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Author Topic: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project  (Read 25328 times)

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Offline blk-majik

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Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« on: September 08, 2011, 12:15:22 AM »
Long time no see, fellow nesters  :occasion14: I posted an intro last Winter, but I can't find the posts, so I'll start again. If anyone gets a feeling of deja-vu, that would be why

I'm a motor sports enthusiast from the DC/MD/VA metro area. While I'm only 30, my family has owned AMCs and Jeeps as long as I can remember. The first car I was ever in was an 1978 Spirit ;) AMC was long gone by the time I was able to drive, so I missed the fun for the most part.

I'm an amateur racing driver and auto mechanic hobbiest. I compete in drag racing, road course racing, auto cross and karting. My daily driver and track car is a 2008 Mitsubishi Evolution X GSR. It's an AWD turbo 4cyl with about 345whp, 7500 RPM redline, and weighing in around 3600lbs. While its a blast to drive, it's not quite the world's most affordable racing platform, especially when things go wrong. Here's an example of what I mean  :-[

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFF8kPAn-eI

Anyway, about the Eagle... There's a couple nation-wide racing series that exist solely to let people have fun competing on the track without the richest guy always winning. One is called Chump Car (a word-play on the Champ Car (now Indy Car) racing series). The other is The 24 Hours of Lemons. No, not LeMans, the racing series for posh rich french turds... Lemons. It's a joke, so please don't get your panties in a bunch about the name. The cars might be cheap, but they're anything but lemons! They're legit race-prepped production cars that just happen to be cheap.

In both series, the basic rules go like this:
Cars must be worth less than $500 PERIOD - excluding cost of safety-related stuff for obvious reasons.
 - if a car is valued over $500, the team gets 1 penalty lap for every $1 over budget... all based off judges estimates
Races are held on paved race tracks, like VIR, NJMSP, Leguna Seca, CMP, Infineon, and Eagles Canyon  :hello2:
Races last anywhere from 16 - 24 hours
Teams can have 3 to 6 drivers
The team who's car finishes the most laps wins - promotes good racing
The team who the judge's expected to do horribly, but actually does relatively well, also wins - promotes innovation and creativity
The team who just brings the coolest car also wins - promotes some pretty crazy themed cars  8)

So this winter I got a half dozen friends interested in starting a team to participate in low-buck racing. The obvious boring car choices were thrown around -- Miatas, Civics, 325i's, Mustangs, etc. Boring, done, and frowned upon due to their over-use and lack of creativity. I REALLY wanted something made by AMC, and when I found a SX4 on craigslist just a few hours away, everyone was in love with the idea! Even though the seller was asking double our budget, and it had some obvious problems, we figured we could negotiate the price and deal with the Gremlins (hehe)

The car wasn't in as good of shape as the seller suggested. The body and frame were great for our needs, and that's whats really important. It took about 10 minutes to get the thing to start up. None of the accessories really worked other than the heat and mirror adjusters. For a 30 year old car, I can't really complain, but a heads up with some of the bugs would have been nice, especially on a test drive in the rain at night. Things like windshield wipers would have been nice. And headlights. And brakes :) No wonder the seller just tossed us the keys and didn't want to ride along! Either way, it was enough for us to easily get the car for $700. Score!

It's a 3-speed automatic with the 258 motor. I think its all pretty much stock. The engine would sputter around the middle of the power band for a sec, then pick back up again. The trans would hardly shift. We got some work to do!

Here's some pictures of the car as it was when we picked it up









We trailered the car to Chadd's house, mainly because he had a garage, and got to work. We had a buddy who used to be an SAE-certified mechanic back when this car was new come over and take a look at the engine. It was only running on 5 cylinders and the vacuum line mess was... a mess :) A few hours later he cut out most of the emissions junk, got the 6th cyl back up, and tuned the carb to smooth out the revs! so far so good!

I got to work gutting the interior to prep for the roll cage. Here's the results:





Anyway, real-life hit and the project got delayed. Chadd got married... and tore his ACL. And his MCL. Kris got deployed to Afghanistan again. Jeremy was just too busy with the racing season. I was tied up buying a house. Long story short, nothing got done during the Spring/Summer.

To be continued...



Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2011, 12:34:05 AM »
As I mentioned, the car ended up sitting about all Spring/Summer. And I ended up buying a house... with a big garage :) This weekend, I took over the responsibility of housing the car. Between late Winter and now, the engine stopped firing  :'( I can't guarantee that no one's messed with it, but supposedly it hasn't been touched. Last work done on it: trans and rear diff fluid changes (which both failed... don't use the rubber pre-made gaskets! RTV ftw)

A bit of background: the battery died and needed trickled-charged to recover. With a jump, at first the car would try to crank, but would never turn over. I thought maybe it was a frozen accessory, but after about at least a dozen short attempts (<30 sec), it finally started trying to crank and the belt was spinning freely. However, it still never fired up!

I've tested the plugs with my handy spark tester and all signs indicate that it's not an ignition problem. I haven't pulled the plugs yet, but since they were working fine before, I doubt they got fouled or gapped just sitting there.

I then disconnected the fuel return line from the fuel filter, cranked it while giving a bit of gas. I ended up with a bottle full of gas. It's not a fuel supply issue.

