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Author Topic: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!  (Read 7211 times)

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Offline djdelee421

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Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« on: July 17, 2018, 03:11:35 PM »
I finished my very first rebuil on a 258 it's got new everything block was magna fluxed bored .030 over and honed. Machine shop rebuilt head It started tapping during my break in 2k rpm for 20 mins. Id appreciate all the help I can get. I'd like to get some opinions on the sound before I pull the motor apart.  :banghead:
https://youtu.be/4bDBjcIzY2c
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2018, 07:58:10 PM »
Well I figured out where I fudged up. I didn't prime my oil pump and then I ran it at 2k for 20 mins I think I smoked the cam but what other damage could there be?? Thanks for any advice
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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2018, 11:19:33 PM »
Its hard to tell. Did you use the prelube jelly on the cam?  There is somthing i remember about throwing a 7120 head on my 84 with a 94 4.o that i stroked out. The lifters were different sized between the 2. I also used the cam from the 94 ho. I am just saying more info please



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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2018, 11:41:28 PM »
I don't know exactly what head I have but I know it's from an 81 I bought the head from my machine shop they said it would fit my block is the original 83 it's a stock cam crank just .030 over and I used assembly lube on lobes and journals so I'm just trying to find out how bad I screwed up not priming the oil pump I also used Lucas zddp in the oil. I also just removed my dizzy and turned the oil pump with a drill and it pumped oil all the way to the rockers like it should. I don't have an oil pressure guage lol another newb mistake but the oil still looks clean so idk how bad I goofed.
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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 12:05:11 AM »
Ok, it sounds like you are original to 83 year motor. It to me sounds like a valve train thing. In your utube. Your certain its tight? Most likely you are? Any issues firing it up, like bad backfires, or wrong id of number 1 on the dissy. I am maybe thinking a bent pushrod or all cause of a bad firing order. Idk that is cheaper. How hard to fire it up after the build? Is it harder to start now than the first time? I have built many 258's but its been years since i have done so.



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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2018, 12:23:26 AM »
I just noticed you have a aluminum valve cover from a jeep maybe. Why? That will not fit a 81 or 83 amc 258.  Different bolt patterns on the valve cover iirc. Maybe i am wrong, maybe i seen wrong? But that dont look right to me. Meaning you might have a head that needs different lifters. Idk. But i see somthing wrong in that split second of viewing your head.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 12:27:21 AM by mudkicker715 »



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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 12:37:58 AM »
I was actually able to pause it to see your valve cover, you have one from an 87 to who knows when. So i maybe go back to what head do you have. I could always be wrong but that is not a valve cover for your year motor. Meaning you have a head for a newer motor, and maybe you have short lifters? Anyway thats my diagnosis from your video. I am almost certain your hed is 87 and up.



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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 12:43:11 AM »
I will take pictures of my head with the valve cover off I'm just assuming the head is off of an 81 something because there is a stamp that says 81 under valve cover I bought the valve cover online so Idk what it's off of but the machine shop bought all my lifters and said everything is a match I'm guessing that I should just go ahead and pull the head and see what's going on
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 12:44:39 AM »
I also torqued everything to spec and have re checked and everything is tight on the head
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 12:58:30 AM »
Last time I fired it when I took that video it fired right up. First time I went to fire it I was 180 degrees off on the dizzy and when I switched the wires around it fired right up started holding it at 2k and bout 5 mins in the tapping started but I didn't think it was that bad so I kept goin
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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 07:44:04 AM »
hi, that is the correct valve cover for 81-86 258s. Its an aftermarket type sold by the Jeep places like 4wd hdwr, etc. I have two of them. good luck, gz

Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2018, 01:07:29 PM »
I can never seem to get pictures to work but I realized that the machine shop decked my block could this mean my pushrods are too long? Also I got the casting number for my head is 3235480 and from what I read online that is a head from a jeep? Could that be the issue?
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2018, 10:58:00 PM »
Did you check lifter preload when assembling it? That's when you would have known if the pushrod length was correct. I would remove the valve cover and check for a bent pushrod as mentioned. I did a cam change on my dad's Oldsmobile 307 about a year ago and when priming the oil pump with a drill, I had him in the car looking at the oil pressure gauge and it took quite a while to build pressure even though a lot of oil was getting up to the heads. I thought I had screwed something up, but it just took like 3-4 minutes. Also, I didn't do the 2k RPM thing. I somehow stumbled on to the link below and used 5W30 Valvoline Full Synthetic High Mileage with MaxLife and didn't use any zinc additive for break in. That was a year ago and the car is still running great.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 10:59:56 PM by eaglefreek »
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 01:14:57 AM »
Didn't know anything about pre load but I will check for bent push rods and if they are bent do I replace them with shorter ones or something? That would be great if it was that easy.
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2018, 09:28:23 AM »
You'll have to search the net for checking lifter preload and read a few different sources. It took me a bit to figure it out, but it's pretty basic. IN my opinion it's tougher on the 250 since the lifters are in the block and you can't see them. On a V8, with the manifold removed, you can see when the lifter plunger starts to move.
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2018, 11:02:13 AM »
I'll check the preload. I'm curious if it's my oil pump making the tap but when I turned it with the drill it sounded smooth I just think the tap sounded somewhere around the oil filter so I'm not sure.
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2018, 02:12:14 PM »
Well I don't have anything to measure thousandths of an inch with to check preload but my old pushrods are a 16th inch shorter then my new ones however i can spin my pushrods in there now with ease when the valve is closed. So basically I'm still 100 percent lost and I'm about ready to pull the whole engine again I don't want to get new lifters and push rods and put it all back together again just to find out it's the cam and at the same time I don't want to pull the motor and put a new cam in it just to find out it's a lifter or a pushrod. Thanks again for all the help guys maybe motor building is just not for me 
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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2018, 08:34:53 PM »
I know its disheartening. Anyway. Run it for a bit without the valve cover its messy, but cleanup is easier than pulling it. Maybe it will be obvious than? I hope anyway.



