MudPuppy]

Well, yes and no lol. Might just be a bit more confused as to which is best for the long term. Everyone has valid points.

Added a poll just to see.
Like I said - I want this (whatever is done) to be as long term as possible. I do not want to re-visit this anytime soon or if ever (would be nice).
I wouldn't be doing the welding myself. Since I just got a welder and haven't even had a chance to play with it yet, I would not trust myself tackling this. So I would have to find someone to do it. I really need to talk to my cousin, he has his own shop and races his own stock car on the side and see how well his welding capabilities are if I went this route.
Materials I already have on hand - 5/16 stainless steel bolts and nuts, galvanized washers, 24 gauge steel, Bondo-Hair, Penetrol, Klean-Strip's Rust Converter, a few cans of Duplicolor Undercoat spray.

[Alcology]

Yikes, sorry to turn your thread into a pit of nasty.  Good luck with your rust problem, at least you have options.

[MudPuppy]

No worries man. Just glad to see everyone replying and giving me honest options and the how-to steps since this is my first time messing with something like this.
And glad to see that everyone thinks my rust isn't bad lol, I was pretty scared and the more I looked and thought about it the more I worried. So I am relieved to see that it isn't a total loss.

[rollguy]

Although I feel that I am a very competent welder and have very good equipment,  I would still bolt and construction adhesive the metal if it were my car (we have no such thing as rust around here, so no rust repair experience).  I am a total DIYer, and always like to take the easiest route.  Of the two options, the easiest DIY one would be the bolt on, rather than the weld on.   I would also probably use rivets instead of bolts, or at least use rivets to hold the metal on until all the holes are drilled for bolts.  5/16 bolts are a little large in my mind, and I would think more smaller bolts would be better than fewer larger ones.  As far as construction adhesive, polyurethane is the best.  We have the PL around here, but any brand will work.  Also be aware that the only thing that will take Polyurethane construction adhesive out of your cloths, is a pair of scissors!   Being in construction, I have experience with this stuff. 

[MudPuppy]

A lot of y'all are talking about rivets...what kind of rivets (size, and which metal type of rivet is best for this application - figure either stainless steel or mild steel, etc.) and rivet gun (or whatever they are called) do y'all use?
I have a small rivet punch (a handheld thing with the 360 head on it) that I tried to rivet aluminum trim back onto a horse trailer with and it was too weak (or maybe it was me that was too weak lol) to even do that.

[rollguy]

I use "Pop" rivets that are for a 3/16 hole.  They will hold about 1/2" (grip range).   Aluminum would probably be best.   Both the rivets and gun can be bought from most any hardware store or home center.