It's getting fuel. It's getting spark. It's cranking. But it's not firing. Carb cleaner didn't help. I have no idea how to adjust the carb to play with the choke. This is my first project with a carburetor ;) Any suggestions on what to try next?

« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 12:37:37 AM by blk-majik »

Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2011, 08:55:09 AM »
Welcome back! First off, have you tried dumping a little gas down its throat to see if it will fire? When you rotate the throttle, does fuel spray into the carb? If not, disconnect the fuel line where it screws into the the fitting on the carb, then remove that fitting, that is where your needle is, it may be stuck closed (assuming you already have tried the fuel filter).
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2011, 11:09:20 AM »
Thanks shaggimo! I poured maybe a tablespoon of fuel down the throat as you suggested, and it fired right up... but only for a couple seconds :) I'll take the needle out and check it out this afternoon. Wish me luck!

Any solvants or cleaners that should be safe to help in cleaning up the pin the carb assembly?

Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2011, 12:01:22 PM »
Carb cleaner is best, needle sounds like your problem though if the fuel down the throat worked to fire it. Best bet pick up a rebuild kit for the carb at napa, they're less than $20, or better still find an upgraded carb to get rid of that carter.
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Offline GRONK

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2011, 12:18:08 PM »
blk-majik - email me: [email protected] and maybe we can work something out as far as the upgraded carb/ignition is concerned.  I'm a bartering fool and have the turn-key kits that will drop on and run awesome. 
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Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2011, 12:30:37 PM »
 :occasion14: There ya go blkmajik, that's your man to talk to, lol.
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Offline MudPuppy

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2011, 03:09:05 PM »
Not to sound like a Negative Nancy or anything... but out of curiosity, what did you do with all of the interior?
Anything (interior, exterior or what-ever) that you don't need you could post on here and possibly sell. It could help out at least a few people.  ;)
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Offline jim

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2011, 03:50:26 PM »
Is this the event where entrants can vote to have a car crushed?
I'm right 98% of the time, and I don't care about the other 3%.
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Offline Sunny

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2011, 04:38:55 PM »
What is your plans for the motor? Just out of curiosity. Maybe total lap wise, but an Eagle won't come close to winning a speed race without any serious modifications.

Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2011, 10:20:52 PM »
What is your plans for the motor? Just out of curiosity. Maybe total lap wise, but an Eagle won't come close to winning a speed race without any serious modifications.
Actually, alot of guys run stock 4 cyl vehicles. It's more of an endurance race.



Man, I wish I would have seen this when you originally got the SX4. I would have traded you a running 90 Mustang LX 5.0. Good luck with the project.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2011, 11:33:20 PM »
Not to sound like a Negative Nancy or anything... but out of curiosity, what did you do with all of the interior?
Anything (interior, exterior or what-ever) that you don't need you could post on here and possibly sell. It could help out at least a few people.  ;)

I still have it all. I'll put it up for sale sometime later. I'm still using the seats and dash, but the rest is just taking up space. If anyone wants it and can pick it up near DC, let me know. Otherwise, I don't have the time to package it for shipping atm.

Is this the event where entrants can vote to have a car crushed?

No, not at all in Chump Car. In Lemons, teams can vote for the "People's Curse" award winner, which goes to the team they most dislike. The award is only actually ever given if over 50% of the teams ALL voted for the same 'winner'. IE, one team was so horrible that everyone hates them more than anyone else. Even then, it's still very rare for their 'prize' to seriously damage the car. That's only reserved for situations where the team is made of up huge jerks (ie, getting into a physical altercation in the pits), overly aggressive such that they've  caused other cars to be damaged, or unsafe to the point where they have caused someone to get injured. In those cases.. yea, screw those guys! But usually when it get awarded at all, its because the team is a bunch of noobs who never raced and just cause all sorts of innocent problems. They usually get a dump truck full of manure on their cabin or something, then are forced to continue racing like that ;)

It's more a self-regulating mechanism to make sure racers are safe and use proper race craft than anything else. Anything damaging has only been given to over-used cars that everyone's sick of seeing people bring (E30's, Miatas, Mustangs, etc). Everyone there's a car lover and would be sick to see a rare car get damaged just for show. Hardly anyone ever brings anything made by AMC to these races, and when they do, they're usually treated like heros :) Even if they're HORRIBLE drivers (we're not), their car won't be destroyed.

What is your plans for the motor? Just out of curiosity. Maybe total lap wise, but an Eagle won't come close to winning a speed race without any serious modifications.

For now, the plan is as such:
1. Get the motor running
2. Head out on the highway
3. Look for adventure (or whatever comes my way)
4. Be wild

Seriously, all the cars are worth $500 or less. The ones that are competitive are usually given so many penalty laps for being over budget that they can't possibly win. One of the most successful teams this season is Team Petty Cash, who've been racing a Petty-Blue #43 Jeep Cherokee XJ with a 4.0.  They recently dyno'd and put down 123hp in a huge Jeep and are still kicking butt! I think we stand a good chance if we can keep the car on track. Here's a video of them doing their thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr-VDLY7P4U

If we kill the engine, we're allowed to spend some more cash getting it running again. Depending on how things play out, I'd either like to do a 4.0 head swap with a Motorcraft 2050 carb. Or maybe just a full EFI 4.0 engine swap. That's a long way off, so we'll see :) For now, I'm more worried about the auto trans holding up for 24 hours
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 11:41:14 PM by blk-majik »

Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 08:46:29 PM »
I'm still having a hard time getting this thing to start.