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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2018, 01:48:03 PM »
I took some time to think and I'm pretty sure it's something to do with lifters buddy of mine said he messed up the priming of the oil pump on a rebuilt ford 302 and he said his lifters were all bad due to running dry for a few minutes. And in the video you can kinda see where I put the camera was right behind the oil filter and to me it sounds like is coms from right above the cam but when I turn the motor over by hand with cover off all the valves go down and none of my rods are bent so I'm thinking it's a lifter that is internally stuck? So I'm gonna go ahead and pull the head when I get a chance pull all the lifters and inspect them and look down at the cam lobes and that should give me my answer. I will post on the topic again when I do that and maybe post another video. Thanks guys
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 08:56:36 PM »
Here's a link to a new video I have now replaced lifters and went to shorter pushrods and no avail still taps even changed to rotella 15w40 I used the zinc additive too that didn't help I put an OP gauge in and at idle she's 40-50 psi. So thanks for any help guys. Let me know
https://youtu.be/PF0xWPafeVA
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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2018, 10:35:17 PM »
Are the rockers tight, meaning if you wiggle them do they move much. Should be tight. Also are the rods tight at all parts of rotation of the motor? I am thinking the noise is louder from below, but maybe its just you getting closer.  I would personally say longer pushrods, not shorter. I also would like to know when the rockers get tight (if at all). Torque spec is low on those ( i could throw a incorrect number out at say 35psi), but technically if they are tight they should not rattle. Is oil coming up the rods?



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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2018, 10:50:06 PM »
I used a torque wrench on the rocker arms to spec 19 ft pounds they were pretty easy to thread down. It's all new parts on the head rocker arms and bridges. What makes you say longer pushrods? And yes I'm getting oil all the way up on the rocker arms. When I had the head off the valves looked good and I could push each one down.
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Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2018, 11:27:34 PM »
Is 19lb spec? I forget.       I think longer cause even though thr rocker is torqued how is the pushrod? Is it tight on all cycles of the cam? Meaning does the pushrod ever get to a loose point. Even without hydro push from oil it should be tight. An old motor will spin a pushrod around a bit by hand easily. A new motor should have tight pushrods. Everything on a new motor should be tight, meaning the starter should struggle a bit till its broke in.



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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2018, 12:46:08 PM »
19 ft lbs is spec everywhere I looked so if I could spin my pushrods even the first set that was in they were too short? Cuz I could turn the ones that were down and I couldn't spin the ones that were up. I also noticed my power is down. I bought a leak down test kit and they don't have threads that reach my spark plug holes  :banghead:. I've still been working on figuring out how to do the lifter preload.
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Online amcfool1

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2018, 12:59:12 PM »
hi, technically there is NO lifter preload spec. You have hydraulic lifters, so if your lifters/pushrods/rockers are factory, all should be well. A couple of thousands shave to straighten head should not alter anything. good luck, gz

Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2018, 04:06:23 PM »
It's something to do with the head the machine shop sold me I think it's from an 81 jeep cj I don't know if that makes anything different
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Offline mo.eagles

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2018, 05:46:02 PM »
Have you checked your distributor? Could it be making the noise?
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2018, 06:14:10 PM »
Didn't know a dist could make that noise. How would I check it?
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2018, 07:09:19 PM »
I just went with a stethoscope and isolated the tap a bit more. It sounds like it's coming from behind the distributor right under #5 and #6 spark plug holes on the block. I also continue to get the noise below the cam on the block but it is quieter
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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2018, 09:00:16 PM »
Sounds like a lifter or rod.

When you put the rockers and whatnot on, you have to check clearances and preload - you can't just assume they'll work, and you need to check all 12 individually when you build.

Rather than risk it, just tear it down and re-check.

Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2018, 09:19:34 PM »
How do I check preload? I just thought you torque it to spec and your done. Are you saying that I could have a couple pushrods the wrong size and some are okay?
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 10:03:59 PM »
hi, technically there is NO lifter preload spec. You have hydraulic lifters, so if your lifters/pushrods/rockers are factory, all should be well. A couple of thousands shave to straighten head should not alter anything. good luck, gz

Lifter preload is a thing and needs to be checked especially when  an engine is rebuilt and/or parts are mixed from different engines and machine work has been done. I replaced a cam in my dad's Oldsmobile about a year ago and since it doesn't have adjustable rockers just lie the 258, I had to check lifter preload to make sure I got the right pushrods. I bought a lifter and disassembled it and reoved the spring.. I then found some washers that fit in the lifter that gave me the desired preload figure. I think I shot for .040. Here's an article explaining lifter preload
http://www.laneautomotive.com/PumpItUp.htm
1986 AMC Eagle Wagon 4.2L/4.0L head, AW4,NP242, Chrysler 8.25" rear.
1981 AMC Eagle Wagon As Seen On TV  Lost In Transmission


 

"I know he'd be a poorer man, if he never saw an eagle fly,
Rocky mountain high"  John Denver
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Offline djdelee421

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Re: Just rebuilt 258 now it's tapping help!
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 10:47:05 PM »
Wow after reading that I'm thinking that I need longer pushrods and not shorter. Somewhere I read to check the pre load you make a mark on a pushrod at tdc and then loosen the rocker all the way make another mark and between them is the pre load. Am I correct.
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