I've removed the hardline that goes between the carb and the fuel filter. I've run the line to a bottle and cranked it, and the bottle filled up with fuel. So there's defiantly fuel getting to the carb.

I put a plug tester on all the plugs and they're all getting power. They worked before, so I have no reason to think they've fowled while sitting for a few months.

I then removed the insert that the fuel hard-line screws into. It had a small pin, which didn't appear to be stuck. I think that's what shaggimo was referring to. It didn't seem to be stuck, but I took it out and clean the needle and fitting anyway. Still no luck :(

What should I try next?

Offline Eagleearl

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 09:26:13 PM »
Is the choke butterfly,on top of the carb, closing all the way when the engine is cold and the accelerator pushed? If not the choke control is not working properly.  Have someone hold the choke shut with a screwdriver or some thing and try starting. If it fires and makes vaccum the choke pulloff should open the choke 3/16" to 1/4" and then the choke control should slowly open the choke as the engine warms up. Check for vaccum hoses that are disconnected or cracked causing a vaccum leak. Pumping the accelerator petal should pump gas into the intake and get the engine to fire even with a vaccum leak.

Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2011, 09:04:09 AM »
Sounds like you need to pull the carb and rebuild, it's probably gummed up. Especially since if you dump a little fuel down it's throat it fires, but wont when it's line fed. When you rotate the throttle, look down into the carb (don't try to start), do you see fuel spray from the nozzles as you rotate the throttle lever? If not you may have a bad or weak accelerator pump, a rebuild kit supplies a new one, or at least new seals and spring for the current.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2011, 10:27:39 AM »
Is the choke butterfly,on top of the carb, closing all the way when the engine is cold and the accelerator pushed? If not the choke control is not working properly.  Have someone hold the choke shut with a screwdriver or some thing and try starting. If it fires and makes vaccum the choke pulloff should open the choke 3/16" to 1/4" and then the choke control should slowly open the choke as the engine warms up. Check for vaccum hoses that are disconnected or cracked causing a vaccum leak. Pumping the accelerator petal should pump gas into the intake and get the engine to fire even with a vaccum leak.

the butterfly is fully closed when the accelerator is pushed, and when it's not pushed. I put a screwdriver in it to make sure it stayed close, just to make sure (even though I can see it when starting the car). No dice :( Any particular vac lines to prioritize? We reduced a lot of the vacuum complexity, so a bunch of them are just plugged. Not really sure what's essential and what's just for emissions

Sounds like you need to pull the carb and rebuild, it's probably gummed up. Especially since if you dump a little fuel down it's throat it fires, but wont when it's line fed. When you rotate the throttle, look down into the carb (don't try to start), do you see fuel spray from the nozzles as you rotate the throttle lever? If not you may have a bad or weak accelerator pump, a rebuild kit supplies a new one, or at least new seals and spring for the current.

i think you're right. I'm not seeing/smelling any fuel when I rotate the throttle by hand. If I rebuild, it'll be a first for me. I guess I just need to man up and get to it :) I found some good guides online. Any recommended resources to make sure I do it right? and dont mess up anything else in the process?

if anyone else has any other ideas in the mean-time, I'm all ears. Thanks everyone!

Offline GRONK

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2011, 10:52:14 AM »
A rebuilt carter is still a carter.  I have some cheaper Motprcraft options and I'm open to trades if you're on a budget.  I can help you get fixed right w/o spending a lot of time on it.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2011, 10:59:16 AM »
That's something I'd like to to do, just not yet. We'll need spares of everything at the track anyway, so I want to get everything working with what I have before I start upgrading. Even if we replace it, I'd like having a working backup :) And its a good learning exercise

Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2011, 11:40:56 AM »
Here's a few resources I found that might be useful to others:

Carter BBD 1-1/4"Service Manual: http://u225.torque.net/cars/SL6/docs/BBD_Manuals.pdf
Is this the exact carb that comes with on the 258?

Here's an overview video going over how the carb works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd6ekdW2jPM

The first 4 parts of a video series showing how to rebuild this sucker, by the same guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VMk3VI7sYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01nt0m9xW_4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgGLaWSoghM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qgBfgz1rz8

If anyone can find the rest, please share :)

Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2011, 11:54:58 AM »
Honestly the carter non feedback, is probably one of the simplest carbs I've ever tinkered with/rebuilt, simpler being a snowmobile or ford 9N tractor  :rotfl:. The napa rebuild kits are dirt cheap, get a new float while you're at it, the kit will come with a nice blow up of the carb, along with a couple important adjustments that are needed. Take your time pay attention to where stuff goes and keep your work area clean, you'll be set.
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Offline Baskinator

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 04:09:06 PM »
I agree with shaggimo. I rebuilt my Carter BBD a few weeks ago (first carb I've ever rebuilt) and it was actually pretty simple. I completely disassembled it once just to see if I could do it and thoroughly cleaned it out with compressed air and carb cleaner, then did it a second time with the actual kit and a chemical dip. Considering you're building a race car, and I knew absolutely nothing about cars before this past summer, you should have no problem.

I used a Chilton's manual for reference, but the kit came with the same diagram as in the book. It also gives you all the specific measurements and adjustments needed, and provides a small ruler/straight edge for that. My kit was the GP-Sorensen from Advance Auto I believe, and it has all the necessary gaskets (plus some extra), as well as a needle and seat, check balls, and new accelerator pump.

Here are before and after pictures of my Carter. Not the best pics, but you can see that it looks a lot better.

Before:

After:


I would suggest taking lots of pictures and using little baggies to put parts in and label. If you want, I have a bunch of pictures of the innards of my Carter before I cleaned it somewhere in my album: http://s1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff479/Baskinator/
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 11:39:30 PM »
Thanks, good stuff :)

I agree with shaggimo. I rebuilt my Carter BBD a few weeks ago (first carb I've ever rebuilt) and it was actually pretty simple. I completely disassembled it once just to see if I could do it and thoroughly cleaned it out with compressed air and carb cleaner, then did it a second time with the actual kit and a chemical dip.

What did you dip it in? I think I'm going to need to do that :)

I got the ball rolling last night. I ordered a rebuilt kit from NAPA - Their Echlin brand. They also had a Mileage Plus variant, which is a Echlin sub-brand, but I've heard they're not as good, so I went all-out ;) There wasn't a list of what's included, so I also ordered a new brass float, leather accelerator pump, and needle & seat. I think I'm good to go!

The order isn't here yet, but I pulled the carb to get ready. I can't believe how gunked up it is! This weekend I'm going to pull the intake manifold as well. I'm almost tempted to just yank the entire head at this point. Maybe I'm a bit too used to more modern engines that like to be impeccably clean, but I can't believe how much gunk was in the intake system! Before I do anything stupid and make thigns worse, please someone let me know if this looks excessively dirty and is reason to worry, or if my :newbie: is just showing ;)

Here's what I started with


After pulling the carb off, I noticed a ton of built-up on the intake manifold inlet runners. I also noticed a good bit of puddled fuel in the intake manifold. Odd design with the pillars... never seen that before :) Is this puddling normal? What about the build-up?


The bottom of the throttle plates wasn't any better. Should I worry?


Here are the passages from the bottom:


And from the top:


The housing:


The IM with the gasket removed and ports blocked (like its going to help...)


Notice all the oil burnt on the exhaust manifold and getting everywhere else. I think its time to invest in an aluminum valve cover!
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:43:15 PM by blk-majik »

Offline ammachine390

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 01:35:48 AM »
The little pillars is the intake manifold heater. A lot of carbureted GM cars from the 80s used intake heaters too, but they called them Early Fuel Evaporators (EFE). Its purpose is to prevent fuel puddling when the engine is cold. Once the engine has been ran for a little bit and everything heats up, probably very little fuel actually puddles.
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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 09:11:52 AM »
 :o Man that carb is nasty, it would be a good idea to clean the intake too. You can soak the carb in a bucket of carburetor parts cleaner, (can be found at advance auto), by just removing a couple protruding parts the whole carb will fit in the bucket. I let the one off the sx4 sit in it for 5 hours, but you may need to leave it in the longer, lol. Another trick I have heard of, (have yet to try though) is soak it in antifreeze apparently it does the same cleansing, but at a far cheaper price than carb parts cleaner, (again I can't verify, because I haven't tried it yet, but will within the next couple weeks  ;D).
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Offline GRONK

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 10:45:06 AM »
I've never heard of antifreeze working.  I don't think it's corrosive enough.  I have personally used kerosene with success but nothing will beat a gallon of carb cleaner.  It's reusable and comes w/ a basket so I recommend the $$$ route.  It will be better and cheaper in the long run.  I also recomend a good media blast session with a mild glass bead.  That caretr bbd will look brand new again.

Of course you will need compressed air etc......
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2011, 11:39:01 AM »
Good call on blasting. I'll obviously have to break everything down pretty well to blast it, but are there any parts that should NOT be blasted? If not, I'll just go to town on anything that isn't shiny :)

I have a decent compressor, but don't have my own blasting gun and no longer have access to a cabinet. Is a cheap-o harbor freight gun good enough, or is this one of those times where quality makes a difference?

Seeing as how much stuff could beninfit from a good abrasive beating, I'll work on building something like this, but maybe a bit bigger so it can hold the entire head if needed. Seems like a good investment anyway


Offline priya

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2011, 12:11:59 PM »
I have a decent compressor, but don't have my own blasting gun and no longer have access to a cabinet. Is a cheap-o harbor freight gun good enough, or is this one of those times where quality makes a difference?

I've used a variety of siphon type blasters and been greatly frustrated by their poor performance.  I bought a pressurized pot sand blaster and the difference is night and day.  They use a great deal of air but if you're not blasting something like a frame and just doing smaller stuff it works for intermittent use very well.  Uses a lot of sand too, but then it does so much better of a job.  I ran mine on a 12 cfm @90 compresser and it worked well for most stuff but for continuous use on very large areas I spliced in my 6.3 cfm@90 compressor for a total of over 18 cfm.

Edit:  I just noticed you were talking about media blasting a carburetor.  In that situation a pressure pot blaster might be overkill but I also wonder if a siphon blaster is going to do the job on that corroded carb with glass bead.

2nd edit:  In looking at that carb again I think it might be toast.  I think what you're going to find is that any blaster/media that is strong enough to remove the corrosion is going to damage the carb and any media/blaster that isn't going to damage the carb isn't going to be aggressive enough to remove the corrosion.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 12:27:08 PM by priya »

Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2011, 01:02:57 PM »
I'm kinda hoping the solvent soak will do most of the dirty work and blasting will most be for finish. The gunk isn't on there too hard. I can scrape it off, I'd just rather not do that since I end up scratching the metal when I try. We'll see. Worse case, I'll have to upgrade :)

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2011, 01:07:00 PM »
You would be surprised what a light dusting of even a mild glass will do to corrosion.  I'm affraid your throttle plates are trashed but will still work (just not the best)  You can buy a cheap-o-harbor freight blaster w/ a bag of glass media.  It will work great on small projects like carbs and small parts.  

You need a beefy compressor or will have to go in shifts.

For what you are doing a very inexpensive blaster will work well.  I used HF blasters for years, I just went through 1 cabinet and 4 guns/year.  I now have a $1500 compressor and a $4K Snap-On blast cabinet but use aftermarket guns and mademy own pickup.  I love it.

See if anyone local has one you can borrow.  I don't recommend blasting needles unless you are very carefull.

Make sure to really wash/clean/blow out everything good when finished.  You can't make sure enough on this.

After everything is finished and ready for reassembely, coat everything with a silicone spray.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2011, 03:05:41 PM »
I almost got everything torn down, but my vacuum piston seems to be stuck. I can't just lift it out for some reason. It seems to be stuck on something in the air horn. Is that normal? Is there a trick to it? Theres corrosion everywhere, so I can't really tell where 1 piece of metal starts and the other ends :) I tried prying a bit, but I REALLY dont want to break the assembly.

Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2011, 04:18:43 PM »
Gotta pic? I'm thinking you mean the choke pull off? If so there is just two bolts that hold it on.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2011, 05:25:35 PM »
Sure, here ya go. You can see my screwdriver prying on the part that's stuck. It has some play, but wont pull out any more. I can pull the horn up, then it catches on something, but nothing I can see. I even bent the tabs on the bottom a bit to make sure there's plenty of clearance. Whatever its catching on, I cant see it :(



Here's some other related parts that I was able to work out around the stuck part:



And here's a shot of how it's stuck from between the main body and air horn

« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 05:28:36 PM by blk-majik »

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2011, 05:55:12 PM »
I think I have a better throttle plate. I have so much stuff its unknown. But the carb might be available it seems I have 2 torn apart carbs. Let me know as I am stateside.



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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2011, 06:37:17 PM »
Thanks, I'll let you know if the restoration doesn't go so well. So far, it's not looking good  :'(

At this point, I'm really starting to think I might be better off just doing a head swap and going EFI. Maybe I'm a bit strange, but I find that stuff easier. I'd still love to get it working with what I've got, if for no other reason that learning experience and to know that I can do it :) I started pulling the intake manifold. That should give me a better idea.

In the mean time, if anyone knows why I can't get that vacuum piston out, I'm all ears!
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 06:43:25 PM by blk-majik »

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2011, 10:09:37 PM »
Psssssssssssssssssssst...  Psssssssssssssssssssssssst...  A 2150 sure would look nice on there.............

In leu of your budget race project, I have a setup I can take $100.00 off of. 

Let me know. 
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2011, 10:41:00 PM »
lol i know i know :) I got a guy locally who is willing to sell a full 4.0 EFI head assembly with intake and exhaust manifolds. He's asking $200, pretty sure I can get it for less. tempting...

No wiring harnesses or sensors, but if I went the megasquirt route, I dont need any of that junk, right? just run everything to the MS. I've never built a megasquirt controller myself, but I've worked on a few have a few friends in the area that have and would be happy to look over my shoulder. has anyone on here use megasquirt in an EFI conversion on a 258 yet? with a 4.0 head swap?

Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2011, 10:47:42 PM »
lol i know i know :) I got a guy locally who is willing to sell a full 4.0 EFI head assembly with intake and exhaust manifolds. He's asking $200, pretty sure I can get it for less. tempting...

No wiring harnesses or sensors, but if I went the megasquirt route, I dont need any of that junk, right? just run everything to the MS. I've never built a megasquirt controller myself, but I've worked on a few have a few friends in the area that have and would be happy to look over my shoulder. has anyone on here use megasquirt in an EFI conversion on a 258 yet? with a 4.0 head swap?
I've got everything in a box ready to be installed but I haven't got to it yet. I already have the 4.0 head installed and have an assembled MS, a harness that needs to be completed, 2000 intake, bored throttle body, injectors, AEM O2 sensor and gauge and fuel pump. I have to find the time and guts to go for it.
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Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2011, 08:37:39 AM »
Sure, here ya go. You can see my screwdriver prying on the part that's stuck. It has some play, but wont pull out any more. I can pull the horn up, then it catches on something, but nothing I can see. I even bent the tabs on the bottom a bit to make sure there's plenty of clearance. Whatever its catching on, I cant see it :(


No wonder it won't run  :o that piece is suppose to move freely (should slide up and down to move the metering rods in and out of the jets, stuck closed like that it can't fuel). There's nothing that holds that in, it's spring loaded, douse it with a penetrating oil and leave it be for a few hours, maybe you'll be able to break it free. I agree with others here, it may too late for that carb, you might be further ahead getting another one, even if it's a junkyard carb to rebuild.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2011, 03:49:34 PM »
This carb is likely toast then. I really pried on it, even bent it a bit. It's soaking in penetrating oil now, but my hopes aren't high.

I had the guy with the 4.0 head read the casting numbers off it. It's a 0630, which is pretty similar to the 7120. Anyone know the exact differences? Will the 0630 work well for the swap?

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2011, 04:12:51 PM »
Aparently, some do not have the hole for the coolant temp sensor, that is the difference that is claimed, as far as flow and all that  ??? supposed to be identical. My 97 4.0 does not have the hole, (0630 head), but at any rate it will work.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2011, 04:53:43 PM »
is the coolant temp sensor necessary? is there room to drill and tap to add one?

Offline shaggimo

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2011, 04:58:24 PM »
The boss for it is still there, so I don't see why not, it may just have a cap over it too, I'll have to look at mine a little closer.
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Offline Baskinator

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2011, 08:20:56 PM »
Boy, I was gone one day and you got a ton of replies! Yes, I used the Berryman's Chem-Dip from advance auto which my brother had sitting around (not many ways to get rid of it). It looks like you've got a lot of rust inside there, probably what's keeping that pump from moving. If the chemical dip is going to remove any of that, it will have to sit overnight, piece by piece because the 1gal bucket isn't close to big enough for the whole carb.

Even if you can get it all cleaned up, it still might need a new metering pump and most likely a new spring with it. You already got a new rebuild kit, so I'd say go for it. It doesn't come with that pump, but if you can get that carb to work you'll save hundreds of dollars. If you use the chem dip, which I think is completely necessary in your case, soak every little part (as long as it's metal) for as long as you can.

Just like shag said, the pump isn't held in by anything- it just sits around that rusty spring you can see. If you get it out without bending it too much, it should be fine with a good chemical soaking. Maybe try tapping on it lightly with something to loosen it and then use some needle nose pliers. You could always try bending those tabs back after you get it out.

I was under the impression that you should never media blast a carb. Even if it's a soft media, you can do just about the same thing with chemicals and very high pressure air, and not risk destroying the thing for good. I was amazed at how well my air gun worked by itself.

As for the intake manifold, I'm not quite sure what to do about the corrosion. It doesn't look good, but it ought to still work as long as the carb is fine.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2011, 04:03:48 PM »
So I have my hands full with engine stuff at the moment, and it's going to take a bit of time to get sorted out. Thats fine, but to keep things moving along, I'd like to switch gears and start discussing gearing (see what I did there?  8) )

First off, I need to figure out exactly what I'm dealing with. Lets try to identify my trans, transfer case and axles :)

For the trans, it's a Torqueflite 3-speed auto. It's a model A727, right? Either way, it's on its last leg... maybe even already shot. Since the car isn't titled (and not even currently running), we haven't had much time to test it, but we know it doesn't like to shift out of first, or stay in 2nd very long.  When changing the fluid, the valve body look pretty much destroyed. The fluid holes are worn way larger than they're supposed to be, and I'm pretty sure some of the holes we have aren't supposed to be there at all! The amount of metal shavings in the bottom of the pan weren't a good sign, either. Either way, in endurance racing, the heat concerns with an auto are a big problem, so swapping for a manual has many advantages. More on that later, as it's a whole nother can of worms

From what I've read, the transfer case is a New Process of some sort. My 81 SX4 has 2wd mode, so I know its not a NP 119. That means it's either a 128 or 129, right? And the main difference is that the 128 uses an open diff, while the 129 uses a viscous coupling diff? I REALLY hope its a 129! An open diff will be horrible for racing as it'll give us a lot of wheel spin in corners and make ti hard to put power down on exit. Viscous diff will be pretty forgiving for less skilled drivers on the team, and pretty durable. Any easy way to tell which I have without an running motor (ie: can't lift 1 wheel and see if that one spins when in gear)? I know there's a marking somewhere, but the it's caked in gunk and I can't find it. I can take a wire brush to it, but where is it, roughly? Either way, just to know my options, its there any swap potential?

For the axles.... this is where I start to get REALLY clueless :)  I believe I have a Dana30 in the front and a Dana35 in the back. No clue with my axle ratios are. Being a 1981 SX4, can we make any assumption? I understand that there might be some benefit in swapping to a Ford 8.8 rear axle.I might be able to justify that as a safety thing if I get one with disc brakes. That said, for crawling a lot of guys go with high-ratio 8.8's out of explorers. I think for me, a lower ratio would be better. I know a lot of Mustangs came with the 8.8 axle as well, with disc brakes and a locking limited slip rear diff! Would those work? No idea how wide they are.

What about a Dana 44 swap in the front? Any advantage? Again, gaining a limited slip diff would be my biggest wish. Any other options for the front?

« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 12:42:31 AM by blk-majik »

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2011, 04:26:38 PM »
If your trans is a 3spd automatic, it's probably a TorqueFlite 998. I believe they were used after 1980 or so.

The transfer case is most likely an NP129. They are pretty easy to identify. If you remove the skid plate (if it has one), there is a red, circular tag on the side that says the model along the top. It's probably a bit gunked up in your case, so just wipe it down to read it.

I don't know so much about what the differentials are, but I'm pretty sure the Eagles had Dana 30s in the rear.
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2011, 06:14:39 PM »
Most likely a TF998 transmission.  NP129 unless someone swapped it. You wouldn't notice the difference between the 129 and 128 on pavement. Dana 30 up front, AMC15 rear. You don't have much of an option up front. You don't want a solid axle in the front for racing. Your rear's weak point is the two piece axles. You can go with a Chrysler 8.25 out of a Jeep Cherokee however you have to matuch your front gear ratio. Your best bet would be to try to find a front axle out of a 4cyl car with 3.54 gears and find a rear axle with 3.55 gears. A Mustang axle wouldn't be worth the trouble
 An Explorer axle would work but may ne heavier than the Jeep axle and I've only seen them with 3.73 and lower ratios(higher number).
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 09:31:19 AM by eaglefreek »
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2011, 12:57:36 AM »
Great info, thanks guys :) I know I want a new trans, and I know I want rear disc brakes which seems easiest via a rear axle swap. Using that as a base, I think the most obvious way to make it happen is to just spec out the entire package around those two. If that means I re-use my front axle and transfercase, sweet :) If not, no big deal....

As far as transmission go, I see that later model Eagles came with a Borg Warner T5 5-speed. They're easy to find, cheap, and a pretty good trans. Google suggests that the swap is doable without too much drama. Does that seem to be the general consensus? Anyone here ever do this swap? Any other transmissions that are easy to swap in that are worth considering?

If the T5 is the best way to go, I know they're available from other platforms with different gear ratios. I had to guess on the numbers a bit, but if they're reasonably right, I calculate that the Eagle can hit just over 130mph with T5 out of an early 80's camaro or mustang. Would those trans swap in just as easily as a T5 from another AMC or Jeep? While on the subject, anyone know the gear ratios of the T5's that that Eagle came with?

this summer, i took the amc 15 out of my '79 spirit, and put in a frodulant 8.8 3.73 tracloc out of an explorer for my race car. the amc 15 axle, i could curle it no problem. 120lbs MAX. the frod axle, FORGET IT. i could BARELY pack it. its ATLEAST twice as heave as the amc axle.

Really? Wow, everything I read said that the 8.8 was relatively light! Oddly, the Mustang guys even thought they were light though... Either way, I guess perspective changes a lot when trying to consider road racing applications for rock crawling sources :) I may as well get used to that now. For a good laugh, try searching for ways to lower a Jeep  ;D

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2011, 01:04:07 AM »
Really? Wow, everything I read said that the 8.8 was relatively light! Oddly, the Mustang guys even thought they were light though... Either way, I guess perspective changes a lot when trying to consider road racing applications for rock crawling sources :) I may as well get used to that now. For a good laugh, try searching for ways to lower a Jeep  ;D

I can assure you the 8.8 is not that light. With the weight it's over 170lbs with the brakes.
It'll probably hold a lot more power than the AMC axle will though.

Offline maddog

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2011, 02:59:44 AM »
if you are wanting to go to disk brakes on the rear i believe i read that one of the guys on here swapped in a regular Cherokee axle and then used the disks from a newer model grand Cherokee and that they bolted right on without any modifications.
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Offline eaglefreek

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2011, 07:28:34 AM »
You can't convert a 2wd T5 to 4wd. Jeep or Eagle T5 is your only option for a T5 and as said previously, is not a World Class and would not handle much abuse . A Jeep AX15 is an option but requires some work to get it in there. A manual valve body A998 might do the trick.
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2011, 11:11:39 PM »
I finally got some time to get back to work on this. For now, I'm forgetting about transmissions and axels and everything other than the engine. Without an engine, the rest is useless. So i'm putting on blinders for a bit :)

I've been trying to decide if I really want to do the more ambitious EFI conversion with a head swap, or just throw a new carb on and hope for the best with everything as it is. Given the condition of the carb, and the filth around the valve cover gasket, I decided that I can't make up my mind until I pull the valve cover and intake manifold to get a better look at the condition of the head and valvetrain.

First off, there's a flex hose between the intake and exhaust manifolds. Whats this for? And why is it so difficult to remove? Pretty sure I stripped the locking nut on both ends trying to get it loose :(

Anyway, after (mostly) pulling the intake manifold (and mostly pulling the exhaust manifold while trying to totally remove the IM), and pulling the valve cover, here's what I found

























Not the worst I've seen, but pretty close! This thing is a mess. And until the carb seized up, it ran like this! That's a testament for the reliability of the 258!

Anyway, I'm going to have to disassemble and clean the head anyway, so may as well swap it for a 4.0L head. Get a valve cover upgrade while I'm at it, plus higher compression. Whats everyone's thoughts on the status of the short block? If I'm digging that deep, I'll pull the crank, pistons and rods while I'm at it and add a new set of bearings and seals. Think the pistons and cylinder walls should be in good shape, given the upper portion of the head and intake ports are this messed up?

That said, the more immediate question is that of a shopping list for the pull-a-part. Luckily a local junk yard has some fairly well stripped 90's Jeeps that look to have their entire long blocks with most everything else cleared out. Should be easy to just yank what I need. And there lies the question: what do i need?

What year/model Jeep's have the right head? Just anything with a 4.0L, or would it be easier to pair to a 258 with a specific year? Are there variations between years, and if so, which are best for the 258 swap? Any specific casting markings to look for?

Besides the head itself, what parts of the valvetrain will I want? How about the cam?

What about intake and exhaust manifolds, throttle body, injectors, wiring harness and ECU?
Any other odds and end's I'll need to grab?

Being I'm working with an 81 block, I'm pretty sure I'll have to heave the bottom end tapped to accept head bolts larger than the 7/16.... 1/2" iirc. Any other machining I'll have to do? I've read a bit about the CPS needing relocated for some reason. Any idea if that will be an issue?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 12:40:31 AM by blk-majik »

Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2011, 01:48:06 AM »
I can get a complete block with manifolds for $180... might be worth it since its not much more than the head+valce cover+manifolds. going to look over Joshpit's 4.0 swap guide once more. Might be easier.

http://www.amceaglenest.com/~iowaeagl/guide/index.php?title=Joshpit's_4.0_Swap_Article

Anyone know of any good free online VIN lookup tools to help figure out if the donor has a security system? Or an easier way besides bugging the dealership?


Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2011, 06:22:14 PM »
I went to a local pull-a-part and found more suitable Jeep's than I know what to do with :) I took tons of pics, but one thing I noticed is that I couldn't find any casting stamps on the heads. I got all the VINs and took as good of pics as I could, so hopefully you guys can help me figure out what's what

I got a 91 Laredo, mostly complete. The valve cover had both PCV valves pulled and was rusted. I'm a bit worried about rain water getting into the head/block via the PVC, but otherwise it had a full wiring harness, PCM, TB, coils, distributor, most sensors, TB, throttle cables, manifolds, starter, fuse box and bracket, fuel rails, injectors, etc. Mostly a complete engine bay. Here it is:



Next I found a 92 Laredo with what looked like a totally untouched and clean engine. I could see that the seal on the valve cover was shot, but otherwise it looked good. Also a complete package with full wiring harness, PCM, etc. Probably a better bet since it was in so much better condition. Any reason why a 91 would be better than a 92?



There was a 93 Cherokee of some sort that I spotted on my way out while the junk yard was trying to close. The distributor, coil and plugs were pulled, but most of it was still left in the engine bay. The otherwise it looked pretty good. Fuse box, wiring harness, pcm, manifolds, tb and linkage, fuel rail... all looked good.



There was a 94 Grand Cherokee. The distributor cap and plugs were pulled, exposing the shortblock to the elements. However, the valve-cover was still completely sealed, so the head is likely good. All the other stuff was there and looked good. The insurance company window markings indicated that it ran and drove before being scrapped, so that's a good sign!



And on the way out, I saw a 98 Cherokee with the valve cover, distributor cap, and manifolds already taken. The valvetrain looked better than than mine, even though these were exposed to the elements ;) Will a 98 work?



So that's my options after going through about 1/2 the junk yard :) I'm sure I can find some others, but did I find any jackpots a swap or a at least a head donor? Opinions on the best option of these? I'm thinking the 92 looks best so far. And anyone know how to tell if the wiring harnesses on these cars have the security chip option?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 06:32:31 PM by blk-majik »

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2011, 10:24:32 PM »


That shows where the stamp is. Just above the oil fill you see 7120.



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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2012, 03:28:06 PM »
Thanks mudkicker, I was looking on the side so no wonder I couldn't find it :)

casper - why are the 93-95's easier to swap than other models? Is it just a mounting issue? Think there would be any issues in using the block from a 93-95, but the electronics from a newer model?

I noticed a few significant changes in engine management on the 4.0's after 1999.  In 99, they switched to a JTEC+ PCM, which is easier to tune.

from 2000 and up used a distributorless direct ignition system. From a tuning perspective, I could create and ignition timing table using load vs rpm axis to optimize torque under all load situations.

I'm wondering if it would be possible to take just the block from a 93-95, and the ecu, harness, ignition and fueling system from a 2000. any thoughts?

Offline mudkicker715

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2012, 04:05:17 PM »
i think it was in 96 that they did away with the axle mount bosses on the block. the front axle on our eagles mounts to the left rear corner of the block. i dont know of any reason you couldnt use the later electronics on an earlier block tho.

it was there in 99 for sure. almost certain throughout the run it remained



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Offline IowaEagle

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2012, 06:09:06 PM »
The bosses, as far as I know remained present to the very end, just not drilled out.  I wonder if the Chinese versions, probably still in production have them?
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Offline blk-majik

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2012, 01:17:21 AM »
Found some low-level info on the wiring harness. Might be helpful if I end up going the full stand-alone route: http://www.painlessperformance.com/Manuals/65140.pdf

Has anyone here swapped a later model 4.0 into an Eagle? If so, any additional complications? I dont mind going a little out of the box with sensors and tuning, but I'd really hate to be the guinie pig in fabricating new engine mount brackets/

Also, can anyone give some feedback on the 'high torque' cams from the late 90's 4.0's? They're reference on the painless performance site and it's new to me

Offline dustybat13

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Re: Eagle Race Car! 81 SX4 Project
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2012, 04:59:00 PM »
I noticed it has been a couple of months since you last posted, so I was wondering if you have made it any farther.

My input on an engine choice is that it would depend on if you are planning on keeping the stock ecm to run it, or going with a megasquirt. I think that there would be some benefit to going with the newer engine if you are keeping the stock ecm as long as there is not a problem with the security chip. If you go with the megasquirt, then I would go with an engine that gives you the most power potential for the least cash.

Either way, I am looking forward to hearing about what your next step is going to be.
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